Talk:Finns Party/Archive 3

Foreign vs Finn
As per the request of Pudeo, who needs a discussion for some reason. The choice of the word "foreign" is not appropriate to an internationally-read encyclopedia. That in this context "foreign" is taken to mean non-Finn, but outside Finland, Finns are regarded as foreign. Thus the word "foreign' is not accurate and biased from a Finnish POV. The nationality of those who describe the PS is not relevant to the content of the work summarised. As such the article reads like tabloid news, "Foreign researchers say...". Here the terms foreign and Finnish have been used as a device to polarise people in a way that overgeneralises about the content of research of all people of a given category (Foreign vs Finn). This nonconsensual biased imprecision has therefore been removed from the lead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.107.11 (talk) 23:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * First off, a discussion is always needed in Wikipedia if you go against a consensus established in an earlier discussion. As to the issue, if you are familiar with the term context, you should know that the context of this article is Finnish politics and thus the term foreign is easily understood as non-Finnish. The distinction between Finnish and foreign writers has been established, there is no polarisation or POV. But in any case, I have replaced the word "foreign" with the word "non-Finnish". Now you should have nothing to complain about. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 11:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The division is based on the several sources listed in the section above. The radical right-wing debate was discussed in Finland after the elections, when some foreign newspapers labeled it even far-right, which Erkka Railo from the the Centre for Parliament Studies specifically answered to turn down. Given all the sources  we have, it's an accurate description we have in the lead. If it was removed, "Some researchers" – "Some researchers" would imply a 50-50 relevance which would be quite WP:UNDUE. The political systems in different countries are different, even terms like left-wing and right-wing can mean different things, so it's hardly surprising an article on a Finnish party would have some "Finnish bias". I suppose it's a bit awkward, but that's the most accurate way to describe the sources we have.    --Pudeo' 18:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe this was at all settled in a previous discussion, and I also think these qualifiers fall under WP:WEASEL. The discussion at RS/N came to the agreement that we should distinguish between the social and political positions, and that "right-wing" was more appropriate for a general characterization (like in the infobox) than "far-right". This doesn't change the fact that they have been described variously by finns and non-finns.  If you want to say "Finnish researchers generally refer to the party as socially conservative." you need a source which explicitly says that.  All we have now is several sources from Finnish authors that describe them as socially conservative, in addition to some from a variety of authors which describe them as "right-wing".  Artificially attributing all the stronger characterizations to "foreign sources" is clearly WP:SYNTH.  a13ean (talk) 18:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't think that the part about the party being socially conservative is disputed by any credible researcher. Even David Arter, who is referenced as a source for the party being right-wing populist, writes that the party is also conservative: "Rather, the mix of traditional conservatism (socio-cultural authoritarianism) and ethno-nationalism (nativism) defines the PS as a spin-off party " (from the article referenced in the article). How many sources would you need to support the usage of the term "generally"? Five? Ten? Hundred? In any case, the article by Joost van Spanje says that the dominant view of the party is that it is quite mainstream: "Another interesting case under investigation here, that of the True Finns, is usually below the radar of scholars who study ‘anti-immigration’ parties. This means that it is usually lumped into the category of ‘mainstream’ (not anti-immigration) parties." (From the article referenced in this talk page - he himself argues otherwise, but concedes that most scholars consider it mainstream by using the word "usually".) --89.27.36.41 (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But if all descriptions of the views are weasel words, wouldn't a 50-50 "some say–some say" give a large undue weight to David Arter's view? --Pudeo' 21:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

To concur with a13ean this is synthesis. For instance there is a Norwegian political analyst who has described the PS as new populist and argues that the far right have been mainstreamed. Nothing Finnish about him. I'm sure the majority of Finnish researchers have very little to say about PS, or are in a position to comment in any authoratitive manner. The Finn, non-Finn dichotomy is basically false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.71.34 (talk) 23:08, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To quote some of my original RS/N posting"Everyone seems to agree that they are nationalistic, populist, and that their fiscal policies are best described as 'center left', but we're having a hard time determining how their social policies should be characterized, due to source issues. There are a fair number of English language news sources that characterize them as 'far-right', 'right-wing', 'right-wing' and 'xenophobic', and 'far-right'. English language scholarly sources vary somewhat in their characterizations: 'nationalistic', 'far-right' and 'anti-immigrant', 'populist radical right' but not 'extreme xenophobic', and 'right-wing' (from a Finnish scholar in English).Everyone seems to agree that they are nationalistic, populist, and that their fiscal policies are best described as 'center left', but we're having a hard time determining how their social policies should be characterized, due to source issues.  There are a fair number of English language news sources that characterize them as 'far-right', 'right-wing', 'right-wing' and 'xenophobic', and 'far-right'.  English language scholarly sources vary somewhat in their characterizations: 'nationalistic', 'far-right' and 'anti-immigrant', 'populist radical right' but not 'extreme xenophobic', and 'right-wing' (from a Finnish scholar in English)."
 * The only way any of this is currently reflected in the article now is "whereas some non-Finnish scholars have described them as radically right-wing populist", which is quite an understatement. Also, it appears that the four sources that are being used to source "Finnish researchers have generally considered the party fiscally centre-left, socially conservative" paint a more nuanced view. For example the first one says "'Perussuomalaiset on toiselta jalaltaan työväenpuolue, toisella perinteinen oikeisto”, Pekonen sanoo.' which I translate roughly as 'PS is on one hand a labor party, but on the other also a traditional right-wing party, says Pekonen'"
 * As far as I can tell the second one doesn't explicitly characterize them as "fiscally center-left, socially conservative", but it does characterize the party message as "Maailma oli paremmalla tolalla ennen kuin kaikenlaiset hipit, homot ja hottentotit tulivat sotkemaan paikkoja." which, even if it is meant jokingly, implies a stronger label than just "konservatismin". The third is not an RS for this as an opinion piece in a online-only publication which has apparently only published a single article in the past year.  I haven't had a chance to get the last one through the library yet, but the sourcing for this is not sufficient to say anything which implies that that they are never characterized as "right-wing" by Finns.  The Erkka Railo bit is an excellent source to say that some reject the label, but trying to imply that no one uses it is just whitewashing.  a13ean (talk) 23:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The first reference ie. this also reads: "”Perussuomalaiset on pikemminkin keskustavasemmistolainen konservatiivipuolue. Esimerkiksi Timo Soini on talousasioissa enemmän vasemmalla kuin keskivertodemari”, sanoo Ylä-Anttila." ("The True Finns are more of a centre-left conservative party. For example Timo Soini is fiscally more to the left than the average social democrat, says [Tuomas] Ylä-Anttila [of the University of Helsinki].")
 * The relevant part of the second reference ie. this relating to the "fiscally center-left, socially conservative" characterization is not what you quoted but rather the following: "Jyrki Kataisen kokoomus on ollut enemmän liberaalipuolue kuin konservatiivipuolue, mikä on avannut konservatiiviseen kylkeen Perussuomalaisten mentävän aukon. Keskustavasemmistolaiseksi itsensä asemoinut SDP ja hahmottomaan punavihreyteen suunnannut Vasemmistoliitto ovat jättäneet kyljen auki perinteiselle työväenluokkaiselle työväenpuolueelle. " ("The National Coalition Party of Jyrki Katainen has been more of a liberal than a conservative party, which has opened up a hole in the conservative wing for the True Finns to pass through. SDP, which has positioned itself as centre-left, and Left Alliance, which has headed for shapeless red-greenness, have left a wing open for a traditional working class workers' party.") as well as this: "Hän saattoi esiintyä eurokriittisen, moraalisesti konservatiivisen, mutta otteeltaan työväenluokkaisen poliittisen vaihtoehdon edustajana suurten puolueiden sarjassa." ("He [Soini] could present himself as a representative of a eurosceptic, morally conservative, but working class by handling political alternative in the league of the large parties.")
 * Then there's also this: "Perussuomalaiset ei ole oikeistopopulistinen vaan keskusta-vasemmistolainen puolue. On yleinen harhaluulo, että puolue olisi oikeistolainen, Rahkonen sanoo" ("The True Finns are not a right-wing populist party, but a centre-left party. It is a common misconception that the party were right-wing, [Juho] Rahkonen says.") and continuing: "Perussuomalaiset on ei-sosialistinen työväenpuolue, Rahkonen tiivistää." ("The True Finns are a non-socialist workers' party, Rahkonen summarises").
 * And this: "Puolueen kannatuksen kasvussa on Parkkisen mukaan kyseessä vanhakantainen kotimainen maaseutukonservatismi." ("According to [Laura] Parkkinen the party's growth is about traditional domestic rural conservatism"). She also warns against making simplistic comparisons with parties in another countries.
 * And I myself have not argued that no one in Finland calls them right-wing, but rather that one must differentiate between fiscal and social aspects of politics. They have been called right-wing with regard to social issues, since conservatism (of any kind) is usually thought to be a right-wing ideology, but they have also been called left-wing with regard to their fiscal policies, which is in line with the Nordic welfare state and the high taxation that accompanies it. Hence also the centrist self-view of many representatives of the party (one must remember that the party shares roots with the Finnish Centre Party through the party's direct predecessor.). --89.27.36.41 (talk) 00:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I personally don't have fundamentally anything against left-wing or right-wing labels, and I think it's absurd to think removing either one of them would be white-washing. The question however was that whether "radical right-wing" is an equal view, for which you can't really find any other sources than David Arter and newspaper titles like the Guardian's. No one's questioning the social conservative and populist parts, and you can't ignore the centre-left fiscal views (citation 13). I'm pretty happy with the modified lead too, as long as the "fiscal centre-left, socially conservative + populist" part is emphasized because that's what most sources say. Just David Arter isn't really enough to be given equal weight to all the others. --Pudeo' 00:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no issue with their fiscal views as being described exclusively as center-left, which I think is uncontested. I have no issue with their social views being described as socially conservative and populist, which is supported by a number of reliable sources.  However, their social stance is also classified as "right-wing" and stronger by a number of sources, which must also be included.  The reason this all started is because IP 89.x attempted to imply that most finnish sources consider them only "socially conservative", and that only "some foreign scholars" consider them "right wing".  This is an inaccurate distinction and weaselly.
 * My further concern is that in this entire discussion, you are dismissing newspaper articles out of hand. News articles, particularly those in well-respected international publications such as The Guardian, Der Spiegel, The New York Times, The Washington Post, etc, are reliable sources, and I have never seen any policy which suggests they would not be in this case.  Journalism is a powerful thing; and it is particularly useful in that it distills information from many primary sources into a useful secondary source.  I work in the field of physics (and indeed I have no particular interest in Finnish politics at all, but ended up here after seeing an edit which I perceived as POV pushing at Special:RecentChanges), and in writing about physics on Wikipedia we don't artificially restrict our sources to academic publications.  Take a look at the article on the LHC for example; in addition to scientific papers there's also news articles, press releases and even preprints -- each can be reliable sources for various things.  a13ean (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Were talking about this again? Certainly there's a difference between political scientists, who research this topic for their living, and journalists, who most likely have not even read the party's programs. Politics is a different kind of topic from physics in the way that it divides people. Physics is also a topic where one can make unbiased judgments on absolute truths, whereas most of politics is interpretation, where different people have different opinions. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 18:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, there is no wikipedia policy that supports ignoring journalistic sources in political articles, and this widely contradicts the standards of other pages. What portion of the sources at Angela Merkel are journalistic?  If you have concerns about the reliable source guildelines, take it up at WP:RS/N. (On a side note, that's not exactly how physics works either.  There's tons of published papers on the spin hall angle of platinum with values which vary by more of an order of magnitude.  We now know that some of the interpretations are wrong, but the issue is still not settled.  Physics is rarely that straightforward.)  a13ean (talk) 19:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you can mention that journalists have called it by terms x and y in article titles. Here The Guardian calls it nationalist populist with "British experts puzzled where to position it on left-right axis". And here as "Eurosceptic" and "far-right" without analyzing the views itself. Pretty typical for newspapers to have different things in different articles, but why would you give as much as  weight to journalist than to David Arter for example? Simply if they're copying AP article titles that's not really a RS journalist analysis. Also consider that some newspapers hold a position,  like the Guardian is self-described "centre-left liberal". Well, you might take this to RS/N again if you want, although last time the editors thought it wasn't pretty suitable there, but who knows. --Pudeo' 23:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, generally such political analyses are written as "opinion"-style articles with the journalist's name, title and photo clearly visible like the ones I linked to the Guardian. Usually newspapers itself do not comment things like these unless it's the editorial written by the editor-in-chief. So the correct style would be; "Brussels editor Ian Traynor of the Guardian writes that..." --Pudeo' 23:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Age
User:89.27.36.41, the age of MP’s in one year is my opinion irrelevant in the article of the party. These ages were neither historical news. User:89.27.36.41, has in my opinion written a lot about this party and related issues which may be but is not sure to be a sign of political interests. I recommend to remove the age issue. Watti Renew (talk) 18:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * There have been dozens of governments in Finland since 1918. It makes no sense to list the youngest and oldest MP’s in the main articles of the parties. Watti Renew (talk) 15:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The age issue is much more important than memberships in politically unaffiliated organisations. If one is removed, so will be the other. The age issue is regarding the current parliament, and the parliament itself sees it fit to mention this in their FAQ. And you yourself, Watti, have been banned from the Finnish Wikipedia for pushing political agenda in articles relating to Finnish parties and especially this one, so you don't have much credibility on the issue. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 12:34, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Cooperation partners
User:89.27.36.41 It deserves in my opinion to be told in the article in its own subtitle, in which organizations the MP’s of the party are in the leading positions. In March 2013 one MP of this party was elected as the chair of Suomen Sisu, i.e. in the leading position. Other details of the connections can be found from the main article Suomen Sisu, if someone has interest in it. The cooperation is relevant to mention in short also here since program of the organization includes political objectives. This political cooperation was also accepted by the leader of the party Mr. Timo Soini. Furthermore, this cooperation has been already earlier rather strongly criticized by the leader of another party Paavo Arhinmäki. Watti Renew (talk) 15:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Suomen Sisu Ry on puoluepoliittisesti sitoutumaton", meaning, "Suomen Sisu is unaffiliated with regard to party politics". There is no official cooperation with any party. Individual members being members in other organisations is not cooperation. If it were, you would have to mention all other organisations that have members of the party as members as well. The chairman has said that the organisation has members from multiple parties, not only the True Finns: the organisation includes members from all parties except the Swedish People's Party and the Left Alliance. So would you want to add to the articles on, say, SDP or the Green League that those parties have members who are also in Suomen Sisu? And it should go without saying that Arhinmäki is not a neutral commentator, since he is a political opponent of the party. And what you are suggesting, a separate section, is in any case undue weight. The information on Immonen is already included under the section regarding the party's MPs. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 12:26, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding third party sources
User RJFF made this request on the Policies section. The thing is, that section of the article is about the party's official stances. No third party can determine what the party's offial policies are: that can be done only by the party itself. In a similar way you wouldn't need to ask for third party sources for the statement that the party's headquarters is located on Yrjönkatu in Helsinki. The article has other sections which include third party views, including the article's intro. The party's actions can be interpreted by others, but people outside the party can not decide what the official policies of the party are. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 03:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:RS. a13ean (talk) 13:51, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything that contradicts what I wrote. You can include third parties' views of the True Finns, but the third parties can not decide what is written on the True Finns' official programmes. The section does not include original research on the subject, but instead it only states what the party's official views are. Views of third parties are already included in the article - Wikipedia doesn't demand that they be included in every single sentence. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 15:40, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Update: I have now added independent third-party sources (major Finnish news outlets), which verify the content of the section. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The self-presentation of the party is not of interest to an encyclopedia, like Wikipedia. Only third parties' views are. The party has its own website to present itself. There is no need to echo this self-presentation in a Wikipedia article. --RJFF (talk) 08:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So you would have the party's opponents slander the party as much as they want without giving the party's own view? That's not NPOV. In any case, the policy section is now supported by third-party sources. --188.67.138.183 (talk) 09:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither promotion nor slander of the party should be represented in the article. Why should third parties necessarily be "the party's opponents" who "slander the party"? How about independent researchers? --RJFF (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Name of the party
The party's official name is The Finns Party and it's known as such. Article's name needs to be changed. 85.157.163.24 (talk) 03:28, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * THe only reason why no The Finns Party is used as a name is because the True Finns defined it as their own English translation. But I don't feel like a party can just choose how you translate them in another language. --Finn-Pauls (talk) 22:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * No, there have been others outside the party who have used the name 'The Finns Party'. For example: --128.214.200.223 (talk) 12:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The reason the party chose to specifically define its English language name was precisely because the term "True Finns" was (and is) utterly eroneous. "Perussuomalaiset" could be reasonably translated as "Basic Finns" or "Uncomplicated Finns" or similar. Nowhere in the Finnish language name is there meaning similar to "True". "True Finns" implies a racialistic or ethnic focus which is not present in the party's Finnish language name. In fact, I suspect the use of "True Finns" is a deliberate attempt by political opponents of the party to characterize it as fundamentally racist. (Whether the party is or is not racist is quite a different matter.) It is this deliberate misrepresentation which lead Perussuomalaiset to officially sanction its English language name - in order to bypass a politically motivated and biased misrepresentation of its name by others.

Finnish state broadcaster YLE's English language service stopped using the term "True Finns" some time ago and now instaed uses "The Finns". See here: http://yle.fi/uutiset/finns_party_women_party_is_neither_racist_nor_chauvinist/6649644


 * Your suspicion that the name 'True Finns' is made up by the party's opponents is false. It was used by the party itself as an English language translation up until the 2011 election, see for example this English language brief on the election programme, published on the party's website: http://perussuomalaiset.fi/getfile.php?file=1935 The new translation was adopted later that year. I myself think the article, and all other articles where the party is mentioned, ought to use the new translation, since it has been used by international media as well in increasing amount (a few links above). But previous attempts to use 'The Finns party' as a primary name have been reverted, so a wider consensus should probably be built first. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 09:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Cultural Policy
Let's try to avoid giving undue weight to Sofi Oksanen, who is no expert but rather only a commentator among many others. Her opinions on the issue represent a fringe view, since even though there were many critics of the program most of the critics didn't make the outlandish accusations she did about the party. Furthermore, the HS article which was cited has a note at the end, in which Oksanen, reached for comment, said that part of the initial interview's content had been lost in translation (the interview had been in an Italian paper). This reduces its credibility as a source. And let's also remember that polling indicated that 51 percent of Finns gave their support to the party's stance on art subsidies, and so it would be strange to describe it as a scandalous policy. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Reasonable enough. Interesting that the comments of the senile lawyer bint are included on this page. Fail to see the relevance to the article. 222.155.201.232 (talk) 09:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Tone
Policies section still reads like a manifesto; every subsection ends with some poll purporting to prove everyone in Finland supports the party's position. Unencyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.132.185 (talk) 13:40, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * False, there is only one poll mentioned in that section, where the general population was asked on the party's policy, and it's inclusion is justified on the basis that the criticism of the said policy is also mentioned. Furthermore, every subsection of the policy section is backed by third party sources. --87.93.119.180 (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested Move - Finns Party

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. We appear to have consensus that the proposed name is more common in more recent sources than "True Finns" and that "The" is unnecessary per WP:THE. Cúchullain t/ c 21:11, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The Finns Party → Finns Party – Per the naming convention WP:THE, article names shouldn't use the definite article, unless the addition of the definite article changes the meaning of the article name (eg The Crown requires the definite article, as it is what separates it from crown). This is widespread, but see, for example, almost every other Finnish parties, eg National Coalition Party, not the National Coalition Party; Social Democratic Party of Finland, not the Social Democratic Party of Finland; Centre Party (Finland), not the Centre Party (Finland). Bastin 21:44, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Isn't "True Finns" more common? -- Ե րևանցի talk  23:47, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not believe there was a consensus to move it from True Finns to the current name. It should be moved back pending discussion.  a13ean (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to name a few sources using the new translation instead of 'True Finns': Parliament of Finland, YLE, Helsingin Sanomat, Reuters, Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal, Fox News, Businessweek, EUbusiness and of course the party itself. All those sources, including the official webpage of the parliament, can't be ignored. The name of the article should be 'Finns Party', but 'True Finns' ought to be mentioned in the beginning of the lead section as an alternative translation (as it is at the moment). --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 23:04, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Sounds reasonable. -- Ե րևանցի talk  01:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. There was a time when 'True Finns' was the most common name used in English.  But not any more.  Hence, we should make reference to it and redirect from the other name (and combinations thereof) to this, but that's it (I think the current format is pretty much perfect). Bastin 00:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

party policy on the euro
This article still doesn't report the official opinion of the party on what it considers one of the most important issues. --Espoo (talk) 21:55, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

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Seating in parliament
The seating in parliament between social democrats and the Center party until now was inherited from the Finnish Rural Party.--Urjanhai (talk) 11:04, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

"Ultranationalism"
What exactly is supposed to be the difference between nationalism and ultranationalism? That sounds like a sensationalistic buzzword that should be avoided in an encyclopedia. Even if there's one media source calling the party or its members ultranationalist, it can be subsumed under the umbrella of nationalism, which is already mentioned, and warrants no separate mention. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 05:06, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

, Firstly I want to apologize for my late response on your opinion. However I want you to notice that I have edited the article with reliable sources. Citation that is used to describe the pary as ultranationalist is from Bloomberg. Bloomberg is conisderes to be reliable media in wikipedia. In the same vein, Vox (political party), Greek Solution, Liberal Democratic Party (Japan) has ultranationalism as ideology due to reliable sources from foreign media.

Response on your question. 1. Difference between nationalism and ultranationalism? Please see the article better. There is clear difference between nationalism and ultranationalism. 2.The possibility that the source might be wrong. That's why we're discussing on the talk page. If source is considered to be wrong due to discussion it should be removed immediately. Jeff6045 12:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Reliability of the source is not the only criterium on whether a claim should be included in a Wikipedia article. Other factors, like WP:DUE are routinely considered. For example, a while back there was a debate on whether the article on Conservative Party (UK) should include "euroscepticism" as an ideology in the article's infobox. There are several reliable, mainstream sources that describe the UK Tories as a eurosceptic party. Nevertheless, the conclusion of the discussion (which you can still read in that article's talk page) was that including "euroscepticism" in the infobox would be contrary to the WP:DUE policy on the grounds that it would give undue weight to one faction of the party.
 * "Ultranationalism" is a form of nationalism, a subcategory. Since "Finnish Nationalism" was already mentioned in the infobox, there is no need to list its subcategories. (Alternatively, if you believe that "ordinary" nationalism and ultranationalism are clearly different things, should you then not be opposed to having plain nationalism included in the infobox? If you believe that there is a "clear difference", do you not think it is contradictory to have both in the infobox?) Also consider that the infobox is not intended to be an exhaustive, complete description of the party's ideology but rather a summary of it. More detailed descriptions can be included in the article proper. There already is a "controversies" section. If you feel that it is warranted, you can add accusations of ultranationalism there, but its place is not in the infobox summary.
 * You cite the example of Japan's LDP article but there ultranationalism is mentioned only as a "faction" which is not the same as what you are pushing in this article (and I see from the edit summaries of LDP that your edits in that article have been a subject of dispute as well). And I see that you have been actively involved in editing the other two example articles you cite as well; these are then hardly neutral examples of what the model of a good Wikipedia article is (you're trying to invoke yourself as an authority).
 * If one reliable source is considered to be enough, I'll just go ahead and add "Centre" to the infobox's "political position" and will cite Timo Soikkanen, professor of political history who has said that in his view the Finns Party's position on the political map is located in the middle "between the bourgeois and the left" and argued that the party's rightful place in the parliament's plenary is in the centre of it. Source: Uusi Suomi, 7 May 2019 --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 17:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

, Firstly I want to thank for your input. It is free to edit WP article. If you think you have reliable sources please edit it. I think this discussion will be endless with two of us. I think another wp User has to participate this discussion. Since I'm not familiar with Finns party it would be rational choice to find other users to participate this discussion. If my revision is considered to be wrong through discussion with multiple users I will immediately give up my revision of Finns party. Thank you. Ps: It is true that I had added Ultranationalism to LDP and Greek solution, but Vox has Ultranationalism in its ideology originally before I first edit the article. Jeff6045 22:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I would argue the Finns party don’t fall under ultranationalism (made obvious by my recent edits). The source for calling them ultranationalist consists of two words from a Bloomberg article and nothing more. If more and better sourcing can be found to make such a claim claim credible, then I would support letting the it remain, but if not, it should either be removed or we should hold and RfC. Victor Salvini (talk) 00:37, 12 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes. I find it odd that Jeff keeps directing people to this talk page when he has not refuted the arguments I have made here. I see that he also keeps accusing other users of vandalism, contrary to WP:AGF. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Eh, if I don’t see him respond to me in any of the talk pages he referred me to by tomorrow I’m changing the pages back again. Victor Salvini (talk) 18:44, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

, You have ignored my message for 16 days. And now your saying I'm accusing the people for nothing? Please don't be childish.


 * What sort of a response were you expecting from me when you wrote "I think this discussion will be endless with two of us"? In no way did that refute my arguments regarding the WP:DUE policy. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 01:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

, I suggest you to see talk page on Progress Party (Norway). I had added right-wing populism to party's ideology due to observation of foreign media. However user Heptor has suggested 5 reliable sources that denies the party as populist. So I immediately give up my revision. If you give reliable sources that denies the party as ultranationalist, you're free to revert your revision. Thank you, and lastly I want to apologize for my late response. Jeff6045 23:42, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

In the following sources the Finns party is described as “nationalist”, “populist”, “right wing” and more multiple times. I dug through other sources as well and failed to find any that refer to the party as “ultranationalist”. This is my issue with calling them so, if the party was in fact ultranationalist I would imagine news websites such as BBC would be quick to refer to them as such and not just “nationalist”.

BBC calls the party “nationalist”, “populist”, and “eurosceptic” https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32627013

Helsinki Times refers to the party as “populist” and “right wing” https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/politics/16834-finns-party-thriving-national-coalition-languishing-in-opposition-shows-poll.html

Reuters refers to them as “nationalist” and “eurosceptic” https://www.reuters.com/article/us-finland-election/finnish-social-democrats-and-nationalist-finns-party-nearly-tied-in-election-idUSKCN1RP0RI

And in an article (which is very heavily biased against the Finns party) by European interest, multiple opponents of the party are quoted, not one of them refers to the party as ultranationalist https://www.europeaninterest.eu/article/debating-whether-finns-party-belongs-far-right-not/

The source we currently are using is the only source I’ve been able to find that call the Finns party ultranationalist while multiple others sources do not, this is why I oppose this article calling the party ultranationalist.

TLDR no other source has called them ultranationalist

Victor Salvini (talk) 00:18, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank for your input. I think nationalism contains ultra-nationalism as hyponym. Also I think the source is not enough to delete ultra-nationalism in party's ideology. However since you have suggested sources I will invite few users whether to decide the source is enough to delete ultra-nationalism in party's ideology. Thank you.

Ps: I reccommend you to invite other users for fair discussion. Jeff6045 00:37, 13 October 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff6045 (talk • contribs)

I have invited ohther users on the discussion. Until other users participate the discussion please wait. Thank you. Jeff6045 01:04, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
 * "I think nationalism contains ultra-nationalism as hyponym" Oh, so why did you earlier write in this very discussion: "There is clear difference between nationalism and ultranationalism"? --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 01:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Nationalism is the idea of putting your country’s interests over the interest of other countries. Ultranationalism is the idea of, as I believe some ultranationalists have put it: “the national good over the individual.” These are two very different ideas whose adherents can sometimes oppose each other. Saying nationalism is a hyponym for Ultranationalism would be like saying communism is a hyponym for democratic socialism. Victor Salvini (talk) 01:25, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion... I also don't think Finns party is an ultranationalist. Northern European major right-wing populist parties see themselves much more moderate than the major right-wing populist parties of other countries. But I don't know much about the Finns Party, so it's just a personal idea.--삭은사과 (talk) 01:30, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Please be calm. You should at least give message that you have read my input. There is no way but to think you have ignored my message. Secondly do you know that right-wing politics contains cnetre-right and far-right politics as hyponym? But there is clear difference with right-wing politics and cnetre-right politics. Also left-wing politics contains Left-wing fascism and Left-libertarianism as hyponym. But we know that left-wing fascism has clear difference with normal left-wing political due to their extrimism. In the same manner although nationalism contains ultranationalism as hyponym, we know that there is clear difference between two of them. Thank you. Jeff6045 01:38, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

, thank for your input. However socialism contains communism and democratic socialism as hyponym. Am I wrong? Jeff6045 01:45, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I would argue that if this were before the time of the Russian revolution you would be correct, but now the ideologies have all become more or less separate of each other. A good example of a hyponym in terms of ideology would be how mosleyism and falangism both fall under the umbrella of fascism. Victor Salvini (talk) 01:48, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

If my example is wrong I apologize for this. I think that communism and democratic socialism is basically rooted on socialism. So I think it is not inadequate to see socialism contains communism and democratic socialism as hyponym. Jeff6045 02:06, 13 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I do not see why we should list eight or nine different ideologies unless the party has eight or nine separate ideological groups. The purpose of the infobox is to provide key information, not detailed analysis. We could just summarize all these ideologies with the description "far right" which refers to this family of ideologies.
 * Also, while communism and socialism were terms used interchangeably in the 19th century, there was a split over WWI leading to separate groups, one which took the name socialist and the other communist. The fact that sometimes the term socialist includes communists should not cause great confusion. TFD (talk) 02:24, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Was asked to give my views here. Initially I thought it was probably undue weight to call the party ultranationalist, since I could only find one source that stated this (the currently listed Bloomberg one). However, I have since found this source that states the same - https://www.france24.com/en/20171218-europes-far-right-plays-keeps-but-faces-hurdles. Most sources that I have found that call the party ultranationalist refer to it when it was named the True Finns. However as far as I'm aware when they changed their name they didn't tone down their version nationalism. Since the Bloomberg source and this source are far more recent than the one for simply Finnish nationalism (2019 and 2017 vs a source from 2010) I think ultranationalism should stay in the infobox. Helper201 (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

The sources I posted above discuss only the Finns party and all but one came from this year (I don’t know where you go the “one source from 2010” form). Just like other European nationalist parties (such as the Sweden democrats) I believe the Finns party has moderated over the years, hence being called ultranationalist in years past, but only nationalist today. Due to this I still oppose having Ultranationalism in the info box Victor Salvini (talk) 03:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Just had a look at those sources. The BBC one is from 2015. Of the others the only one that explicitly calls the party nationalist is the Reuters one, the others don't include the word nationalist/nationalism, so void WP:SYNTH. The source from 2010 I am referring to is the one currently used in the infobox to support Finnish nationalism. I don't see anything wrong with using the BBC or Reuters sources to support that the party is nationalist, but I don't think either take away from the two sources calling the party ultrantionalist. Both claims seem suitable to include to me. Helper201 (talk) 04:08, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Can you give source that finns party has been moderate over years? I think this can be key point of this discussion. Jeff6045 04:08, 13 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Just to chime in, the source (Yle 2009) is already in the article. Yle (Yleisradio) is the national broadcasting corporation so it's considered a reliable source. It cites a phone interview study (n = 8,539) by Taloustutkimus, an established polling company. Viz.:
 * perussuomalaiset ovat ideologialtaan keskustalaisia - "PS are by their ideology centrists"
 * Ideologinen hajonta on puolueessa suurta. Asteikolla 1-10, jossa 1 on äärimmäinen vasemmisto ja 10 äärimmäinen oikeisto, perussuomalaiset saavat arvon 5,4. Suomalaisten keskiarvo on 5,5. - "Scatter in ideology in the party is big. On a scale of 1-10, where 1 is extreme left and 10 is extreme right, PS get a score of 5.4. The average among Finns is 5.5."
 * Perussuomalaisille ja keskustalle on yhteistä isänmaallis-konservatiivinen perusasenne. Molemmat vetoavat maanläheisyyteen ja tavallisuuteen. Samalla ne arvostelevat kapitalismia, juppimeinikiä ja cityvihreyttä. "Common for PS and Centre Party is the patriotic-conservative basic attitude. Both appeal to maanläheisyys (the quality of being down-to-earth) and ordinariness/commonness. At the same time they criticise capitalism, yuppieism and being "urban Green"."
 * In summary, this amply demonstrates the "dissident Centre" pedigree of the PS, despite formally not being a continuation of Vennamo's SMP. Besides, I think it's important to understand that populism is not a term applied to PS by someone else. They proudly claim being populist. It's right there in Timo Soini's thesis, which idolizes Vennamo. --vuo (talk) 18:17, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

HEADS UP: I would like to make those discussing here aware that there are similar conversations going on at the AfD and Greek solution talk pages about whether or not those parties qualify as ultranationalist:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#/talk/2

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Solution#/talk/2 Victor Salvini (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I just got done talking with someone I know who lives in Finland, they told me essentially what vuo said, that the Finns party is not ultranationalist but more towards the center (I personally don’t agree with the Finns being a center party, but you get the point). Victor Salvini (talk) 16:02, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Victor Salvini has suggested new sources. I want to hear your input about it. Jeff6045 21:58, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

We haven't heard Helper201's opinion about your source, also we need more discussion about it. I suggest we should wait just one more week. And after that if there is no other users refute about your input, you're free to delete ultra-nationalism in party's ideology. Please, let's be more patient. Thank you. Jeff6045 13:25, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Alright, I will wait to see if anyone else chimes in. Victor Salvini (talk) 13:39, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank for your consideration. Jeff6045 21:43, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * While Bloomberg has called them "ultranationalist", it seems undue for the article in my opinion. Ultranationalism is a very infrequently used term and seems rather meaningless when compared to nationalism. Terms like right-wing populism, far-right politics far more prominent in European politics, essentially covering the same base. --Pudeo (talk) 07:10, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

I count 4 users opposed to ultranationalism in the infobox and 2 in favour. If there is no further discussion, I will interpret this discussion as a consensus against the inclusion of ultranationalism in the infobox. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 12:03, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't the party position be syncretic?
The Finns Party is essentially a social democratic to democratic socialist party with right wing social views similar to that of the British Tory party and some of the less extreme parts of the American Republican party. But economically they're center-left to left-wing. Some of them have even advocated for elements of a Soviet-style planned economy. In fact, the party leader Laura Huhtassari reminds me a lot of Belarus's president Alexander Lukashenko on many issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.205.95 (talk) 22:11, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

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