Talk:Final Fantasy XII/Archive 4

Ivalice, Region/World
I have no qualms about the semantics of calling Ivalice a region or a world... But what I do have a problem with is the sound. Like it doesn't sound poetic enough to call something "region or world". You don't see or produce that type of writing. Consider a better sounding alternative. Or it should be left at world. --Htmlism 15:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, considering there are two sources (one from the game, and one from the official website) that claim Ivalice is a world -- that is my vote for the term. Noah 15:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, not focusing on the semantics. How about "Ivalice, a region in a world of the same name". It sounds hokey, but it will only continue to sound hokey by keeping both terms in there. You could keep making the explanation longer and longer and more clear about the discrepancy, but it would no longer serve as a short apositive mid-sentence. --Htmlism 15:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The next sentence in that paragraph explains that Ivalice consists of the three continents Ordalia, etc etc... My vote is to leave it how it is. "world of Ivalice", then have the next part explain that Ivalice also consists of the other continents. Two official sources is enough evidence for me that the world/planet name is, in fact, Ivalice. Noah 15:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I vote to keep the mention of region while maintaining the view of the world - "this region of (the world) Ivalice". I'll edit it to make it in-line with the original source. And I don't think we need too much reference for the world part. One official source is enough. I'll remove it, just to concentrate on improving the article. For the most part, region can be anything in geographical terms: upper colorado region, kansai region. See also Region. 私はBluerfnです 05:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I also move to reword the sentence so that the paragaraph can focus on the exact location where the story took place - a region in the large world called Ivalice. 私はBluerfnです 06:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but I think the latest edit -- is too wordy. I'm going to change it back to "This region consists of..." instead of "This region, where the story takes place,..." because it was already established prior in the paragraph where "the story takes place." Makes sense? Noah 12:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, all right. As long as it makes sense. 私はBluerfnです 14:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * wow, this is kinda dumb, just saying... why not "a place called Ivalice" to get over this world/region crap... -Xornok 14:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Link to Final Fantasy Forums.net
I was wondering if it would be possible to add a link to Final Fantasy Forums.net on the FFXII article? I think people will need a great place to discuss the newly Final Fantasy game. Seeing as there aren't any discussion forum for FFXII, you know. Just an ideal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.194.52.104 (talk) 19:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Sorry, but the site requires registration to just view its contents, thus it is not a good external link per our external links guideline. -- ReyBrujo 21:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah so? Is that a problem you're trying to say here? All you have to do is click on the Register link on that site and click on the validation link that was sent to your email address (this is really to prevent from any ad spammers/bots on the forum). It's not that hard unless you're lazy. --82.194.52.104 21:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, another problem is that it's a forum which also goes against policy. Axem Titanium 22:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You are thinking like a specialized user, not as a casual user. A casual user who arrives here won't be registering in a forum to get to see the different discussions. Thus, it is not useful for casual users, which may be 50% of the users who arrive here. -- ReyBrujo 22:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay you might be right here but trust me when I say this. The people to this site will be happy about having a link to that FF site on this article, believe me. And especially when the game has just been released out to the US. Believe me. Let's give it a shot, ya. And I'm not here to advertise or promote that site in any means.
 * Of course you're not. You're only arguing vehemently for its inclusion. Unfortunately, we can't violate two criteria for external links just for your site. Axem Titanium 23:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

All Ages?
Does anyone find it strange that Cero gave this game an All Ages rating, while ESRB still gave it a Teen rating? Is this game supposed to be more mild han the other ones, I mean KHII's rating was higher than this!
 * Rating and censoring for the youth market are generally more lenient in Japan than in the West.—ウルタプ 00:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile parts of the game where edited out for the japan release...Wengero 06:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This may be, but the other Final Fantasies got higher ratings than this. Especially FF8. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.7.180.238 (talk • contribs).
 * And maybe they just didn't find that one scene or word that provoced them to a rating raise? It's not nessecarily a milder game by any other means...62.92.35.24 19:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)Senta Gorgh

Lead section
The lead section is too long. The final three paragraphs should be distributed to sections (probably development and audio) to keep the lead at three paragraphs. &mdash; Deckill e r 16:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Character Names aren't Japanese
So, why keep their names as Katakana? After I ask this question, I shall look at the other FF games, particularly 10's, which was a feature article. KyuuA4 20:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I don't understand your question. The katakana that appears in the article is exactly what shows up in the Japanese version of the game. Axem Titanium 00:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Looking at the other FF games articles, such as Final Fantasy VI, VII, VIII etc, the characters names in the plot section aren't written with their katakana equivalent. Perhaps that's why this person asked. 私はBluerfnです 09:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Script
Is there a copy of the English script I can find anywhere? Jachra 09:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Whoever came up with the idea of pasting the whole script onto the main article is an absolute genius —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.159.35.98 (talk • contribs).

Official link
Added the official UK and european site link. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.69.17.9 (talk) 12:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC).
 * You also replaced the previous fansite link with FF12 Europe's, which is already discussed above. Please don't do so again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.97.249.143 (talk) 18:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC).


 * yer i did that. That other site is closed...any point? Then you removed the official european site. Dont do it again? What you gonna do about it? Right removed the fansite, no fansites will solve the issue. Official sites are the way! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.69.17.9 (talk • contribs).


 * Actually, I didn't remove the official European site. It's still there, so I don't know what you're talking about.  And as for the fansite being closed, read the news on it:  it will be back up in a couple days.

Use of Sanskrit
Considering it's the first time I've heard a real-world language used in a Final Fantasy (barring Latin, and even then the use was not cultural), would it be worth mentioning the employment of Sanskrit as the language of Bhujerba? -- Hidoshi 08:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you can, if you give references, like a Sanskrit dictionary or something. But that's just me. 私はBluerfnです 08:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, there was a bit of greek writing in some FMVs from Final Fantasy VIII. But I guess that's really irrelevant. --TheEmulatorGuy 05:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Critical Response
This seems out of place:


 * It was praised for its seamless transitions between FMV segments and the in-game engine.[28]

I'll leave it, but I'm sure somebody can find a better way to stick that in there. If not, I would recommend moving it. -- Mellesime 12:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's referring to the review that it's citing but I'm sure a better place can be found. Axem Titanium 00:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Map-Ressource Website
How about adding a link to the Map-Ressource http://www.ff12maps.com to the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lucleonhart (talk • contribs) 16:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It doesn't seem like the most helpful site to the average reader (who may or may not be a gamer, mind you). Best if you didn't add it. Axem Titanium 00:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Change of fon to von
I changed Basch fon Rosenberg to Basch von Rosenberg in this article. It's obvious to anyone who's played the game with subtitles on that this is the correct spelling. If you need further proof:

Google search: "basch von rosenberg" 1109 results

Google search: "basch fon rosenberg" 76 results

The translation is clearly what people are tripping up on, but we're not spelling Baflear or Furan those ways in the North American version of the game. -Oatmeal batman 19:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Uhhhh... no. See this, at around 3:40 into the video. It is clearly pronounced AND written "Basch fon Ronsenburg". Axem Titanium 20:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup, it's fon, NOT von. Don't know why this is such a problem for people.  Also, the reason you got those Google results is because you spelled his last name incorrectly as well.  It's not Rosenburg; it's Ronsenburg.  Geeze. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.111.114.59 (talk) 08:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It is sad that because of people's ignorance, we had to resort to putting editorial comments to that section. Now I see life as editor. Perhaps a screenshot of that name might quell the ignorant masses? 私はBluerfnです 18:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Correct, it is clearly pronounced AND also written "Basch fon Ronsenburg", not "Basch von Rosenburg." I recognize his name before that was even posted and after all, Basch's name is really "Basch fon Ronsenburg". Sjones23 00:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Use of Political Science Terms
The article uses political science terms like city-state and kingdom incorrectly. As Square Enix itself uses these terms correctly in the game, I've corrected them. Archadia and Rozarria are empires (it's Flash, so no direct link). Prior to the events in the game, they were both city-states. Dalmasca is a kingdom which control(s|led) at least two cities Rabanastre and Nalbina, multiple villages, and unsettled territory. Clearly, it is not a city-state. Jaybeeunix 21:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Battle systems
I have a few questions. The ATB system used in most of the FF series and CTB used in FFX are not used in FFXII, right? The real-time battle system was used in FFXI and FFXII and will be used in FFXIII. What is the battle system all about? Is it real or turn-based? Sjones23 00:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Question
I have a few questions. Is October 31 Halloween? Was FFXII released on Halloween in North America? So, when will I help anyone on the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sjones23 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Spoiler Warning: Necessary!
This article needs a spoiler warning from the beginning of "Plot" to the end of "Story". The cute little advisories in the code encouraging people to not edit in spoiler warnings makes no sense. Wikipedia has spoiler warnings for a reason, and it is indeed possible that someone looking for generic info could accidentally read a spoiler since it isn't marked. At the very least, spoiler tags will reduce one's chances of having the game spoiled for them. Does adding a spoiler warning take away from the article's "Good" status? If not, I see no reason why a warning can't be added. I myself have played FFXII to completion, but I am looking out for others (unlike some people, apparently). User918 18:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've finished playing it too. Actually it's part of the WP:FF Manual of Style, and it's an unofficial policy by WP:FF and WP:SE editors not to include spoiler warnings. This also has been discussed to death here. 私はBluerです 17:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Then it's going back in. If you happen to see the spoiler warning removed, please take it upon yourself to add it back in. In the code, add right under the word "Plot" and  at the very end of the "Story" section. Thank you for the information, 私はBluerです. User918 18:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

According to Karitehit, is redundant to put a spoiler warning in the text. However, a new reader does *not* know for sure if the "Story" section was written to have spoilers or not! It only seems redundant if you already know how the article was written. It is stubborn to assume that every reader should know that there are spoilers in the text. Do you realize how many random people stumble upon these FF articles, looking for general information before they play? They need to know where the spoilers are; it doesn't hurt anything to include them. User918 18:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "Do you realize how many random people stumble upon these FF articles, looking for general information before they play?" -User918
 * I'm guessing you have statistics? 私はBluerです 19:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's disappointing that you are not looking out for those who may not realize how these articles have been written. I don't have statistics (what kind of question is that), but you'd have to be a fool to think there's no benefit to using spoiler tags. Although, I will say if you type in "Final Fantasy XII" into Google, it's the third site listed. Do you guys just maintain these articles to entertain yourselves? SPOILER TAGS ARE NECESSARY. User918 19:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a policy, you can choose to follow it or not, but Wikipedia's not a democracy so you'll be facing quite an opposition. Take it from me, you're better off adding useful and reliable information, like what I opted to do, instead of discussing things like this. I'll direct you here again, and here. Good day. 私はBluerです 20:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia not being a democracy has nothing to do with it. There's a complete lack of common sense in not adding spoiler warnings. My argument basically starts and ends there; all the extra baggage is because of the borderline nonsensible reasons I've read explaining why spoiler warnings are unnecessary. I of course will add information that I find useful when I can, but I view the lack of spoiler warnings as something that is not ideal, Democracy or not. User918 20:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ, there is a complete lack of common sense in having spoiler warnings. I'll summarize this for you:
 * It doesn't matter if the game is spoiled for people. This is the exact same reason it doesn't matter if people are offended by images depicting genitalia. Wikipedia is not censored (please don't try to claim spoiler warnings aren't censorship)
 * It is part of the Manual of Style as well as a general consensus on WP:FF NOT TO USE SPOILER WARNINGS
 * It is redundant in the fact that "plot" implies revelation of "plot", we don't need a large tag saying that it's going to reveal "plot". --Teggles 06:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

User918, I recommend dropping this immediately, because the consensus is firmly in place. &mdash; Deckiller 09:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree against not including spoiler warnings. Someone who visits Wikipedia regularly will already know that the site includes spoilers, but someone who simply wants information on the game, and has little or no experience with Wikipedia, will not. If you Google the title of this game, the Wiki entry is second from the top- ample chance that someone who simply wants to know the basics (without being spoiled much) will stumble upon the article.


 * However... this article doesn't really have much spoilers anyway- only up to quite early in the game, which sort of makes the argument moot anyway. I know people have finished this game already- why is there nothing past Vaan's sneaking into the palace??  Sarrandúin  [ Talk +  Contribs  ] 02:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because the story section needs a rewrite and expansion. 私はBluerです 07:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Shadow of the Colossus, a videogame article, is a featured article, it appeared in the main page! And guess what? It has no spoiler warning tags! Somehow justifies that we don't need to put spoiler tags to create a good article. 私はBluerです 05:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Howdy guys, SPOILER WARNING would help. While i'm playing the game at home in the evenings, I like to read interesting tad-bits of trivia about the game while i'm on my lunch break at work. I don't want to know what happens next in the plot. SPOILER WARNING IT. Sits69 11:31, 27 February 2007 (GMT)

WP:GA
I'd like to put this GA nominee on hold. It needs extensive pruning of game-guidish material, and contains second person perspective. Please remedy these changes, then come back.  bibliomaniac 1  5  01:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll give the article a good sweep today or tomorrow. &mdash; Deckiller 12:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Development section
I just really need to point out that the first paragraph of the 'Development' section of the article uses the word 'veteran' eleven times. It's really irritating to read. Wtstar 16:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Story section
Great write up on the story section! But I think we need to do some rewrite, to adjust length, grammar, references, and check for needless bits of the story, OR and fancruft. 私はBluerです 22:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact, I volunteer to do so! It'll be ready in two days, God willing! 私はBluerです 06:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The story section needs to be reduced by half; editing should emphasize compressing information in fewer words, removing excess information, removing redundnacies, and OR/Fancruft. References from the script are also in order. &mdash; Deckiller 11:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the pointers. 私はBluerです 13:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I have finished rewriting the summary of the story. Though it ails me somewhat, editors may correct any mistakes there. And we are in need of relevant accompanying pictures. 私はBluerです 07:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

GA Failed
This article has failed in accordance with part 5 of the GA Criteria. The article is not stable at the moment. Due to this I will not pass the article. Sorry, once the article has become more stable, you may renominate it. Funpika 23:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * 1) Overall:
 * a Pass/Fail:
 * a Pass/Fail:


 * Stability usually refers to edit wars, not expansion to a seciton by one editor. &mdash; Deckiller 23:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This decision is being reviewed on Good article review. &mdash; Deckiller 13:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining your problem. I am now PASSING this article. Funpika 15:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This part a tad confusing
Don't have time to edit at the moment, but wanted to point out that under the "Battle System" heading the following passage is confusing "When any current party member is knocked out, the player may substitute him or her with one of the other inactive characters." I understand what the writer is trying to say, that you can sub out for a knocked out member, but that could also be read that this is the ONLY time you may switch out a member. The only time you can NOT switch out a member is when they are being targeted... including targeted with an allied or self ability. I think there are certain status effects which prevent subing also. Thanks for hearing me out, trying to add constructive thought. Inseeisyou 21:00, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not experienced, but still...
Um, I don't know anything about how to edit, but yesterday I had to fix the article. Somebody put the same annoying phrase in about 500 times in a row (check out the history, it was on the 27th). I'm not experienced, so can someone check over the article to make sure I didn't miss anything/mess it up? Thanks. Chrisalbro 23:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure if you missed anything, it's been fixed by now- this is a very trafficked article. For future reference, you can easily revert something by going to the page's history (at the top of the page), finding and clicking the revision before the vandalism, and then editting that revision (it'll warn you that you're editting an old one) and save it. That way, you don't miss anything! :)  Sarrandúin  [ Talk +  Contribs  ] 01:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)