Talk:Fire performance

No Fire Juggling page?
There doesn't seem to be a fire juggling page; only fire-dancing and an article on the prop 'Torch (juggling)'. Should fire juggling have its own page? Just as Juggling and Juggling clubs are seperate, surely 'Torch' and 'Fire juggling' should be separate. I don't know anything about the history of fire juggling etc. so I can't really start the page myself (but will if someone points me in the right direction).

Posting here as there are more people and may get an answer :) Thanks.

Prolinol (talk) 17:38, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're welcome to start one up yourself. Just make sure the topic of fire juggling meets our notability guidelines by including discussion of the concept from reliable, third-party sources. If the topic is allowable, and the content is verifiable and neutral than the article should stick around.  Them  From  Space  19:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Links Removed
Adamrice,

The link you removed from this page was to a fire safety section on a webiste. It's not self promotion. Home of Poi has link to their HOME PAGE, which is designed to funnel users to their shopping section. What's so bad about having fire safety as an external link? I"m just gonna go ahead, and put it back there. It's the easiest to digest safety information around.  If you can find a better safety article,  change the link to point to it, don't just delete it.+

thanks.
 * Since every link in your edit history has gone to the same website, it's hard to credit your assertion that it isn't self-promotion. Since you don't have a Wikipedia account and we don't know anything about you, that's all we have to go on. There is a link to HoP here, but it wasn't put here by anyone at HoP--despite being a commercial site, it's an important resource, and the merits of including it have been argued before. Having taken a look at the link in question, I see no actual safety information that isn't mentioned at the NAFAA site (also linked here) as well as a dozen other places. Some of the suggestions at that site are arguable, and there's considerable conversational fluff to plow through to get to the point. adamrice 14:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Just added chi ball (also sometimes known as a magic orb or fire orb) to the list of non-rhythmic fire apparatus Misguided Oracle 13:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

"Annoying self-promoter"? I'm sorry, I just assumed that people searching for fire twirling on Wikipedia might be interested in some relevant links, for example, a website containing pictures of fire twirling. My bad... I must also apologise profusely for imposing upon Wikipedia users interested in Huntsman spiders; it was very rude of me to provide them with links to photographs of Huntsman spiders... and for providing examples of macro photography to those researching macro photography, or examples of Canon equipment in action for those interested in the Canon company. I realise now just how annoying that must be...
 * When a person comes into Wikipedia and creates a bunch of links to his own website, that is considered link spamming, and yes, it is annoying. The "external links" section of a Wikipedia article is typically limited to a few canonical outside references on the subject. Your website doesn't qualify in these cases. If you do have a website that is widely recognized as being the place to look for information on a certain subject, then go ahead and link to it, if it hasn't been linked already--though it would probably raise fewer eyebrows if you let somebody else recognize its greatness and link to it instead). Also, you can sign your posts on talk pages by typing four tildes in a row (like this, without the spaces: ~ ~ ~ ~). adamrice 14:51, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I never said anything about it being my own website...
 * That's true, but the fact that you posted a bunch of links in different articles, all pointing to the same website, with which you are obviously well acquainted, suggest that either it's your own site, or you are shilling for it. adamrice 14:11, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Pedant, if you're going to change the target of the Poi link, you need to refactor the "poi" page as well (and probably put up a disambiguation page). Currently it serves for both poi the food and poi the juggling prop. adamrice 15:05, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Merger
Yes, I think they should be merged. This article explicitly refers to "fire twirling" as an alternative name for the same thing. The "fire twirling" article is staff-centric and makes some POVish assertions. adamrice 15:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree they should probably be combined, but the names for this particular form of fire performance art does vary by region. I'm surprised that there is not a listing for "fire-spinning" which is probably the most common term I've heard used here in Seattle. Hathor

While terms may vary by region, "dancing" is a fairly generic term, and can encompass a wider variety of arts, wherein "spinning" or "twirling" are not part of the art. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind seeing fire-dancing become more generalized, and point to specific popular arts: poi, staff, fire-eating, fire-(blasting|breathing), etc. Lastly, Hathor, fire-spinning currently points to fire dancing MJohnson 21:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that they should be merged. FeuerFrei, I'm not totally sure I understand what you mean about fire dancing being generic, and fire spinning/fire twirling not being part of the art. Can you give a specific example of how someone would 'fire dance' that would not be 'fire spinning' or vice versa. Fireguy 09:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Figureguy--fans, clubs (in some styles), palm torches, and finger wands are all fire tools that are not spun; if anything, these emphasize the "dance" aspect of the performance more. In the Firedancing article, I made this distinction between "rhythmic" and "non-rhythmic" tools. adamrice 15:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I feel they should both be revamped to separate the spinning tools from the movement (as adamrice said; Rhythmic) tools... Personally I fire twirl, But trust me I can't dance to save my life... There is a clear difference and I reckon you should consult someone from Home of Poi to perhaps edit both pages to what they really should be. - Moka

The 2 things seem ti be the same, the only difference is the names, which are said to be alternate on the articles. So yeah! They should definetly be merged. WordWhiz 01:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well; dancing is generic enough to cover twirling, and although there may be possible distinctions made, I think the activity is still similar enough to merely be mentioned in a merged article section in this case. -- Jugalator 17:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I was about to Be Bold and follow consensus, and merge the articles, but I couldn't find any information contained in the "twirling" article that wasn't included in the "dancing" article, with more detail being located in the dancing article. With that in mind, I propose that the twirling article be simply made into a redirect. Fieari 20:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Done Phidauex 23:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Basically the articles are one and the same. I also think Fire Dancing would be a better term to use, as there are "Fire Shows" at every beach bar on every beach in Thailand and nobody ever mentioned spinning or twirling.

Fire Knife Dancing
Do not confuse "Fire Twirling/Dancing" to "Fire Knife Dancing". Although you may think it's one in the same, it isn't. Here's a site that explains each "fire dancing" styles and techniques... (various fire dancing). I am going to add this link to the article.

The birth of Fire Knife Dancing was around 1945, founded by Freddie Letuli, Father of the Fire Knife. By tying strips of towel at each end of the Samoan knives and soaking it with kerosene, the first Samoan Fire Knife was born.

Fire Knife Dancing is known as "Siva Afi" in Samoan. It originated from the "Knife Dance" (Samoan nifo 'oti).

I will add more information later, as it is getting late.

--Webmistress Diva 10:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "Firedancing" is a pretty broad term that covers a number of specific tools, techniques, and traditions. Despite your objection, I do believe it covers fire-knife dancing. What is your basis for saying it doesn't? adamrice 14:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the external link of our site: I added our link back on the "external links" section. I don't know who removed it and why, but it is not a commercial link. Samoan Fire Knife Dancing was founded by Freddie Letuli, whom the site commemorates on. Yes, we hold a yearly competition, which promotes and enhances the future for Samoan Fire Knife Dancing. So, yes, it's very important that it does not get deleted, otherwise people will not know the differences. --Webmistress Diva 16:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed it, and I am about to do it again. Self-linking is against wikipedia policy. If your site is really worth being linked to, I am sure third party with no stake in it will do so. adamrice 16:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

BAM - Merged
Based on about a month of silence on the issue, and no obvious objections, I've merged fire-twirling with fire dancing. Fire-twirling included basically no information not already dealt with in fire dancing, and was definately staff-centric. If at some point people wish, they could begin elaborating on various fire tools by breaking the unordered list into a collection of ====subsections==== with more detail on the design and construction of each tool, potentially including images of that tool. Phidauex 23:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Excess images
This article has too many images that look the same... We should pick one, or two of the standard 'long shutter time' fire pictures that are of exceptional quality, and then remove the others. This isn't a photo gallery! If we want more pictures, I'd suggest we break the unordered lists in the fire apparatus section into individual subsections with close-ups of the tools in question. I will begin work on this at some point soon, but I wanted to toss it out there in case anyone would like to start contributing properly licensed images to the wikimedia commons, or wants to start breaking the unordered list up for more details. Peace. Phidauex 23:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge Fire fetish into this article
I've just placed merge tags on both articles to start some discussion on this. The new article Fire fetish seems to be more suitable for inclusion here than to be on its own. Robotman1974 11:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey there Robotman1974, I wrote the fire fetish article after doing some editing in the main fire dancing article.

By many I am considered an expert on this area, having coined the term a number of years ago to describe a type of show which we were prototyping, performed in such shows for years, and being the moderator of the more active discussion forums on the topic [the one at tribe.net]

I made it a seperate entry to highlight the difference between fire fetish as an emerging subcategory of performance, and also to distinguish it from pyrophilia which is a psychological condition.

I'm not opposed to merger, if there were to be other subcategories created for some of the other emerging hybrid forms, but on its own, it would draw incorrect inferences as to how widespread this phenemenon is.Fireninja 02:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

So I wrote up a modern developments in fire dancing section and now the fire fetish article is redundant. Merge complete. Fireninja 20:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've tied up the loose ends. Thanks Fireninja. Robotman1974 21:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Fuel
Kerosene, parrafin, paraffin oil, jet-a, avtur, lamp oil, jet fuel ARE ALL THE SAME BASIC FUEL. If you are the mong that put in seperate entries for kerosene and paraffin oil, go and have a word with yourself. Ever heard of 'research'? That sort of thing drags wikipedia down. *rant out* MrFire 22:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I see it's been cleaned up, nice one whoever sorted that section. 212.139.120.60 17:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The bold script in 'fuel' needs cleaning up. It seems to have a valid point, but needs to be stated more clearly. I do not know enough about the fuels in question to do this myself, so just hoping that an expect can take a look at it and rewrite it. Fildon (talk) 16:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I have a concern about the white gas section. It claims that white gas is a higher burn risk and hard to obtain. I only use white gas and I buy it gallons at a time from walmart without even needing a ID. So the hard to obtain part is false. As for the higher burn risk, I wil frequently accept white gas onto my hands or arms for added effect and have never been burned by it. If anything the high temperature and speed of the burning allows for safer contact IMHO Eclipsedshadows 19:16, 26 May 2010

Fuels
Sections fuels needs to be edited, as is there is currently a rant that enters first person and references the fact that this is a wiki; the paragraph beginning "NB:" in the middle of the list needs to go. Regardless of the quality of the point, it looks out of place. Someone with more expertise than me should evaluate the point being made and incorporate it into the section if necessary, but as is, it can't exist. ThunderkatzHo! 05:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I noticed in the section of fuels somethings that wasn't quite clear. The following excerpt seems to say that mixing both in the same batch will produce biodiesel. However, I don't think that's the intention. "Biodiesel - Both KOH, potassium hydroxide and NaOH, sodium hydroxide can be used in the process but only one or the other, never both in the same batch. This produces glycerin and methyl esters, aka Biodiesel. ..."

Also, it would be nice if someone experienced in the art(s) would answer my following question; Does using different fuels at separate times change the way the other fuels burn or ruin the wick? I know someone who always uses stinky kerosene. I get the impression that mixing at least certain fuels are ok, but I would like more information on the effects of different fuels on same wicks, more on the burning properties as it would concern a firespinner. I was quite pleased to have found out as much as I did, but I'll definitely need to do more research as for a friend this is quite important for performing inside a venue in two days where she is unable to use her usual fuel. Often, Wikipedia has been a one-stop experience for me. Thanks everyone for all your effort and/or input! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icecheez (talk • contribs) 05:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Removing the reference to Shellsol T msds data. Shellsol T is recognized as a clean fuel (I am open to discussion and can provided data sheets and msds). All MSDS sheets for fuels contain the listed hazards, eye irratation, possibility of acute toxicity oral, inhalation etc. Inclusion of detailed toxicity data on each fuel here would easily blow the article out of size. Open to discussion on how else or where else people could be directed to reliable detailed fuel information.Bitstorm (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Revolution of the Flame
I tagged the section with Citation Needed, but I'm worried about devoting an entire section to Revolution of the Flame. I'm certainly not convinced with zero sources that they deserve to be here any more than non-notable band pages belong over in the music articles. If I don't see any discussion crop up on this soon, I'm just going to delete it. WP:NOTE, WP:NEUTRALITY, WP:SOURCES, WP:IAR. ◗●◖ falkreon (talk) 03:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Revolution of the Flame Fire Performance Troupe - sounds like advertisement for me 94.27.71.196 (talk) 11:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Second that, sounds like self promotion.Bitstorm (talk) 06:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Cirque du Soleil
I'm not sure if the Cirque du Soleil reference is appropriate, and seems to follow along the lines of self-promotion as some others have been talking about. I recommend removal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.46.245.231 (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Added safety info
Just moved some fire-specific safety information here from the poi article, as it is an important fire dancing topic and not unique to poi.

Wordscratch, 13 September 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 12:30, 13 September 2011 (UTC).

Proposed Move for this page - new title
This page seems to be a general page about fire performance and fire arts not just fire dancing which is a specific term used for a type of fire performance. I propose to move this page to one title 'fire performance' or 'fire arts'. If there are no objections put forward on this talk page within a month I will do this without further notice Robynthehode (talk) 05:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Fire troupe be merged into Fire performance. I think that the content in the Fire troupe article can easily be explained in the context of Fire performance, and the Fire performance article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Fire troupe will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Robynthehode (talk) 08:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that a merger would be good. In addition, Fire art probably fits here somewhere. Cxbrx (talk) 02:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support merge. In its 9 years of existing Fire troupe never seemed to have much potential for expansion so I think it should be merged here instead. Sro23 (talk) 11:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed and ✅ Klbrain (talk) 15:49, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Klbrain for doing the merge. However the fire troupe text, I believe, should not be in the lead. I have moved it to its own section and renamed another section to make it more consistent. Whole article needs more work and references but no time at moment.Robynthehode (talk) 11:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me, Robynthehode; thanks for keeping an eye on the page. I've ammended the Fire troupe redirect so that it now links directly to the section you've made. Klbrain (talk) 12:38, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Inaccuracy in History/Poi
At the bottom of the History section the article claims that the Maori soaked poi in fuel and lit them on fire. This is not true, and the source [4] that is cited actually says the opposite, noting that "Contrary to popular belief, traditionally poi was never actually lit on fire. The art of dipping poi balls into fuel and lighting them on fire did not occur until the mid 20th century, as a progression of the Samoan fire knife." 75.164.190.127 (talk) 07:29, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Fire fetish & erotic fire
"Unlike a fire fetish show, this performance is generally more low-key, slower in tempo, and may be performed by a solo dancer in front of a small and select audience, often a spouse or romantic partner." To me this sounds exactly like a possible fire fetish show. The description of the fire fetish also fits the erotic fire show. Doesn't sound like there's really a difference, no? Biofase flame | stalk 05:06, 10 April 2023 (UTC)