Talk:Final Solution/Archive 2

Kamianets-Podilskyi repetition
Please note that the newly added mention of the Kamianets-Podilskyi massacre by in section "Phase one: killing squads of Operation Barbarossa" has already been featured in the below section titled "Final Solution in Reichskommissariat Ukraine." Either Chianti (139 edits since 2015) did not read the whole article, or felt it necessary to mention the massacre earlier first. The newly added line was skilfully copy-edited by User:0xF8E8 who nevertheless left the second mention of the massacre as is. Next edit pending.  Poeticbent  talk 02:56, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

The scope of the term 'Final Solution'
One might note that this term is a fairly common pre-war term for the removal of minority populations. The correct term of this section of the Wiki ought be 'final solution to the jewish problem'.

Search eg google 'final solution to the german question', and also eg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution_of_the_Czech_Question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia

The Rise of the Great Powers 1648 - 1815 https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1317872843 Derek Mckay, ‎H.M. Scott - 2014 - ‎History ther partition as a final solution to the Polish question, for the situation created by the second partition was intrinsically unstable. Catherine's troops remained in ...

I don't deny the Holocaust did not occur, but 'final solution' is not identically equal to it.

One suspects that the concentration on the Holocaust is intended to hide the crimes of the allies, committed after the war (expulsion of some ten million people from their homes). Wendy.krieger (talk) 11:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Don't be utterly ridiculous. The "Final Solution of the Jewsih Question" is one of the key phrases associated with the Holocaust.  And it has nothing to do with the 'crimes of the Allies' - and the expulsion of the German minorities from the various other countries in the East was to remove a constant source of irritation/temptation of the German nation for pan-Germanism.  It was never considered a 'crime' - sad that it had to happen, but several wars had already been the result of German nationalism.  The phrase "Final Solution ..." is more than Reliably Sourced many times in Wikipedia.  My own private library has dozens of volumes by the most highly regarded historians written in English or translated in English referring to it. 98.67.190.222 (talk) 19:00, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The term 'final solution to the x question' dates back to the 17th century. You can find it's a current idiom with the meaning of 'move the x out of here' for x = irish, indian, negro, muslim, japanese.  In the case of indian and japanese, it entailed the removal of the populations, on one case the 'trail of tears', in the second, into concentration camps in the mississippi.  George Taski (the Star-trek actor) was a victim of it.


 * The page is 'final solution', not 'final solution to the jewish question'. There are other cases of 'final solution to x question', and this ought be noted here.  "Final Solution" simply means 'move the people out of here'.  That's what Jackson did with the Indians, and what Jefferson would do with the Negros.  It's actually incorrect to suppose that 'final solution' to equal a licence to bulk murder, is actually an abuse of term.  It does not lead to this with the exceptions where there is no place to move the people to.  The German decision for execution was made during the war (1941).  It ought serve as a warning that any racial prejudice ought decend through this stage, and then, where the means exist, the execution of some form of it.


 * We might note that the popularity of polish jokes in the 60s etc, were an exact response to the 'final solution of the german question', and the expelling of millions of germans to other countries (including the USA), whence this notion. Wendy.krieger (talk) 10:53, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "One suspects that the concentration on the Holocaust is intended to hide the crimes of the allies, committed after the war (expulsion of some ten million people from their homes)." Talk pages are not a forum, nor a place for negationism. GABgab 16:35, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Banner at top of article states: "This article is about the Nazi Germany policy. For other uses, see Final Solution (disambiguation)." Final Solution (disambiguation) states: "Final Solution primarily refers to the Nazi plan to kill all the Jews in Europe which culminated in the Holocaust." Final Solution (disambiguation) then goes on to list other uses of this term, which do not include "the expelling of millions of germans to other countries" (sic) or "what Jackson did with the Indians, and what Jefferson would do with the Negros." (sic) Mick gold (talk) 23:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * There are a number of sources which extend the use of the term Final Solution to Nazi extermination policy of Gypsies. E.g.


 * 1) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yqmYJiVui9UC&pg=PA234&dq=final+solution+of+the+gypsy+question&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=final%20solution%20of%20the%20gypsy%20question&f=false
 * 2) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bM8OEiuoKhEC&pg=PA181&dq=final+solution+of+the+gypsy+question&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=final%20solution%20of%20the%20gypsy%20question&f=false
 * 3) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vsrJLASVC3QC&pg=PA378&dq=final+solution+of+the+gypsy+question&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=final%20solution%20of%20the%20gypsy%20question&f=false


 * In particular the phrase was used by Heinrich Himmler, in 1938. Guns of brixham (talk) 18:20, 21 September 2016 (UTC) I propose to add this in to the article.
 * Good point. We have the subject partially covered at Porajmos also, even though our article about Porajmos does not use the phrase "Final Solution" even once (!) which might explain why "the Final Solution of the Gypsy question" hasn't been elaborated on in here (Hancock & Karanth, 235; Browning, 181; Friedman, 378). Nevertheless, the Porajmos article also states that: "Society for Threatened Peoples estimates the Romani deaths at 277,100.[37] Martin Gilbert estimates that a total of more than 220,000 of the 700,000 Romani in Europe were killed, including 15,000 (mainly from the Soviet Union) in Mauthausen in January–May 1945.[38] The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum cites scholars who estimate the number of Sinti and Roma killed as between 220,000 and 500,000.[25] Sybil Milton, a historian at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Research Institute, estimated the number of lives lost as "something between a half-million and a million-and-a-half".[2][39]"  Poeticbent  talk 19:57, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Guns of Brigham blocked as sock per Sockpuppet investigations/Dalai lama ding dong. This is getting a bit disenhartening.  Poeticbent  talk 07:40, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Phase two: death camps of the General Government
The title says General Government, the text informs among others about Słonim and Auschwitz, both outside GG.Xx236 (talk) 06:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Section title is "... death camps of the General Government" not "General Government" period. Death camps of Operation Reinhard – all of which were built in General Government – were distinctly different from a network of concentration camps such as Auschwitz complex which included 44 subcamps with dozens of industrial plants and livestock farms. One subcamp of Auschwitz was named Birkenau. Construction of Auschwitz II-Birkenau began in October 1941. Birkenau was repurposed as an extermination camp around March 1942 when the Final Solution was officially launched at Wannsee. Auschwitz and Chełmno were situated in Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany (in Provinz Oberschlesien, and Reichsgau Wartheland respectively), therefore Auschwitz would probably have to be further elaborated on and/or put under a different section title, similar to ghetto uprisings which were not confined to General Government either, but spread out across many territories. Let me see what I can do,  Poeticbent  talk 14:27, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Broken animated map?
A link to an animated map has been removed from "Ext. links" because it does not work. In fact it works, at least in Firefox and MS Edge, and its terse wording and animation may have added something to the Wiki page. It is only unfortunate that the closing words of the clip are limited to the amount of killed European Jews, which was the main and most important outcome of "The Final Solution (The Holocaust, The Shoah)", but not the only one, particularly if we consider the clip's title and its somewhat ambiguous/imprecise meaning. Carlotm (talk) 21:08, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't know what happened. The video commentary did not work when I clicked on it originally, but after reading you post, I double-checked and surprisingly, it seems to be working fine now. I use Firefox like you said. My only negative impression (seriously) after watching the actual video is that the map of the Holocaust does not show the borders of Poland in 1939, as if Poland did not exist before the German-Soviet conflict of 1941. The map shows only the German (green) and the Soviet (yellow) occupied territories, with demarcation line in between. However, the nationality of the victims did matter, because the Jews of Poland had nothing to do with Bolshevism, and they were the first to die at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen across the formerly Soviet-occupied eastern Poland. The commentary seems hardly acceptable. It is not only biased, but also riddled with clichés and painful omissions.  Poeticbent  talk 22:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Addendum: The video commentary says (at 5:13): "the first victims of the massive gas operations were Jews from Slovakia during the month of May 1942." – Please note, adjective "massive" is a misrepresentation of fact. Compare with commentary by Christopher Browning: "in 1942 Birkenau was central to the gassing of Silesian Jews [between May 5 and June 17, 20,000 Silesian Jews were deported to Birkenau. In August 1942 another 10,000-13,000 Silesian Jews were gassed] ... In contrast, only the last 8 of 57 Slovak transports in 1942, carrying 7,700 out of the total of 58,000 deportees, were family transports to Birkenau, subjected to selection and gassing ... In short, in 1942 Birkenau was central to the gassing of Silesian Jews, but only peripheral to that of Slovakian Jews." (p. 544, The Origins of the Final Solution, end of quote)  – Meanwhile, the video commentary makes no mention of Silesian Jews whatsoever!  Poeticbent  talk  13:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

The timeline
On 18 December 1941, Himmler asked Hitler, "What to do with the Jews of Russia?" ?
 * The context suggests the dialog took place in 1940. Xx236 (talk) 12:00, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read again. The section called "Phase one" is only about 1941.  Poeticbent  talk 05:31, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * After murdering many Jews Himmler asks "What to do?''. Strange.
 * The phrase about December goes before the description of 1941 crimes.Xx236 (talk) 06:40, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I see it now; about the 18 December 1941 Himmler's note paragraph. ✅.  Poeticbent  talk 14:52, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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"Das Amt" and the complicity of the Foreign Office
The article needs to include recent discoveries published by Conze et al, in "Das Amt" which makes it clear that at least as early as 1941 the German Foreign office was complicit in the destruction of European Jewry. Mathglot (talk) 09:50, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

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David Cesarani's "Final Solution"
David Cesarani's Final Solution: The Fate Of The European Jews 1933-49 (2016) is an important overview of this subject, which synthesises the latest research in several areas. The thrust of Cesarani's narrative is how haphazard and inconsistent Nazi policy was towards the Jews. Above all, Cesarani argues the Final Solution was shaped by the fast-changing conditions of war. For Cesarani, the fact that the Nazis were ultimately successful in killing 5 to 6 million Jews was not due to the efficiency of the Third Reich or the clarity of their policies. "Rather, the catastrophic rate of killing was due to German persistence… and the duration of the murderous campaigns. This last factor was largely a consequence of allied military failure." (Cesarani, Final Solution, p. 796) I have added a summary of Cesarani to the "Historiographic debate about the decision".

I noticed that the 16 December 1941 statement by Hans Frank, "But what will happen to the Jews? Do you believe they will be lodged in settlements in Ostland? In Berlin, we were told: why all this trouble; we cannot use them in the Ostland or the Reichskommissariat either; liquidate them yourselves!" is in the article twice. First, towards the end of the Barbarossa section, and second, towards the end of the Historiographic debate. I think it works well the first time it is quoted, no need to repeat it in historiographic section. I've replaced it with part of Himmler's 4 October 1943 Posen speech. Cesarani notes that as the German military position worsened in 1943, the Nazi high command became more explicit about the Final Solution and used knowledge of "the fate of the Jews as a sort of blood bond to tie the civil and military leadership to the Nazi cause."

I've left the Ron Rosenbaum quote in at the end of Historiographic debate. I'm not sure if it adds anything to the article, but would like to hear from others whether it should be removed. Mick gold (talk) 15:13, 13 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Short paragraph from Ron Rosenbaum can safely be removed because it adds nothing to the narrative as the (possibly unintended) article closing statement. – By the same token, "blood bond" quotation from Himmler is insufficient without some kind of ending paragraph along the line of what User:Mick gold said right above in his own voice. You can do it.  Poeticbent  talk 03:48, 6 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I've changed the final para of Historiographic debate, replacing Rosenbaum with a more general summary of the situation from Himmler, per comment of  Poeticbent  above. Mick gold (talk) 18:17, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

The final solution and the use of the words 'extermination' 'extermination camps'
The Wannasse conference is where they planned the 'expulsion' of the jews, no one ever use the words extermination on paper, the closest thing to that happening was when they liquidated the ghettos' thanks to the SS office, but the wannasse conference never talked about extermination.

"that extermination camps such as Auschwitz II Birkenau and Treblinka were fitted with permanent gas chambers to kill large numbers of Jews in a relatively short period of time"

Not really, they had crematoriums built to get rid of bodies of course, but their preferred method for getting rid of the mentally/physically handicap was to gas them and then send them back to loved ones as ashes. Inside the camps they had over 1 million people in a camp meant for just 100k, so to think that no one would ever die there is crazy, even if the crematoriums were used to cover up the murders. The people they deemed unfit to do physical labour like the really old gypsies and really young were locked in the shower rooms and someone would stop by with containers of zyklon-B, a fumigation insecticide. This method was actually proposed by Aushwitz SS physician Joseph Mengele!

I'm just not too sure of the words being used here, and the words being associated with 'the final solution,' on other sites. Remember that at the time being an illegal immigrant, communist or gay in America could get you locked up as well. If you tried to sneak out of Ukraine, Russia would send you and your family to a labor camp, where you'd work to death. When the 3rd Reich asked other countries if they had ' the jewish question,' they were asking specifically about the census and whether or not they should deport them. Finland said no and ultimately all of their Jews were spared. 50% in Germany and 20% in France were not.

The prisoners in the prison camps were only fed 200 calories a day. In the labor camps 350 calories. (This is my main gripe about the camps.) So the methods weren't so much extermination, but neglect and mass starvation. If they were lucky they were fed one hard rocky potato, else they'd get a watery soup instead. The non-jewish prisoners were supposedly fed a real diet, but I'm not sure where this took place, only that it was happening in 1941. Add to that the decay with sickness' like typhus is why everyone's head is shaven in the pictures, because of fleas and body lice. Also about 400k people died after the camps were liberated because the allies didn't understand they couldn't digest food.

I really think that that the words 'extermination' and 'extermination camp' ignore the realities of those prison camps back then, before and after the war. The Germans outside the camps had no idea what was going on, they just smelt a terrible odor. Also the six million figure comes no where close to the amount of jews in the camps. No more then 250k jews died at aushwitz the other 1 million people that died were polish, russian p.o.w.'s and slovaks. This is verifiable truth if you look at the Aushwitz memorial. There were another five camps in eastern Poland, where people died/were gassed I'm sure, but the 'six million jews dying' did not specifically take place in the prison camps themselves. Six million people in the camps maybe, but six million jews in the camps? Not likely.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.63.166 (talk) 21:18, 5 May 2018 (UTC)


 * This is not a forum, see WP:NOTAFORUM. The talk page is for making specific suggestions to improve the article using information from reliable sources. (Hohum @ ) 22:16, 5 May 2018 (UTC)


 * You're misapplying WP:NOTAFORUM, . This is very much a discussion about the article and the language used in it, and it's in the most appropriate place: the Talk page. The fact that you disagree with these considerations does not make them impertinent here. WisdomTooth3 (talk) 08:07, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't express agreement or disagreement with the views. However, they were views without sources, and no concrete suggestions were made. That is entirely within the meaning of NOTAFORUM. Additionally, a second editor added the hatnote which you have removed, so it was not my unilateral opinion. A discussion requires a reply, nobody has for six months. You have also not added anything on topic. (Hohum @ ) 19:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Contradiction on the number of deaths at the Great Synagogue?
Hey there, the article says that 5000 or so people died, but this other article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Battalion_309 said that 2,000 did. And so does the article on the Great Synagogue.

It is unclear what the "first mass killing" it refers to here means.

The burning, or the entire episode?

Qwartz2003 (talk) 09:31, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2020
In the background section, change

For example, Mark Roseman wrote that "their normal mode of communicating about murder".

to

For example, Mark Roseman wrote that euphemisms were "their normal mode of communicating about murder".

This sentence was mangled in a recent edit (3rd of July 2020). 91.87.92.1 (talk) 10:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Jack Frost (talk) 14:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2020
194.140.216.70 (talk) 09:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC).
 * It is not clear what you want, please state what you want in the fashion of change x to y please. Thanks!  Heart  Glow (talk) 12:08, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Comparison to "Final Solution"-like Language in Other Genocides
I would like to see another section on this page where the 'final solution' language is compared to language used in other genocides. One of the Qing Emperors said before the Dzungar genocide that “We must now consider how to pull up the roots entirely, wipe out the remaining followers, and clean up everything permanently with one blow."  p.155.  The author makes a direct parallel to the 'final solution' wording. Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * first you will need RS's that make such a comparison - unlikely — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.19.250 (talk) 12:16, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Missing source
The source Herf (2005) is cited twice in the article but missing from the bibliography. I think that it is likely this article but don't have access to the full text to check. If any editor reading this has access to the article could they check it and add the source information to the bibliography if appropriate? Thanks, Wham2001 (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2021
Change:

The outbreak of war and the invasion of Poland brought a population of 3.5 million Polish Jews under the control of the Nazi and Soviet security forces,[16] and marked the start of a the Holocaust in Poland.

To:

The outbreak of war and the invasion of Poland brought a population of 3.5 million Polish Jews under the control of the Nazi and Soviet security forces,[16] and marked the start of the Holocaust in Poland. Wikburner (talk) 19:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:04, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

English
what is the Nazi solutions to world 117.222.4.190 (talk) 05:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2022

 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. You would need to find sources comparing this to the final solution, otherwise it's WP:OR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:55, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Historical Parallels
On February 26, 2022, the website of the Russian news agency RIA Novosti published an article by columnist Pyotr Akopov entitled “The Offensive of Russia and the New World”. After a negative reaction on the Internet, the material from the site disappeared, but is preserved in the web archive. In the text, the author discusses the "Russian world", represented by Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, its relations with the West. He also notes that Russia could not refuse to “return” Ukraine, and “Vladimir Putin took on a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian issue to future generations.”  93.170.114.238 (talk) 11:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Precursor meetings between Hitler and Himmler
In Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth, Gita Sereny relayed the following anecdote. Christa Schroeder, one of Hitler's secretaries, had an encounter with Heinrich Himmler after one of his long meetings with Hitler:

“I clearly remember a day in 1941, I think it was in early spring,” she said. “I don’t think 1 will ever forget Himmler’s face when he came out after one of his long, ‘under four eyes’ conferences with Hitler. He sat down heavily in the chair on the other side of my desk and buried his face in his hands, his elbows on the desk, ‘My God, my God,’ he said, ‘what I am expected to do.’

“Later, much later,” she said, “when we found out what had been done, I was sure that that was the day Hitler told him the Jews had to be killed.” (Sereny, pp. 248-249).

I think this could make a useful inclusion into the article. It's speculative, of course, but so is much about the the decision-making process -- that's the whole reason for the functionalist-intentionalist debate. Sereny goes on to say that Speer thought that Schroeder's conclusions about the import of the meeting were "highly probable," in her words. Sacxpert (talk) 02:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Jewishness
I'm making an addition here so there's no edit warring, but an individual's Jewishness isn't only defined in the religious way (Halakha). Like a secular Ashkenazi Jew is still a Jew. Also, other articles on Wikipedia seem to adhere to Jewish ancestry/ethnicity being enough to be described as Jewish. Rhayailaina (talk) 21:53, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Belorussian SSR in 1940 after annexation of eastern Poland.jpg