Talk:Financial history of the New York Giants

Okay
Okay, I started this baby up today. I'd like to have it GA class by the end of the week if all goes well. Quadzilla99 08:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

GA review comments
Here we go again. i have decided to review all New York Giants articles that you put forward for review. BTW, if you didn't already know (from my user page), my fav. team is New England Patriots. To the review
 * Sentence 1 violates Show, don't tell policy. i think it will be simpler to leave it as "The New York Giants, an American football team of the National Football League (NFL)was founded by businessman and bookmaker Tim Mara with an investment of US$500'
 * You're allowed to use appropriate descriptive terms in the lead; the lead is a summary of the article. See the second sentence of Michael Jordan, an article I'm the main editor on and which passed FAC in March. As long as the information is backed up by sources in the article you're allowed to summarize in the lead. If you were saying something that could be perceived as POV it would be a problem (like "Jordan is the greatest player of all time" etc). Everything here in the lead is supported by sources and statistics, and nothing is controversial: at least from the historical sources I've read. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Nowhere except the early 1920s do you have info on "a financially turbulent history" for the organization. Also, with respect to MJ - i dont have issue with 'Widely considered one of the greatest basketball players of all time, he became one of the most effectively marketed athletes of his generation and was instrumental in popularizing the NBA (National Basketball Association) around the world in the 1980s and 1990s.' but have an issue with the statement 'Jordan is one of the most marketed sports figures in history.' in the main article. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "and became one of the first teams of the NFL." - was it called NFL then or by some other name?
 * The NFL was formed in 1922. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * good enough. i wasn't sure of it and hence the query. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Although the Giants were successful on the field in their initial seasons, they struggled financially." - remove. violates Show, don't tell policy.
 * They went 8–4, 8–4–1, and 11–1–1 in their first three seasons and their financial struggles are well-documented. See my comments above. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * once again, disagree. the financial struggle was only the first year. i can't see any other statement wrt to 1926 and beyond and hence need clarification. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is years later, but I fully addressed this by adding a ton of new info which showed the team's struggles in their early years. AaronY (talk) 05:05, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "The following year, Grange and his agent formed a rival league and stationed a competing team, led by Grange, in New York. Though the Giants lost $50,000 that season, the rival league folded and was subsumed into the NFL." - reword on the lines of "The New York Giants lost $50,000 when Grange and his agent formed a rival league and started a team in new York. However the rival league folded in a year and merged with the NFL" or something equivalent
 * much better if you used "After these initial struggles " instead of "After their initial struggles"
 * ✅ Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "and they led the league in attendance several times in the 1930s and 1940s." - copyedit issue
 * I'm missing the issue. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * sorry. can't remember why i put the comment in the first place. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "After struggling in the latter half of the 1960s and the entire 1970s, the Giants hired an outsider" - why did they struggle?
 * That's covered in the team history articles.
 * Either provide wikilink to the struggle section, else add a sentence in here. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

In summary, a good article that has prospects for FA but currently has some work left to be done on the table. --Kalyan 17:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "In 1990, Jack Mara's son, Tim, struggling with Cancer" - change to "cancer"
 * "The Giants are currently owned by John K. Mara and Steve Tisch." - who are John Mara and Steve Tisch. Link them with their earlier owners
 * " Valued at $500 at the time of their inception,.." - phrase not required.
 * ✅ I removed it. I wanted to put in some kind of phrase to contrast the vast difference in the value of the team when it started to now, it was awkward though.
 * Suggestion: can you move the infobox to the "Early history and success: 1925-1963" section. looks odd here
 * I kinda like it there I got the idea from B movie, whose main editor was kind enough to allow me to take his format. It's a template not an infobox incidentally, its a template linking all the history articles, its in a section in New York Giants but thats only becasue it links all the history sections/articles I out it in the history section there.
 * Fair enough. i made the comment before i read the other articles (very good read!) and it was anyway only a suggestion from a 'look and feel' perspective. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "...bookmaker (legal in 1925),..." make "legal in 1925" as footnote
 * "Mara had to spend $25,000 of his own money during the season just to keep the franchise alive.[5] This struggle continued until the eleventh game of the season" - dichotomy in sentences - the first sentence states he spent $25,000 over the first season while the second states that relief came in the 11th match of a 12 match season. I think the first sentence needs to be changed to "during the first 10 matches of the season".
 * The relief didn't put them in the positive they still lost money but considerably less so. The source only says during the season:
 * Am not sure but i will take it, the way it is. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * " and perhaps altered the history of the franchise." - too strong a phrase. might consider re-phrasing it
 * It needs a strong phrase considering the importance of the event. Most sources place a strong emphasis on this game, some say outright that the game saved the Giants from going under. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * fair enough. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The 1926 NY times article (link: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0A1EFC3C5D13738DDDA00994DA415B868EF1D3) is not a free article. It needs subscription/paid-serice. This needs to be stated in the link
 * Commented on thsi previously. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The Giants paid a total of $21,000 in player salary, includin paying all player expenses during the season, and player salaries range from $1,500 to $3,000.[10]" - i am guessing this is for 1926, better to clarify that
 * ✅ Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The team's attendance on the road was significantly higher in their early history—the team averaged 57,000 in their three road games in 1925.[4][10]" - shouldn't this sentence be moved to the 1925 season para
 * I'm summarizing the para, and putting it in perspective, so I don't think so. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree. The sentence is at the end of a para that talks of the 1926 season. why would you want to summarize the 1925 season at the end of a para talking about 1926 season, unless the year has been wrongly quoted. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Before the 1929 season, Mara " - jumped from 1926 to 1929, better to summarize 1927 and 1928 seasons in atleast a line or phrase
 * ✅ again years later, but still... AaronY (talk) 05:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "Mara purchased the entire squad of the Detroit Wolverines" - from whom? for what price? why?
 * Not sure if I understand your question. He bought them from another owner and incorporated their roster into his (the Giants). I added rival to make it clear they were in the same division. Teams folded or were bought out often in the NFL's early years. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Who sold Detriot wolverines to NY? How much did NY pay to the owner of Detriot. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "In 1939 and 1940, .." - how about 1930-38?
 * "Although the Giants were no longer the league's top draw by 1955," - what caused this drop?
 * "build, and a has a capacity" - remove first 'a'
 * ✅ Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The Giants made the decision to hire a General Manager for the first time in team history following the 1978 season." - why?
 * ✅. I added some explanation, I don't want to add too much since that gets into on-field things topics. Quadzilla99 18:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The Giants made the decision to hire a General Manager for the first time in team history following the 1978 season.[24] However, the search grew contentious and severely fractured the relationship between owners Wellington and Tim Mara (son of Jack).[24] Finally, the Maras asked NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle to step in with a recommendation.[24] " - you are refering to the same article for all three sentences - can you remove the first 2 references
 * ✅ I removed one ref, must have missed that. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Most Valuable Player] award - remove ']'
 * ✅ Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "On October 25, 2005, " - you missed the entire 1990s and thru 2005
 * ✅ Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * could you point it out? i couldn't find any data. Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "On October 25, 2005, beloved Giants patriarch.." - while i am OK with the sentence as it stands, "beloved" might draw POV comment
 * ✅ removed. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you add the following information - List of Owners; List of General Managers
 * I think that would be redundant since they're all mentioned in the text save for Ernie Accorsi and Jerry Reese, I'll mention those two and make it clearer where each transition occurred.
 * Fair enough though i prefered a list (Disclaimer:I am a list person!). Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that would be redundant since they're all mentioned in the text save for Ernie Accorsi and Jerry Reese, I'll mention those two and make it clearer where each transition occurred.
 * Fair enough though i prefered a list (Disclaimer:I am a list person!). Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I'm a little curt, I'm going on a wikibreak for a few days and am in a hurry. Quadzilla99 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Where were you curt? Kalyan 16:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I am promoting the article to GA. However there are a couple of points still left to be addressed. --Kalyan 10:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments
Congrats on the DYK? Nice to have an American sports article on the front page. Great work for a new article, you can tell a lot of work went into this. I fixed some grammar and wording issues but that's to be expected given its only a couple of days old. '  Tayquan' hollaMy work 04:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

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