Talk:Fingerpicking

This article should be merged with Fingerstyle guitar
As explained on that article's discussion page, "fingerpicking" and "fingerstyle" are essentially the same thing. In any case, whatever tiny differences there may be could easily be pointed out in one article. It's silly to have two separate articles; this only serves to cloud the whole issue, not clarify. +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

For those interested in this matter, please check the discussion page for Fingerstyle guitar, where there's an ongoing dialog about this. (This'll save a lot of copying & pasting back and forth between these two pages.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The case for fingerstyle as the inclusive term
I've been looking into the matter, and while some people use the terms synonymously, it appears that "fingerpicking" is most often used as a subset of "fingerstyle". I quote the following from Homespun Video, the largest producer of music instruction DVDs: "Finger style" refers to any type of music in which the strings are plucked by the fingers rather than by a pick. Classical guitarists invariably play finger style, as do many singers accompanying folk songs. (This "classical" style usually involves the thumb and three fingers --index, middle and ring). Many top players use this technique to play beautiful instrumentals in various forms. Martin Simpson's Celtic arrangements, Artie Traum's fingerstyle jazz and Keola Beamer's Hawaiian slack key guitar are some examples. "Fingerpicking" (also called "thumb picking" or "alternating bass") is a term that is used to describe both a style and a type of music. It falls under the "fingerstyle" heading because it is played by the fingers, but it's generally used to play a specific type of folk, country-jazz and/or blues music. In this technique, the thumb maintains a steady rhythm on the low strings while the index, or index and middle fingers pick out melody and fill-in notes on the high strings. Originally developed by African American blues guitarists throughout the south imitating the bass and treble of piano rags, it was later adapted by white musicians - most notably Ike Everly, Merle Travis and Chet Atkins - who have created a blues/jazz/country hybrid that is extremely popular. Although usually played on acoustic guitars, Travis himself often played on hollow-body electrics, as do many other players.

Other quotes: "'Fingerpicking falls under the fingerstyle category of ways to play the guitar.' Richard Gillman, Fingerpicking Guitar."

"'I've always called it fingerstyle. I have always seen chicken-pickin' defined as a subset of the fingerstyle technique. My classical/fingerstyle instructor from my teenage days was a master of this. He *made* me learn this style."

Additionally, let me state these statistics:
 * I get 1,500,000 Google hits for "fingerstyle", and only 822,000 "fingerpicking".
 * There is a magazine called "Fingerstyle Guitar" [1]. There is no publication called "Fingerpicking Guitar".
 * In a search of the online archive of Acoustic Guitar magazine, the largest-circulation publication of its kind, I get 2,400 references to "fingerstyle", and 1,090 for "fingerpicking".

I agree with the general thrust of Like2Be's suggestion, that these two articles should be combined. But NOT because they are synonymous. Fingerpicking should be discussed within the greater realm of fingerstyle. --Pleather 07:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Merging the two sounds correct to me. The first time I found the terms on Wikipedia I was surprised they were separate entries. The only difference to me is that fingerstyle sounds more serious. I usually "hear" fingerpicking without the final "g" like "just a pickin' on the old git fiddle". I personally like the look of finger style with the space in between - --Dalemi 02:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that the two articles if merged would compliment eachother very well, on the fingerstyle page, particularly the bit on Jazz guitar and it's notes on staccatto (excuse the spelling) and on the hybrid picking, however I do agree with Pleather's argument that they should be seperate as, (speaking from experience) classical and the alternating bass line are two different techniques, however they do have their similarities. What I think we should do is use the fingerstyle article for the basis of the article and then we can discuss which parts of the fingerpicking article to attach to that article so that it looks legible. I think a lot of the stuff about the Jazz can be put because the article only has a stub there. --Mikeoman 01:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Nobody has said anything for a good 7 months so I propose and deadline- as everybody agrees with merging the two articles together then I will spend my tuesday afternoon (21/8/07) merging the two articles together as there is no logical reason to keep the two articles seperate, I have also spoken to my teacher who says there is no difference between the two, if there are any objections bring them up otherwise I will merge the two articles on tuesday. --Mikeoman 14:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

minor edit
There's a spelling mistake I spotted where 'ther' should be 'the', Just to let you know i've changed it --Mikeoman 23:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Request for a merger with fingerstyle guitar
I have put in a request for this article to be merged with fingerstyle guitar, a administrator will be coming to do this as it wouldn't let me move it. --Mikeoman 12:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The two articles are now merged
Ok, i've merged the two articles together, the admin guys said (and I quote!) copy and paste into the article your want to be merged into, i've emailed the guys and asked them to make fingerstyle guitar into a redirect and i'm awaiting their reply. Now just so you all know- I've tweaked the introduction so it can refer to any instrument- however as my expertise only lies within the guitar, I won't do any other instruments the discredit by attempting to blag, I do feel however the need to ask the bassists, banjoists, violinists- if they feel they need a place within this article as was brought up previously.--Mikeoman 16:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

classical guitar
I've added a classical guitar section to the article, as I am myself, a classical guitarist, can I have some feedback please? i.e. did I miss anything out, is it necessary and does everyone understand what i'm saying? If not I can sort out some examples for you all or rewrite it--Mikeoman 16:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well done, I've amended a little. By the way the "New age " section is complete BS. RichardJ Christie 13:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, transfering music isn't my strong suit. I think your edit more precise than mine and articulated a lot better but I think this statement could be expanded is that it has evolved to enable solo rendition of polyphonic music in much the same manner as the pianoforte can as it's a touch misleading. 1)You use the word- evolve, but from what? it's old music classical guitar was founded pre 1500's we need some dates for it and we need to briefly discuss the history of it (I presume you're talking about baroque) without waffling on too much as we already have a good article on classical guitar (which I think is a good link-especially in this article). something like composers such as (name) composed a polyphonic piece and so forth- i'm not so hot on history. 2)You compare it to the pianoforte that redirects onto piano, i'm unclear whether you're refering to dynamics or to the piano, if it is the piano (then don't call it pianoforte it's confusing!), then I think any unbowed (correct me if i'm using the wrong word- i.e. not violin, cello etc.) stringed instrument can be potentially contrapuntal, I know piano is the natural choice, but we must remember that a lute (and probably a few instruments that I don't know of)are fingerpicked, I believe it shouldn't be guitar centred, but centred around classical music. 3)When you say Solo rendition of polyphonic music, I know what you're talking about because I'm a guitarist, but if a non musician read it he wouldn't know what you meant- so we need to spell it out, could you (because I don't know how) provide an example of a polyphonic rhythem and I can do the little quote explaining it to those who can't read music- if you take inspiration from the baroque guitar pieces like allegretto or adante (it's simple as well), we only need a bar.

I'm sure that you mean well and you're writing style shows intellegence but the average man and I think the article should be readable to everyone- not just musicians, so lets discuss these 3 points and expand the section.--Mikeoman 23:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll address your points.
 * 1) "evolve" or perhaps developed call it what you will, the instrument "evolved" to what it is today, which is the subject of the section. I don't think this article is the place for a history lesson on the instrument, we already have the main guitar article as well as several on classical guitar, its history technique, repertoire etc. So I don't think the word is at misleading in context.
 * 2 and 3) I'm refering to the pianoforte's ability to play, in a solo capacity (not in an ensemble), polyphonic music. The guitar (and family of fretted instruments) can easily do this and aside from other the types of keyboard, the harp, and certain percussion (glockelspiel) instruments they are unique in this ability. The piano was chosen as it is the most obvious example and well known to most. Use of the piano in the example is not mutually exclusive of other instruments capable of the same practise. Yes, we could explain polyphonic music in this article but again, I think this article is not the place to do so, therefore I added the link to polyphony. I've added the term harmony to try to further clarify (nor I see no need to expain that term within this article)
 * Pianoforte is the full name of the instrument commonly known as the piano. I am used to both terms, I commonly use the term violoncello to describe 'cello as well, especially when I'm writing in a formal situation. Simplify if you wish, but perhaps using the full term might serve to educate! and anyway, clarification is now only a click away on the link. RichardJ Christie 01:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

OK points 2&3 I agree with in the context of this article, so long as there's an internal link i'm fine. I still think history is important- I know the article needs cleaning up but would you object if I put the 'history of classical guitar' in the article, with a brief summary beforehand?--Mikeoman 21:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't quite know what you mean by putting in 'History of the classical guitar' - even if refering only to its playing technique - that would require a book or two to cover on its own . Go ahead, .... I'm intrigued. RichardJ Christie 10:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm refering to the wiki article- it has a lot of gaps and it's scatty but it's what all we have here, you might want to have a glance at it and add your expertise to it., i'll include it in the section as a rough guide--Mikeoman 14:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I've also kept it quite brief- as you say no need to reiterate i've included the baroque and renaissance music, as that's included in the article i'm sure there's more but there's no more that comes to mind, please add a few more external links if you can think of them--Mikeoman 15:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

NAME of merged article.
It appears from my quick reading of 'Talk' above that "fingerstyle" is preferable to "fingerpicking". I certainly agree. "Picking" is not a term historically used in the literature, "plucking" is though, picking I suspect is a term highly likely of US origin with strong roots in plectrum playing culture. I also suspect that most classical players would be horrified to be described as fingerpickers. RichardJ Christie 01:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What you said. +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a cultural/use of english kind of thing, in my knowledge, when people commonly use a plectrum aka pick it's known as 'picking' for example we'll call the right hand the 'picking hand', also in a lot of our books when refering to this concept refer to it as fingerpicking- I think it's my english(British) culture, but to say fingerstyle just seems wrong to me, my teacher calls it fingerpicking and so do my friends, to call it something else just sounds like a play on words. I put classical music there because it's played with the fingers, but I think generally speaking classical music is entirely different to say ragtime, folk etc. i'd say without giving discredit to other music styles it's far more developed and really throughly explored and well organised kind of music (because of the shear history of the music and the great composers)- with little to do with modern music. Thus (in my culture at least) a classical guitarist is refered to as neither a fingerstylist or a fingerpicker they are a just a "classical guitarists" because it is such a great difference in comparison to other kinds of fingerpicking, I think it is inappropriate to call them the latter terms just a "classical guitarist" that's what i'd want to be called. I personally don't mind what you call the article (we english are used to most americanisations and the content here is mostly good and that won't change) but please mention that it is also called fingerpicking and it'll be fine with me.--Mikeoman 20:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I spent three years at a conservatorium and have attended dozens of masterclasses etc, my principle teacher, the late Antonio Losada (well known in Australasia and Madrid), trained under Sainz de la Maza in Madrid and later with A Segovia. In 20 years of involvement in professional music I've never heard classical technique referred to as "fingerpicking" by any professionals or academics that I've known, nor have I read the term in any treatise or method on classical guitar. However, I feel comfortable with the various schools of classical technique (there are several) being classified as belonging to the broad category of fingerstyle guitar. I don't know how to change the article name or I would have done so already, is it as simple as a normal edit? what about articles that link here? RichardJ Christie 10:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Then I think you are the more experienced of the two of us (you've been involved in proffessional classical music for each year I've been born!- I on the other hand have been playing classical a year and have grown to love it) so i'll take your word for it- i'm unsure whether it's a language thing- our exam books say 'fingerpicking' (London college of music exams) for the electric and acoustic exams, so we must ensure we have a redirect from fingerpicking to fingerstyle as long as the contents are similar then it is my opinion that people can research it for themselves and learn to play it- that is why (in my opinion) we have a guitar techniques section and that is the motive for this article. Don't worry about the change in name i'll do it- but for future reference if you look up the top next to the '+' there's move, you can do everything there.--Mikeoman 14:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I promise i'll do this in the next few days setmontosis (an administrator (can't spell it look at my 'my talk')) has been helping me merge the article from the fingerstyle guitar to this one, i'd appreciate it if you'd leave it to me as it saves a lot of confusion(fear not it will eventually be called fingerstyle, if you'd like more info look at my 'my talk' and then go find his 'my talk'- our discussion is there--Mikeoman 15:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh well, things obviously change, London College use the term term now, well I never. The relentless march of US cultural imperialism (that's said light-heartedly for those US residents who might choose to take offence). Guess we'll all soon be geetar pickas jez waiting for our next hoe down. RichardJ Christie 04:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand- I said that's the case for the electric and soon to be created acoustic exams (a lot less prestigous- improvisational lead, rhythmic chord bases stuff, plus some pitch tests, repitition of melodic phrases and so forth- quite easy)- I know this because i've spent my gap year multitasking between the electric and the classical, LCM make no reference to fingerpicking/style in their classical exam books (they just give a choice a 3/12 or so pieces to learn, some scales, sight reading, pitch tests, keeping a beat but they neither call it fingerstyle or fingerpicking)- they do however expect you to fingerpick/style in a classical style they have fingering arrangments i.e. primary, index middle etc. on their music pieces. I think we should agree that classical is clearly a different teachnique to ragtime (I know because I dabble in it), folk (I dabble in this) and jazz therefore (and correct me if i'm wrong here)- your argument is based upon your objection to classical music being called 'fingerpicking', whereas other music types'll happily accept this title therefore I suggest that we alter the classical section by saying that in classical music it's called fingerstyle not fingerpicking? alternatively we can tweak the article name so it's called 'fingerpicking/fingerstyle' and in the introduction explain that different music types or different english styles (i.e. british english, american english or new zealand english) address playing with the fingers or thumbs by these different names however they penultimately they refer to the the same concept that of course is why we merged (or attempting to merge) the two articles together in the first place--Mikeoman 22:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I simply disagree with you. I maintain that the term "picking" is of recent usage (largely 20th century), (and very likely of US origin), its use arises from the transference of the use and operation of a plectrum (PICK) to the fingers. From that viewpoint, the basic operation is to activate the strings with a pick. Then, using the fingers is an aberration to the norm that must then described by the term finger"picking". If you take the time to do a simple survey of guitar literature over the centuries you will not find that plucking the strings with the fingers is refered to as picking them.


 * Ragtime is NOT a playing technique, it is a musical style. Fingerstyle performance of ragtime on guitar may (or may not) use a variations on standard classical right hand technique. Jazz is NOT a playing technique, it is a musical style. When heard played fingerstyle it is most often executed by players using very rudimentary right hand technique, this is a generalisation, I know, but easily justifiable when comparing jazz players playing fingerstyle (even celebrated ones) to classical performers.


 * However and in contrast, classical guitar music is NOT defined by a musical style, it IS defined by technique, or rather, music that is performed on an instrument of certain construction using a set of techniques.

RichardJ Christie 06:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your comments on the fact we have a 'jazz guitar' perhaps, I'm unsure how jazz works- I think it's by appeggios and in such a case we need to entitle it 'fingerpicking/style appeggios(excuse the spelling)' and then explain that in popularly used in jazz, jazz isn't my thing so I shalnt edit that bit or in the case of ragtime then a section entitled 'alternate bass line' as it is an article about technique and not about musical style- that said I wouldn't know what to call the classical bit because as well as classical we have flamenco which is also important.

To my knowledge and as I have been taught before by my teacher (my origins lie within electic/acoustic) fingerpicking is chord based and it's an alternative to strumming (exceptions are made to classical) it's always been proposed to me as an alternative way of playing chords (not scales you can only do it on a classical)- it doesn't have to be rigid you can add other scale degrees that are in the key, it can be part of the rhythm or have a more melodic and especially if we look at the travis picking in the article you can see that it's another way of playing the key of C. to my knowledge a lot of the articles are refering to what you'd call a free stroke- in a acoustic or electric it's hard to get a decent sound and speed using a rest stroke because the strings are too hard and rigid- that's why we use a pick- we can get a lot of speed, so there really isn't much point using a rest stroke- it's not a valid alternative to playing scales, we practise and master out picking technique (or we cheat and use hybrid picking), we have lots of techniques on how to cross strings and for many a pick isn't a handicap. --Mikeoman 14:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Fingerpicking is an USA term for plucking the strings with the fingers instead of the plectrum or PICK, its origins are not in the mainstream of general "acoustic" guitar history.
 * I'm sure you mean well, but I do not find your arguments coherent. RichardJ Christie 11:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This article and tihs part of the discussion has been moved to Fingerstyle guitar and Talk:Fingerstyle guitar. It would be better to conduct further discussion there. I copied and pasted your comment there for you. :) - furrykef (Talk at me) 20:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)