Talk:Final Fantasy VII/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

At least some of my remaining concerns have to addressed for a successful GA nomination. Since some claims may be very difficult to prove without access to the source, removing them seems to be acceptable since the article would definitely meet the "broad in coverage" criteria without them. However, a (short) paragraph about Advent Children and some sentences about the other games of the Compilation have to be provided. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Lead
Looks good.

Gameplay

 * "the world map can be traversed by foot, chocobos, airship, or submarine." English is not my first language, but shouldn't chocobo be in singular form here, too? Maybe give a very short explanation after the word like (ostrich-like birds) after chocobo, so that readers don't have to take a look at the main article to understand the term.


 * I don't think that miniaturized from "While characters are miniaturized on maps, the character models are more realistic and normal-scaled in combat." is really helpful to understand how the characters look to a reader who has not played the game.


 * The strange formulation "the player is restricted to a linear route within the city of Midgar." should be changed. Nobody else uses a formulation like this.


 * "and require frequent player interaction to proceed." This is true for every story-driven game and does not contain any useful information.


 * "The use of materia is a double-edged sword, however, as the more materia a character has equipped the physically weaker he or she becomes." This can be interpreted in a way that not using any materia is a genuine option for a normal player which I highly doubt.
 * "Certain materia also make the characters physically weaker." Better, but since only magic and summon materia has that effect, those two should be named instead of an unclear "certain". --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "This idea became popular with Final Fantasy fans" This claim needs a source directly after the sentence.


 * "A summon consists of a name for each summon materia, the name of the attack used by each summon," I think that this is not relevant information. Obviously, a "magic spell" has to have a name. I don't think that the attacks of the summons have a separate name is important to understand the game mechanics.


 * "and the end of the attack, during which the number of damage points inflicted appears." This is not only true for summons, but for any attack. I suggest removing it completely.

Plot

 * "of modern or near-future science fiction." What is modern science fiction in contrast to near-future science fiction? I don't understand.


 * "Fort Condor, a reactor that has a condor perched on top of it" There is obviously missing a word like gigantic or larger than house-sized.


 * "a small town called Kalm." It would be useful to know, that Kalm's architecture is heavily inspired by medieval Europe.


 * "Rocket Town, which is Cid's home" It would be more important to describe the huge rocket here than that it's Cid's home.


 * New concern: "The western continent features most of the accessible areas" This is probably not true if you have a look at the big cities Midgar and Junon on the eastern continent. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This map indicates that the western continent features more areas than the eastern continent, so I'm a little confused by what you're trying to say. The Prince (talk) 16:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "the village Wutai" Maybe two or three words should be added that Wutai is heavily inspired by old Japanese/Chinese villages. (It was a quite severe contrast to the rest of the locations.)
 * New concern Wutai is not located on the main western continent. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "such as the downed Gelnika, which was commissioned by Shinra to transport weapons and materia to be used against the WEAPONs deployed by the planet when Meteor was summoned by Sephiroth." The downed air frighter Gelnika please. The rest of the sentence seems to be very complicated for a reader who has not played the game at this point of the article. It does also not add any useful information to understand the setting of the game. Remove it.


 * "There is also a cave underwater where a key needed for use in the City of the Ancients lies." I don't think that this is important information to understand the setting of the game.


 * "Aeris Gainsborough, a flower merchant who has been pursued by the Turks since childhood;" Nobody understands what a "Turk" is without looking at the main article. Give a short description in this article (parentheses are okay in such cases).


 * "Barret Wallace, the leader of the anti-Shinra group AVALANCHE" I think anti-Shinra rebel group would be much better, since they are not only doing sitting blockades.


 * "Red XIII, a wise creature who was experimented on by Shinra scientists;" A short description of his physical appearance should be given.


 * "The game's character designer..." Question: Is the quote at the end of the chapter the single source used?


 * "For Tifa's design, Nomura had to decide whether to give her a miniskirt or pants. With input from other staff members of the game, he eventually selected a dark miniskirt, contrasted by Aeris' long, pink dress." Useless information garbage.
 * Strongly disagree. Costume is pretty high on the list of things to mention when it's the permanent look of the character throughout the entire game. If this has to go, then the beginning of the paragraph, which discusses hair style, has to go too. Davhorn (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with Davhorn. It's a little weird how a couple of sentences about Tifa's design is garbage information, while the other content isn't. Can this be re-added? The Prince (talk) 16:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * * Okay, "useless information garbage" was a little bit harsh, but I really don't think that it is important to know that there was a short thought period if Tifa should wear pants or a miniskirt. So, I fo for Davhorn's proposol to get rid of Cloud's hair, too. Although his spiky hair is probably more iconic than Tifa's miniskirt. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 22:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The time it took to decide on her look wasn't the point of the sentence, it was what influenced it and why they eventually went with one alternative over the other. Davhorn (talk) 17:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Outlook: The story chapter seems to be very long and may contain unnecessary detail.
 * FYI: user:Hydrokinetics12 did some good trimming on the article's story section: . Is this satisfactory? The Prince (talk) 23:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I've addressed your concerns so far. To answer your question about the character designs: Yes that citation is used to source the entire paragraph. I don't think citing every sentence is necessary when it's the same source. As far as the length of the story section goes, I really don't know what else to cut. I agree that it may be too long, but the fact is that FF7 had a long and complex story, and therefore it gets to be longer that other game plots. Do you have any suggestions on how to trim it further? Thanks for reviewing the article, BTW. The Prince (talk) 14:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Development

 * "SNES project and early development" Comment: This chapter contains quite interesting information (setting in New York City), but since I could not find any sources online I was a little bit concerned that it could be a hoax. However, the author who added the information seems to frequently edit videogame articles.
 * I don't think it's a hoax. The transcript of the interview can be found here. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "The first part of the story involved a character named "Hot Blooded Detective Joe" who was in pursuit of the main characters. The main characters managed to blow up the city of Midgar, which had already been developed for the story." So, this means that the main characters (played by the player) would have been evil? Since they blow up a whole city... And the detective would have been the antagonist?
 * According to they're rebels. Does the sentence need rewording to imply this? The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, with a closer look at it this quote has several issues: "Hot Blooded Detective Joe." is not a "name", but a description. 1 says, that they are successful blowing up Midgar, but 2 say it's only their goal. How is blowing up a whole city not evil? Okay, does not have to be included in the article, but I'm curious. ;-) --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this still a concern, 'cause I don't really know what you want me to do here. The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "The original script of Final Fantasy VII [...] which had already been developed for the story." Why is this in the chapter "Nintendo 64 project and Final Fantasy SGI" and not in the chapter "SNES project and early development"? Is something like "After the decision to develop the game for the Nintendo 64..." missing?
 * Moved to the other section. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "in a real time battle and incorporated interactive elements." Example for such an interactive element? Could be everything...
 * Removed. Wasn't mentioned in the ref. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "namely the presence of Aeris in the initial party and the ability to use Summons." If this means "Aeris was not present" and "summons were not implemented yet" it should be precisely written so.
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "was accompanied by a focus on a more realistic presentation" I dunno if you can call the design of Final Fantasy VII realistic in any way...
 * Really? I though FF7 and FF8 had a more realistic style, compared to e.g. FF9. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The style of Final Fantasy 8 and 10 is definitely more realistic. I guess I have to ask for a reference for this statement. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be too hard to find a reference for the claim that the design of FF 7 was more realistic than FF 1 - 6 if that statement is true. (I have never played one of them.) --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find a source. Should I remove it? The Prince (talk) 21:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * ", which challenged the development team." *rolls his eyes* Developing a high quality videogame is usually very challenging...
 * Removed. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "According to Kitase, "Right from the time the decision to go with CD was made he [Sakaguchi] set down a ground rule for the team saying, 'If the player becomes aware of the access times, we have failed'", demanding that an engrossing atmosphere be upheld, which led to the programming of various animations to activate while the game loaded data." While this sentence is probably okay, I personally don't understand what kind of animations are meant with that. I guess most likely the swirly intros before battles? Or even the animations of the characters after they defeated the enemies? (But after that, there are only some blue menu screens following...)
 * I don't understand it either. To be honest, it's a badly written sentence. Should it be removed? The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think so. Until somebody can explain this better. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed. The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "Yoshitaka Amano, was busy opening workshops and exhibitions in France and New York" This left me wondering what kind of workshops and exhibitions those were.
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Nomura's style was more reminiscent of manga and was considered easier to adapt." I guess "adapt" means that it was easier for the 3d designers to build the character models to resemble the characters on the character sheets drawn by Nomura in contrast to character sheets by Amano?
 * Yes, I believe that's what is meant. I reworded the sentence. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good, but now I have another issue with it: Let's not forget the huge difference in technology between 6 and 7 with the introduction of polygon models. Just how much more complicated would it have been to draw some of those tiny sprites for Final Fantasy < 7 based on a more realistic character sheet compared to a manga-inspired character sheet? It should be rewritten in a way like: "With regards to the switch to 3d models, it was easier for the designers to build the character models based on Nomura's artwork since his style was more reminiscent of manga in contrast to Amano's more realisitic style." But only if there is finally a reference found for this claim. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I am still hoping that somebody will have a deeper look at this sentence and its meaning. At least a source has to be found. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It may be in a magazine, but I couldn't find a reliable source for this on the web. Do you reckon we should just remove the sentence then? The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "Another development problem was a rushed production schedule; veteran series composer Nobuo Uematsu commented in the liner notes of the game's soundtrack: "There is one thing common in all the Final Fantasy games. None of them are complete"." The quote given does not support the first part of the sentence. I also don't really understand what he is trying to say with all this harvest stuff. Most likely that more effort should be put into the perfection of the most important parts of a game and not into adding more and more stuff. This is not really a problem of a rushed production schedule, since both approaches cost time. I also doubt that Final Fantasy VII suffered more than your average videogame from a rushed production schedule. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 22:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right. I removed it as it wasn't that necessary for the development section, which is already very big. The Prince (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Design and inspirations:


 * "refers to the game's atmosphere as "strong [and] dark"" Uhh, this quotation does not work. Was there a "," between strong and dark in the original quote? Because "strong dark" (incorrect English, but anyway) is not the same as "strong and dark". Is not every designer thinking that his game has a "strong" atmosphere? Formulations like "strong atmosphere" belong to the chapter with receptions by third parties.


 * "achieved through lighting effects he considers "the darkest of darkest"." I do not say that this should be removed, but Final Fantasy VII is not a dark game (in the literal sense) when you compare it with Doom or Thief...


 * "to "[use] as a framework for loftier ethical aspirations and ecologically conscious evangelism"." Yeah, yeah, I know what he means, but it is really hard to get for someone who has never played a Final Fantasy game. Maybe it would be better to rewrite parts like this with less direct lofty quotes from Japanese game designers and with more periphrases what is really meant.


 * "These concepts were reflected in names, such as "Sephiroth"" I don't think that you can expect from a (young) reader to know that there is a deeper meaning behind the name Sephiroth, so this has to be explained.


 * "Feeling Cloud could not die, due to his leading role, and the death of characters such as Barret was already too great a cliché in the Final Fantasy series and fiction in general, he expressed frustration with the frequent presentation of death in fiction as an awe-inspiring, often romantic idea centered around sacrifice and resurrection." The two parts of this long sentence do not fit together. Okay, Cloud is the main character and can't die. Okay, Barret's death would be a cliché in the Final Fantasy series. But what do these two things have to do with corny deaths in other works of fiction?


 * "As a result, Nomura suggested Aeris die and not return" Is this correct English?


 * I am really at a loss here. Since the sources used here are magazines (which I don't own) I don't know how to go about correcting the issues you pointed out. The info was added in by user:Ryu Kaze, who I'm pretty sure has retired as he hasn't contributed since October 2006. I left a note at the FF Wikiproject's talk page, so hopefully someone there can help out. The Prince (talk) 12:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I reworked the development section by merging some stubby paragraphs and removing the subtitles. I also removed the entire "Design and inspirations" paragraph as I had difficulty understanding it myself, and without using the magazine for reference, there really isn't anything else I can do. But I think the Development section already is comprehensive as it is, and if someone happens to have that magazine, they can re-add the content, starting from scratch. The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

North American release:


 * MAJOR FACTUAL ERROR: "The game's release in North America was preceded by a massive three-month marketing campaign, for which Sony allocated a US$100 million budget." The US$100 million budget was for the whole PlayStation platform, not just for Final Fantasy VII! This is a major factual error and I won't have a look at the rest of the article until someone confirms that other exceptional claims like this are actually supported by the sources given! --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I was just about to remove it, but then I realised you did it. It's a good thing you spotted that one out. There are some things I just don't notice. The Prince (talk) 20:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Several additions to gameplay and story were made for the game's North American release" Such as? That brings up more questions than answers it.
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * What of the fabled mis-print of the word "masterpiece" on the rear cover art with the floating i? There seems to be trouble discerning if this was part of the original N/A release or if it came during a subsequent printing.  I can't find enough reference to it to tell when it occurred in the games lifecycle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.41.175.74 (talk) 20:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Audio

 * "and that his favorite tune from the soundtrack is "One-Winged Angel"." Unnecessary, since ""One-Winged Angel", which has been described as Uematsu's "most recognizable contribution" to the music of the Final Fantasy series." delivers more interesting information.
 * Removed. The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Something for FA: I don't think a chapter about "Audio" is complete without mentioning "Aeris Theme", which is played right after Aeris' death, probably the most important single scene in the history of video games.
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "One of the most notable pieces from the soundtrack is "Aeris' Theme", which is played after Aeris is killed by Sephiroth. It has become popular among fans, and has inspired several arrangements." Thanks that you have written something about it. But the second sentence needs a source. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 21:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "Several tracks from the game have been remixed in subsequent Square productions, including Final Fantasy VII Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts." I wonder if music from FF VII was used in later productions where no characters from FF VII appeared? (It is not a requirement for GA to answer this question, but it would be good to know (for FA).)
 * You mean non-Square productions? The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, Square productions without characters from FF VII (FF VII characters were both in Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts). --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no idea. I don't think so, though. The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "The album has been met with approval from video game music sites, performers, and composers." Somebody has to check the notability of those sites, performers and composers and thus the notability of the paragraph.
 * Removed. The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No. If those video game music sites, performers, and composers are not notable, the whole album is not notable and the two remaining sentences need to be removed, too. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * They aren't notable (except Tommy Tallarico, but that's just one person) so I removed it. The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Reception
First part:


 * "prompting one business analyst to comment, "Sony redefined the role-playing game (RPG) category and expanded the conventional audience with the launch of Final Fantasy VII"." The term "one business analyst" sound really awkward. It should be changed to "prompting business analyst John Doe from Company to comment..."
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "Final Fantasy VII has sold over 9.8 million copies worldwide as of December 2005,[65] making it the highest-selling Final Fantasy title, and the second-best-selling PlayStation game." Gran Turismo has probably only shipped more units than FF VII sold according to that list. This seems to be important to me, since FF VII could thus even be the PlayStation game which has sold the most units. (This issue has not to be fixed for GA, but still...)
 * I removed it since I've been unsuccessful in finding a source for this. Once I find one, I'll add it back in. The Prince (talk) 13:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Critical response:


 * "GameFan called it "quite possibly the greatest game ever made"" This needs a reference.
 * I don't have the issue of that magazine, and I spent quite a lot of time searching the net without any luck. The best reference I could find was the back of the cover. Could this be a solution? The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Since it's such a strong claim, I don't think we can do without the issue number. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed it as I don't have that magazine. Someone who has it can re-add it with a citation. The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The chapter with praise is shorter than the chapter with critique. This seems to be a slight case of undue weight for a game which is considered to be one of the best ever. However, for GA it's okay. With the exception of ""Most FF aficionados will tell you VII, while very good, is hardly the best game in the series"" which seems to be original research itself, that is, a personal opinion stated as fact. I'd only accept this quote if it is backed up by a study asking a significant number of FF fans. Remove that part of the sentence otherwise.
 * Removed the quote. Do you think the section needs to mention more positive comments from reviewers? The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There are still some more important things to do and it's definitely not needed for GA. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I moved some content from the Legacy section to the Critical response section, as it was actually praise rather than legacy. The Prince (talk) 16:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "two of the reviewers placing both Final Fantasy VIII and Final Fantasy X above it." This is not clear. Were those two games even higher on the overrated list or what?
 * None of the reviewers claimed that both FF8 and FFX were better, so I removed it. The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "The game has also been the subject of criticism from parents concerned with violence in video games" This very general claim should only remain in the article if there was really criticism except that from the nutjobs mentioned afterwards.
 * Removed. The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's still the same. Only a little bit shorter. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this what you had in mind? The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "Following the event, several parents of children murdered in the massacre filed a US$5 billion lawsuit against companies that published and developed video games." If you talk about it, you should say that the lawsuit was unsuccessful in the end or the reader might wonder.
 * Done. Couldn't find a source though. Is this a problem? The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. It needs a source. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Found one: . It's stated on the third page. The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Legacy:


 * "The game's popularity and open-ended nature also led the director and writer to establish a plot-related connection between Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X, another popular Final Fantasy title." Such as? This needs at least one, better two examples, since it is not obvious. At least to me, who has also played FF X.
 * I added some content. The plot connection seems to be from FFX-2, the sequel to FFX, so I changed it to "between FF7 and the FFX canon. The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not just simply saying Final Fantasy X-2 instead of FFX canon which sound really strange. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "The game's legacy includes the acceptance and standard inclusion of full motion video sequences in role-playing games, as well as significant advancement in computer graphics." Source please.
 * Couldn't find one, so I incorporated some of it into the next sentence. The Prince (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Related media and merchandise

 * "During development of the game's sequel, Final Fantasy VII Advent Children," Sequel is not the right word for a film following a game.
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 22:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just saying film is maybe not the right word for a film about the future events regarding the story of the game, but it's okay for GA. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See third point. The Prince (talk) 21:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "based in the world and continuity of Final Fantasy VII." I'd prefer storyline to continuity.
 * Done. The Prince (talk) 22:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 *  Why is there so much information about two novellas in this chapter, but no information on "Advent Children", "Before Crisis", "Crisis Core" and "Dirge of Cerberus"? Those are far more important and have to be discussed in this chapter, especially "Advent Children".
 * I figured I'd leave it out since there's already a main article covering those titles: Compilation of Final Fantasy VII. Do you think the section needs information from those titles anyway? The Prince (talk) 22:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 *  Just because a sub-subject has its own article does not mean you do not have to provide some basic information in the main article. An article about Final Fantasy VII without a (short) paragraph about Advent Children seems very incomplete to me. The other titles should be mentioned in one sentence each at least. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I added a paragraph mentioning all the titles that have been released in the Compilation. Does it look okay? The Prince (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "It has been speculated that the Compilation will also include an enhanced remake of the original Final Fantasy VII for the PlayStation 3. [...]" This whole chapter is way too long regarding that a production of a remake has never been really considered.
 * I trimmed it some. Is it good now? The Prince (talk) 22:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)