Talk:Finding in the Temple

Wonders
I've always wondered: was this Jesus' bar mitzvah? Arch O. LaTalk TCF 06:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it was not his bar mitzvah.Stealthisaccount 00:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Speculation
I wonder if the idea of a boy being Bar Mitzvah predated its period of first record (in the Talmudic era), in some form or other. The Oral Law consisted of oral customs handed down from one generation to the next, and the consideration of a person as being a "Bar Mitzvah" may have merely been set in print in the Talmudic era after numerous generations of Jewish boys had grown up with intensive scriptural education around the younger teenage years. I suspect that the term "Bar Mitzvah" may have started as a neologism for an older status of age for a Jewish child. Of course, all this is speculation; thus it is on the talk page and not in the article. &mdash; Rickyrab | Talk 21:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thus, it would not have been unusual for people to go about teaching older children and young adults (like Jesus) Torah, and the more intelligent children (again, like Jesus) might've been interested in learning and talking with experts (such as rabbis and whatever served as the equivalent of a rabbi among the Sadduccees). As for Jesus being found in the Temple, that must've taken some time and effort. The Temple area and associated plaza was and is a big place, and it was at its grandest in the Herodian era, when Jesus was alive (and shortly after). &mdash;  Rickyrab | Talk 21:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggest a different title: Jesus among the Doctors
At least in art, the subject appears to be most frequently labeled Jesus among the Doctors or something of the sort, Finding in the Temple seems a vague title. The thrust of the event was not merely that Jesus gravitated to the temple but that he held his own among the notables there. Again the visual focus of the title need not be the title for the written story, but does this title pick a focus?Rococo1700 (talk) 23:58, 20 February 2016 (UTC)


 * ’‘Among the Teachers’’, Vasiliiy Polenov, 1896.
 * ’‘Boy Jesus in the Temple’’, John Linnell, 1843. Tate Gallery.
 * ’‘Boy Jesus in the Temple’’, Julius Schnorr von Carolsfeld, 1851-60.
 * ’‘Boy Jesus in the Temple’’, He Qi, 2002.
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors’’, Bernardino Luini, National Gallery, London
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors’’, Giotto di Bondone, 1304-06.
 * ’‘Christ Returning to His Parents’’, Simone Martini, 1342.
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors’’ (Missal), Degli Attavanti Attavante, 1485-87.
 * ’‘Christ Among the Doctor’’s, Master of the Catholic Kings, c 1495/1497. National Gallery of Art.
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors’’, Albrecht Dürer, 1503.
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors’’, Albrecht Dürer, 1506.
 * ’‘Christ Among the Doctors’’, Bernard van Orley, c 1513. National Gallery of Art.
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors’’, Bernardino Luini, 1515-30. National Gallery, London.
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors’’, Rembrandt, 1654.
 * ’‘Christ among the Doctors in the Temple’’, Albrecht Dürer, 1511. Christian Theological Seminary, Indianapolis.
 * ’‘Christ Child in the Temple’’, Charles Goldie, 1898-1911.
 * ’‘Christ Disputing with the Doctors’’, Luovico Mazzolino, c. 1520-25. National Gallery, London.
 * ’‘Christ Disputing with the Doctors’’, Rembrandt, 1630. Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco.
 * ’‘Christ Disputing with the Doctors’’, Rembrandt, 1652. Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco.
 * ’‘Christ Disputing with the Doctors’’, Gregorio Preti, 1660's. National Gallery, London.
 * ’‘Christ Returning from the Temple with his Parents’’, Rembrandt, 1654. Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco.
 * ’‘Christ Seated Disputing with the Doctors’’, Rembrandt, 1654. Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco.
 * ’‘Christ Teaching at the Temple’’, Carl Bloch, 1875, Hope Gallery.
 * ’‘Disputation with the Doctors’’, Duccio di Buoninsegna, 1308/11.
 * ’‘Dispute in the Temple’’, Simon Bening, c. 1525-30. Getty Museum.
 * ’‘Finding of the Savior in the Temple’’, William Holman Hunt, 1854.
 * Jesus among the Doctors, Francesco Maria Raineri, Santa Maria della Carita, Mantua
 * Jesus among the Doctors, Simon Bening, Getty Museum
 * ’‘Jesus Among the Doctors’’; Unknown; Regensburg, Bavaria, Germany; about 1400 - 1410
 * ’‘Jesus among the Doctors’,’ Albrecht Dürer | Museo Thyssen-Bornemisza
 * ’‘Jesus among the Doctors’,’ Paolo Veronese
 * ’‘Jesus Among the Doctors’’, James Tissot, Brooklyn Museum
 * ’‘Jesus Among the Doctors’’, Fra Angelico, c. 1450.
 * ’‘Jesus with the Doctors’’, Gustave Doré, 1865.
 * ’‘Jesus Disputing with the Elders’’, Juan de Valdés Leal, 1686.
 * ’‘Loss of the Child Jesus in the Temple’’ Adriaen Isenbrant, 1518-35.
 * A google of Jesus among the Doctors results in 3 million hits.
 * A google of Finding in the Temple results in 164 million hits.
 * Per COMMONNAME, "Finding in the Temple" is the better name. tahc chat 00:40, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, leave as is. In my experience, Christ/Jesus among the Doctors is only used for the subject in art, while Finding in the Temple is more usual in general religious contexts, as the ghits suggest.  There are redirects, and might be more, and the article covers both aspects, though at present the art side is longer.  Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Bar Mitzvah
Although Jesus did not have a Bar Mitzvah, since they did not exist at the time, I believe the Jewish customs concerning "Coming Of Age" should be mentioned as pertaining to what happened in first century Jewish culture. And the fact this incident has been consistently compared to the Bar Mitzvah tradition maby should get its own "Jewish Coming of Age in the first century" themed sub-section. Colliric (talk) 16:28, 22 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I believe this connection is primarily a non-Jewish fantasy. If there was some 1st century tradition, related to bar mitzvah or otherwise, which had some sort of legal/theological testing for boys or young men proctored by Jewish scholars/scribes or priests then there might be some precedent for making this connection. That I have never heard anything like this, let alone the bar mitzvah itself ascribed to Jesus lifetime is not to say it unequivocally cannot be the case, but can you provide at least some sort of precedent? (If anything, I think the "sub-section"ing should be the other way around. This article would be included or linked to within a Jewish coming of age article.) Jyg (talk) 03:43, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Historicity?
This question can be heard more than one way. I am not intending to raise the question of whether or not a historical Jesus actually had such an experience in the Temple. That would lead to a debate about the historicity of Jesus himself, which I think is unhelpful in this context. My question is one of the historicity of the context and details of the story, particularly with the details of the pilgrimage during the Passover; traveling in groups (I could certainly see the entire Jewish population of Nazareth traveling together); a child free to roam about the traveling group; scholars, scribes, priests or rabbi's actually entertaining questions from a child; others? Jyg (talk) 21:54, 11 January 2020 (UTC)