Talk:Firefly (dinghy)

Dimensions?
can anbody help with the dimensiona of the firefly — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.116.16 (talk)


 * ✅ as part of the re-write 5 July 2022. - Ahunt (talk) 20:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

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Claims that the Firefly is produced by Ovington Boats
In June and July 2023, there have been several editors trying to remove existing manufacturers and insert Ovington Boats as the manufacturer, without citing any sources. First off, the official Ovington website shows they do not produce the boat. Second, the Official Rondar website shows they are still producing the boat. Thirdly, even if production moves to a new company Wikipedia does not remove past manufacturers as we cover history, not current marketing. Regardless, with Ovington indicating that the Firefly is not a boat they build, any further attempts to insert this without refs will be treated as vandalism and reverted. - Ahunt (talk) 21:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/259679/Firefly-Class-appoint-new-builder Firefly sailing (talk) 22:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You're deleting the edits before we can reference them or mark ourselves as connected contributors Firefly sailing (talk) 22:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Rondar had their licence removed and are required to remove the boat from their website but still have not complied and Whitecap Composites have never held a build license but still advertise themselves as class builders on their website.
 * We're not completely removing Rondar, we're adding Ovington and the other historic builders Firefly sailing (talk) 22:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0376gzdQXjRDwtdmx5ZQn2P4kT3VSTpshi3sS6U8Uoc7q4i1dfLibJJKnAPBU9KL8sl&id=100051408975773 Firefly sailing (talk) 22:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ahunt? Firefly sailing (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for coming here to discuss. Please let me do the updating, as it will save a lot of time messing up formatting, refs and if you represent the class contracting the builder you are in a conflict of interest anyway. Your www.yachtsandyachting.com ref above I can use to update the article, but it only mentions Ovington starting production and Rodar ending, not any other past builders. If you want me to add other past builder then I need refs for them as well. - Ahunt (talk) 22:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Okay I have added Ovington as the current builder, reworked the production text, refs, the infobox and archived the old websites in external links.


 * You might want ask Ovington to put up an official webpage. It is odd that has been five months since they started up production plans and no web page! If you have refs for any other past builders please do just drop them here on this page and I will add them for you. - Ahunt (talk) 22:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * They're not allowed to advertise the boat until the trials have completed and been accepted. The rules were written before the internet so are a bit archaic. Firefly sailing (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That is kind of crazy, you would think they could at least say "coming soon" or "order today for August". It has led to problems here when the last person and then you, too, claimed that Ovington was building Fireflies, so the first thing I do is check Ovington's website to see if they are, are they aren't. Meanwhile Rondar has a webpage up and you can order from them. You might want to suggest getting those rules fixed. - Ahunt (talk) 23:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * How would we have Whitecap Composites removed from the builder list? They've never held a license to build Fireflies and have just set up a page claiming to build them? Firefly sailing (talk) 23:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * We have several independent third party refs like this one and this one that show Whitecap as a builder, plus of course their own company website archive, too. This is not a list of "class association licensed builders", but a list of builders of any status. If you have a ref that says they were specifically not licenced to build them we could add that, but otherwise they were building Fireflies so they are listed. - Ahunt (talk) 23:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * non class source for history and other builders
 * http://www.chipsteadsc.org.uk/index.php/classes/double-handed/firefly/history Firefly sailing (talk) 23:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay thanks, let me see what I can get from that. - Ahunt (talk) 23:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅. - Ahunt (talk) 00:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Whitecap and have never built a Firefly as they've never had a mould. They've never been a builder of any status - licensed or otherwise. Y
 * The license is the rights to use the design and is issued by the Uffa Fox estate not the class associati.n
 * You can self-submit to the "independent sources", they're just marine business listings Firefly sailing (talk) 23:41, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay I check that Fox's estate holds the Firefly rights. Many manufacturers have built boats without paying royalties, or by making their own moulds and we have them listed in many articles as part of the boat's history when we can establish that. We know that Whitecap at least advertised that they built Fireflies, but do we have any proof about the licensing status either way for those boats? The sources I listed above are pretty careful as to what information they accept from outside sources. Sailboatdata in particular checks all claims made against reliable documentation, like brochures and manuals before publishing it. It is not "user editable". - Ahunt (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * there are different kinds of boat designs - the Firefly is a single manufacturer one design, this means that all boats must come from the same licenced mould to be a Firefly. Manufacturers cannot build their own moulds without first obtaining a licence to do so from the Uffa Fox estate Firefly sailing (talk) 00:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And sailboat data openly say they take user submissions https://sailboatdata.com/about/ Firefly sailing (talk) 00:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I get what you are saying, but I have submitted stuff to sailboatdata's publishers, I have sent them photos for use and also updates on data as well. Anyone can submit stuff for their consideration, but they are very scrupulous about what they publish, it is all corroborated to reliable, primary sources.
 * You need to keep in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. We don't work for Fox's estate or the class association, we're independent, which is why we have strict policies on people in conflicts or interest. We use references, preferably independent, third party references to create articles like this one on the Firefly. We don't work from rumours or original research, everything has to be cited to published, reliable sources. Because we are not working for the class association, the builder, or anyone else, the article may not say what you want it to say, it may even list builders who weren't authorized to build the boats, but everything will be sourced and verifiable for anyone who wants to check where the text came from. If you have any published source that says Whitecap were not an authorized builder, not a real builder or anything similar, I would be happy to add that to the text. - Ahunt (talk) 00:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Ahunt - would this be enough to have Whitecap Composites removed from the entry https://trellis.law/docs/%22Rondar%20Raceboats%20Ltd%22?state=ma, particularly https://trellis.law/doc/55070937/3rd-party-complaint-filed and https://trellis.law/doc/55070578/original-civil-complaint-filed Firefly sailing (talk) 14:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)