Talk:First Battle of the Marne

Error about Metz?
The article refers to a French garrison besieged at Metz among other places. But at the time Metz was part of Germany, with a German garrison. A French garrison was besieged at Metz in The Franco-Prussian War but not in 1914. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.239.82 (talk) 04:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

That's right, in 1914 the Germans held Metz. Missaeagle (talk) 15:26, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Same with Thionville, and the garrison at Longwy surrendered on Aug 26th. All these errors are still present in the article.

Marne Taxis "critical"?
In the German article, it says that the famous Marne taxis were mainly a propagandistic success but in fact rather insignificant for the actual fighting, because they only managed to take a total of about 6,000 troops to the front, while 50,000 troops were killed every day and many more were wounded.

6000 men would he half a division delivered to a critical spot to 6th French Army at a critical time. Three regiments can make a difference in a close run thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Missaeagle (talk • contribs) 06:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Are there any sources for the "critical" role that is attributed to the Taxi cabs in the English article? --Cancun771 06:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't say that - it says they are TRADITIONALLY described as 'critical'. Tom Black 19:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Here & throughout -- this article seems poorly sourced. Wouldn't that improve it significantly? ABS (talk) 21:48, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Memorials
Are there any more than that horse one? Its kind of pathetic as is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.104.229.66 (talk) 01:51, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The Crawfords tale is a very nice yarn but, alas, unsubstantiated. A much more likely explanation of the statue (which depicts a single horse and a single artillery driver) is found here "To the east of the massive Australian national memorial north of Villers-Bretonneux, twelve kilometres to the east of the city of Amiens, is the small village of le Hamel with its recently built hilltop memorial to the Australian victory there on the 4th of July 1918. Eastwards lies flat country which was ideal for charging heavy and light tanks, with the armoured cars raiding the fourteen kilometres to Proyart and Framerville-Rainecourt. Above the valley, on the other side of the river Somme, is the Chipilly Spur. At its base commemorating the 58th (London) Division's capture of the Spur is the emotive staue of an artilleryman comforting his wounded horse. . . Besides this statue and the Australian memorials, there is little to show of those four days in August 1918." (Note the date discrepancy here.) Moreover, there seems to be no available text of a plaque to identify the statue as a specific memorial. I have to agree with the above unsigned IP that the section is insubstantial enough to be deleted, at least for the time being, until a better collection of properly cited items can be produced. On the other hand, there is already a perfectly good article on War memorial. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 06:16, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I should recap that the 'horse memorial' pic is here. It's actually an amalgam of two shots taken from different angles. Its publisher's description (which has no bearing whatever on the Crawfords yarn) is to found at the foot of this page:- "Below is what I believe to be one of the most touching memorials capturing both the suffering of the almost half million horses killed in the Great War, as well as the anguish of his driver as he embraces his faithful servant farewell. The memorial is in a little village called Chipilly on the banks of the River Somme. . . The photograph is taken from two angles so as to highlight the poignancy of the statue" The "date discrepancy" I raised above is between the 1918 action at Chipilly and the 8 Sep 1914 alleged date of the uncited Crawfords' actions. Bjenks (talk) 08:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion.
Ipage. Plus if you have anymore info on this subject or any other WWI battle, could you please add to Spawn Man 00:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

As I can see, no one actually has been on this page & has decided to write anything. Ah well. Spawn Man 05:09, 7 September 2005 (UTC) Hi i think this it at school im going to belgium next week and now understand everything i needed to thankyou, jodie

French Military
Maybe the Republican politician (and Vietnam era draft dodger), Roy Blunt, should apologize for the ignorant joke that he made concerning the French, "Do you know how many Frenchmen it takes to defend Paris? It's not known. It's never been tried". Apparently in September, 1914 80,000 Frenchmen died SUCCESSFULLY defending Paris! Jay Gregg

The German armies had wheeled to the east of Paris before the battle of the Marne. The point of the Schlieffen plan was to try and outflank the French and then outflank their right flank and encircle the whole French army around the positions of the French right wing. Paris was never the objective of the Germans, destruction of the French Army in the field outside of Paris was the purpose. The statement still makes sense in this case, if you wanted to be more correct, you should go back to the Franco-Prussian War and the siege of Paris. --24.202.1.112 (talk) 03:18, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Who won?
I know that the side box is supposed to be a quick reference, but neiter that nor the article stated who won. So who is it???Dogmanice 00:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Result: 	Strategically decisive Allied victory -- Mackensen (talk) 00:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, no one really won, as far as I remember. The First Battle of the Marne was the desperate Allied attempt to keep the Germans from reaching Paris. In the end, hundreds of thousands died, and then everyone settled down in trenches. This was the beginning of trench warfare, which lasted throughout World War One. -Gunslinger

Almost the entire war; until the German breakthrough in 1918 and resumption of movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Missaeagle (talk • contribs) 06:40, 7 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, a Phyrrhic victory in some respects. It's an open question whether a German victory would have ended the war and thus saved everyone a lot of aggravation. On the other hand, the battle was a clear victory for the Entente in that it stopped the German offensive. Mackensen (talk) 01:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it may have taken France out of the picture. But I don't believe that it would have ended the entire war.  Although the Schlieffen Plan could have worked if they had only taken Paris.  Eh, who knows?  It really is impossible to draw any conclusions, as there are so many variables in war.


 * At that stage of the War "Taking France out of the picture" would have ended the land war in the west. And unlike WW2 I doubt Britian would have continued the fight. Remember if the Marne was lost the BEF, basically the entire British Regular army would have been destroyed. Chances are the war would have ended in Central powers victory with the removal of France, that was the plan after all!

First Marne was unquestionably an Allied victory, and a very important one. Moltke was under no illusion when he told the Kaiser, "Your Majesty, we have lost the war." The Marne stopped the Schlieffen Plan. Now Germany had a war on her hands that she did not know how to end. It eventually led to her ruin, all because of the Miracle at the Marne.UberCryxic 18:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Had Germany taken Paris and routed the Allied armies, France would have been forced to sign an armistice. The ground war in the West would have ended. Germany would have transferred its western forces to the east and almost certainly inflicted a devestating defeat against the Russians, although the Germans would very likely NOT have tried to take Moscow. The Czar would have also sued for peace well before that. Germany would have dominated Europe and become the world's leading power, assuming "its rightful place" and attempting to spread German culture throughout south and southeastern Europe and elsewhere. German strength relative its rivals was much greater in 1914 than it would be in 1939, and its technological edge against Russia far greater. Perhaps Britain would have continued a naval war for some time. It is doubtful Germany would have attempted any invasion of the Nritish Isles. Following Russia's defeat, there would likely have been a "Concert of Berlin" type peace conference and a general settlement establishing Germany as the dominant power in Europe.

It is interesting to speculate as to whether this would have better for the West and the world or not. Certainly, at the time, it was seen as a disasterous possibility. In retropsect, we know what happened as a result of Germany's eventual defeat. Wilhemine Germany was conservative and reactionary, but still a far, far cry from the barbarous Third Reich. Millions of deaths that occurred later in the war would have been avoided, the rise of radical National Socialism and Hitler would have been averted, no Holocaust, etc. Moreover, the utter disillusionment of the West with Victorian ideals and the Victorian world order would not have happened; or at least, that world would have slowly faded over decades rather than implode with shocks that still reverberate today, though unrecognized as such. The U.S. would have become only one Great Power rather than the dominant superpower, colonialism would have remained morally valid and politically/economically feasible for much longer, the 1960s social revolution and rise of liberal (small L) ideology and multiculturalism all delayed or deferred. Who knows?

It seems likely western countries today (including the U.S.) would be more bourgeois, more conservative, more religious, and have avoided the great bloodlettings of the rest of WWI and WWII, while smaller conflicts, especially over colonies and resources,might have been the norm. What was once considered "Western Culture" would still be strong. On the other hand, decolonization might still be going on, the plight of minorities in the U.S. would still be poor, and tolerance for and even advocacy of homosexuality, sexual freedom, etc., more muted.

Better for most white Europeans and Americans in the aggregate, perhaps, and no western decline; worse for the non-white world and minorities of all kinds.

All that never was to be because Moltke deviated from Schlieffen's Plan by not stripping the left wing and giving to the right, and because von Kluck made his fatal error of turning too soon, thinking the French already beat and eschewing the drive on Paris. Such are the vagaries of history.214.13.130.104 (talk) 11:20, 13 November 2009 (UTC)TexxasFinn

Short article
Surely a battle as significant as this one deserves a longer article... =\ – ugen64 03:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This article was nominated for Version 0.5 I failed this article because it's too short, just a little more than a stub. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 06:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes a battle as important as this one deserves to have far more coverage. For some reason I haven't gotten around to expanding this article. I hope someone beats me to it.UberCryxic 03:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

BEF
I think special mention should be made of the quality of the BEF troops. AllStarZ 23:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, by the time of First Marne, there were few of the original regulars left. The BEF was not retreating in the first part of the war, it was routed. Part of the German 1st Army smashed their positions at Mons on August 23, then on the 25th, at Le Cateau, the BEF suffered more casualties the Wellington did at Waterloo. By the 27th, the BEF HQ was in panic, orders were being sent out to discard ammunition and impedimenta, so as to not impede the retreat. This was when Sir John French started talking about leaving France altogether. The BEF's retreat did not stop till they were at the Seine, and were essentially out of harm's way. Now, it is true that the units of the BEF were the most professional and battle-experienced of all the combatants in the West. The Royal Warwickshire Regiment had seen action in 1907 in the Indian NW frontier area. But that mattered not, in the face of the superior German artillery and mortars. I feel that the BEF's original combat power, and its effectiveness was inflated greatly by later British propaganda, and never retracted.Marhault 05:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The BEF was not routed: They conducted an orderly fighting retreat from their original position @ Mons where they had held their ground and stoppped the advance of German 1st Army cold. They were only obligated to retreat when the French 5th Army on their right withdrew from their positions. Their fighting withdrawal lasted two weeks and the BEF lost c. 13,000 men and 50 guns leaving them with 70,000 men and 368 guns for the Battle of the Marne. They had always held their positions in the line, and no unit in the army was ever routed. Missaeagle (talk) 15:40, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I think too much is already being said. It looks like they were outnumbered by the French 60 to 1, yet most of the article is about English greatness. What a joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.203.223.82 (talk) 00:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The BEF had stopped the Germans dead in their tracks. The only reason they withdrew was to maintain the line with the beaten French troops. They sang 'We don't give a fuck for old Von Kluck & all his fucking army' for a reason.


 * The Germans continued the offensive after la Cateau. The BEF forced marched away out of contact for 48 straight hours. There's something seriously wrong with the Terraine narrative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.213.241 (talk) 05:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

250,000 German casualties at First Marne?
The Germans only turned in 85,000 dead on the Western Front, for the whole of 1914. It's reasonable to assume they had wounded comparable to the 3.25:1 they suffered through the course of the war, or about 275,000, for a total for all of 1914 in the West of 360,000. Were there only 110,000 German casualties in all the battles at the Belgian forts, Antwerp, Lille, "the Race to the Sea", action in the Verdun area, and the border battles? I don't think so. My guess is that they suffered casualties about half that of the Allies. After all, they had entrenched first, they had the heavy guns and mortars that the Allies did not, and they followed a cohesive withdrawal plan, unlike the disjointed Allied effort. The Allles turned in 330,000 dead in 1914, and their dead:wounded ratio was worse, too (i.e. fewer wounded survived). Again, this may well be a matter of obfuscation by later British propaganda.Marhault 05:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want to argue numbers then you should back up your argument with a reputable source. Atrian 16:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the German figures are from their own post-war government sources, published in 1935. The French ones came from a monograph published in 1931 at Yale, by Michel Huber. The British War Office published their stats in 1922.Marhault 03:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If the German figures are from 1935, don't you think they might be subject to propaganda as well? The Germans of that era were somewhat known for doing things like that. Atrian 13:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Not impossible, no. But the 1935 report came from the medical services, not the government political offices. It's well supported by actual field medical notes, something the Germans were very meticulous about. In any case, the Germans were always very hard-nosed and realistic in re military casualties, even well into WWII. It's the British, and to a lesser extent, the USA, that had historians that consistently ignored their governments' own data. Unfortunately for this approach, the UK brought other nations into the war with it, and figures from Canadian, and especially Australian, sources are available to correct the record. Marhault 16:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The 250,000 figure is very well established. Almost every single work I've come across on the subject gives that number. Whether that is correct or not is not for Wikipedia to decide; the only thing that matter is that it is the dominant view among the historical community, so that is the number that will be placed in the infobox.UberCryxic 01:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

'Von Kluck, happily met the French women on his right leg...' ???
I'm not sure what this line is supposed to mean: "Von Kluck, happily met the French women on his right leg, opened up a 50 bottles of wiskey and made a wide gap in the German lines between his First Army and the German Second Army,"

It appears in the first line of the "Battle" section of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.6.247.146 (talk • contribs) 16:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That was vandalism, and it was fixed yesterday. You may be looking at an older version of the page. - Eron Talk 00:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Why was Info about General Gallieni removed?
I added in this section, "By September 3, Joffre recognized the German armies' tactical error..." that it was (according to Barbara Tuchman in The Guns of August), General Gallieni who recognized the Von Kluk's error and forced Joffre to support his request to attack the German flank. This is the widely accepted version of the event and should have been left in.

--192.43.161.1 19:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Western front box
The Campaignbox Western Front (World War I) is lacking and this page is part of it. Can someone add it? 200.222.3.3 (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 16:29, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Map image incomplete.
The image does not clearly mark the French 6th Army, even if it is obvious from the text that they are the formation marked in blue facing the German 1st Army. AadaamS (talk) 11:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

New book published
See here for a review of The Marne, 1914: The opening of World War I and the battle that changed the world (2009, Holger H. Herwig), Random House; 391 pp. Looks like it would be a good source to add to this article. Carcharoth (talk) 00:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Casualty numbers
..."Over two million men fought in the First Battle of the Marne, of whom more than 500,000 were killed or wounded. French casualties totalled 250,000, 80,000 of them dead, while British casualties were 13,000, 1,700 of them dead. The Germans suffered 220,000 casualties." Since when does 250,000 + 13,000 + 220,000 = "more than 500,000" ? References ? Rcbutcher (talk) 06:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "The French incurred 250,000 losses, and it is believed that the Germans suffered similar casualties (no official figures are available). The British recorded 12,733 casualties among the BEF." firstworldwar.com
 * "During the battle, the French had around 250,000 casualties. Although the Germans never published the figures, it is believed that Geman losses were similar to those of France. The British Expeditionary Force lost 12,733 men during the battle." Spartacus
 * So the article broadly agrees with the above. We need to work on this. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 09:00, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just looked at the German and French articles and their figures are wildly different from our English one. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 09:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Celebrity Death (Peguy)
I made an edit that removed a one-sentence "anecdote" section about a celebrity death tied to the battle into the section on casualties. The celebrity's page also makes note of it. I was not able to find exactly what that death "one day before the start of battle" had to do with the battle. Was he a soldier scouting? Innocent civilian? Car crash two countries away? The user who made the edit claimed to be a French literature student, so I'll trust there's some significance there. --Joshrulzz (talk) 14:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Regulars
After experiencing the markmanship of the Boers during the earlier Boer War the British Army had made great strides in improving the quality of rifle fire. All ranks were encouraged to qualify as marksmen and enjoy the extra payment for this.

The Regular Army that marched off to France in 1914 consisted af large numbers of marksmen. There are many jokes about "fighting retreats" but on the retreat to the Marne the German army was to suffer a lot of casualties caused by accurate British rifle fire. The accuracy of British rifle fire caused such numbers of German casualties that it was to give rise to the German legend that "every British soldier carries a machine gun".


 * The Germans claim that they never heard of that legend.
 * The British Official History claim this was a German interpretation of events quoting a German monograph on the first battle of Ypres. However, it's based on a cherry-picked quote which in addition was inaccurately translated. See Jack Sheldon's book on the Ypres campaign. http://www.amazon.com/GERMAN-ARMY-AT-YPRES-1914/dp/1848841132/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320323156&sr=8-1

Was it at the Marne that the surviving British regulars, some 8,000 exhausted marksmen using accurate rifle fire, beat off the crack German regiment, the Prussian Guard consisting of some 12,000 fresh men and with heavy casualties?AT Kunene (talk) 10:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds more like the first battle of Ypres in which a composite force of surviving German guardsmen was decimated by the British.

Strengths are misleading
The German strength are very misleading. Here are the initial strengths of the four participating armies from three reputable sources:

Holger Herwig, The Marne 1914, ISBN 978-0-8129-7829-2 has two figures: 1st 320,000, 2nd 260,000, 3rd 180,000, 4th 180,000, (5th 200,000, 6th 220,000 and 7th 120,000) according to the US Military academy quoted in the illustration in p 38 and 39. The entire Western army is listed as 1.6 million on p 48.

Sewell Tyng, The campaign of the Marne, ISBN 978-1-59416-042-4 only has numbers of divisions totals(of which cavalry): 1st 15(3), 2nd 14(2), 3rd 8, 4th 10, 5th 13(2), 6th 17(3), and 7th 8 pp 355 and 356.

John Ellis & Michael Cox, The World War I Databook, ISBN 1 85410 766 6, 1914-08-18: 1st 15(3), 2nd 14(2), 3rd 8, 4th 10, 5th 12(2), 6th 13(3), 7th 6, p 171.

From those 2 German active corps and 1 Cavalry division were sent east to reinforce the 8th army and 4(?) reserve divisions were left behind to watch Antwerp. All of those infantry divisions were taken from armies 1-3.

At the battle Tyng says the Germans had 1st 13(3), 2nd 9.5(2), 3rd 6, 4th 8, 5th 14(2) [and the 6th 17(2), 7th 8], pp 380. Possibly 2 reserve divisions from 2nd army were watching Maubeuge.

Tyng and Herwig doesn't list the Landwehr brigades, while Ellis & Cox includes them. The former are IMHO correct since the Landwehr were mostly guarding LoC and/or besieging fortifications.

Tyng states allied divisions at the battle of Marne as 6th 12(3.5), BEF 7.5(2), 5th 16(3), 9th 9(1), 4th 10, 3rd 11.5(1), [2nd 10(1), and 1st 13(1.5)], pp 376-378. The vital allied left flank had 43.5(8.5) while the opposing German right flank had 25.5(5). The centres are given as allied 21.5(1) and 25(2). I specify the number of cavalry divisions because they had 50% or less the men and about 25% or less of the guns.

A problem is that none of these sources state manpower. However divisions were in theory more or less equally strong on both sides. It's more than probable that actual strenghts were more favourable for the French since they had been given replacements.

I suggest that strenghts are given as allied 43.5(8.5) and German 25.5(5), or simpler 35 vs 20.5, alternatively 65 allied vs 45.5.

Johan Arve — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.213.241 (talk) 07:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Additions
Added material for context and continuity.Keith-264 (talk) 19:07, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Infobox
Apologies for inadvertent reverting three times in fewer than 24 hours. The battle was not decisive, see Analysis section for cited material.Keith-264 (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no cited material in the Analysis section.
 * A decisive battle doesn't necessarily put an end to a war as a whole, a decisive battle can be a turning point in a war. The First Battle of the Marne was definitely a decisive battle in this sense, as it turned the tide of the early stages of WWI, transforming a war of movement into a war of trenches.
 * Sources:
 * History channel : "the French 6th Army under the command of General Michel-Joseph Manoury attacks the right flank of the German 1st Army, beginning the decisive First Battle of the Marne at the end of the first month of World War I."
 * War Planning 1914, Richard F. Hamilton,Holger H., p.76 : "strategically and operationally the Marne was a truly decisive battle in the Napoleonic sense" .... a long drawn out war of attrition, a stalemate of trench warfare in which opponents of similar strength faced each other indefinitely, had become reality. p. 77. Decisive?Keith-264 (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Blaue Max (talk) 22:44, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Quite right, It's all uncited, apologies.


 * Doughty Pyrrhic Victory 2005 "Despite the significance of the victory, the Battle of the Marne did not end the war." p.97


 * The German defeat at the Battle of the Marne marked the failure of German plans.... The new German command needed to come up with an alternative plan of operation to restart the stalled offensive. Foley 2005 pp.98-99


 * Gemany's hopes of a decisive victory between September and November 1914 came to rest on the right wing, But (sic) never did its army regain the initiative which it had enjoyed in August. Strachan 2001 p. 266.


 * By early September the Germans had reached the line of the Marne river stretching east of Paris. But they were worn down and overextended. When the Allies launched a counter-offensive ... the Germans fell back to the next river line to the north ... intending to regroup and recover briefly before resuming the advance. In fact the two sides never moved far from the Aisne line until 1918.... O'Neil 2014 p. 91.

Decisive?Keith-264 (talk) 23:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The Battle of the Marne did not end the war. But if it was "tactically indecisive", in the words of Hew Strachan, "strategically and operationally" it was a "truly decisive battle in the Napoleonic sense".... With the 20/20 vision of hindsight, the great tragedy of the Marne is that it was strategically indecisive. Herwig 2009, pp. 310, 319Keith-264 (talk) 06:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * While I agree that the concept of decisiveness is overly used almost everywhere, this certainly is one of the few places the word doesn't seems misplaced. Ruddah (talk) 12:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, decisive for whom? If the German failure on the Marne was decisive, was the French failure on the frontiers decisive too? The word has rhetorical connotations of "big" but is also a technical term for a military event from which everything else is aftermath. Clearly the writers who have ventured an opinion are what matters but it strikes me that the writers (and historians) who think that the Germans tried to win the western war quickly, tend to see the Marne as a decisive German failure but don't have much to say about an equivalent French success. There's another school which Strachan mentions (even as he calls the Marne "truly decisive battle in the Napoleonic sense") which notes that the Germans made some significant preparations before the war for ermattungsstrategie (war of exhaustion) of which Foley goes into great detail. "Clausewitz observed that Napoleon always sought an encounter with his enemy that would result in a decisive victory, that is, a battlefield victory that would produce political results. To achieve this decisive victory, Napoleon aimed to annihilate his opponent's army in a great battle". Foley p. 41Keith-264 (talk) 13:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3202_pp155-191_Lieber.pdf

"Yet, unlike Hitler, German leaders in 1914 did not appear to suffer from brazen overconfidence. They provoked war knowing it would almost certainly be protracted and bloody." p.191.Keith-264 (talk) 15:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keith, everyone agrees that the battle did not put an end to WWI. So, stop sourcing that fact, we all know that the war did not end in 1914...
 * You seem to think that decisive battles necessarily put an end a war. It's not true, a "decisive battle" is a battle that ends a campaign or that significantly changes the course of the war.
 * The Battle of the Marne put an end to the Schlieffen plan and changed the nature of the war itself, so it was definitely a decisive battle, as stated in and  Blaue Max (talk) 15:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Try to be civil and read this please: "Clausewitz observed that Napoleon always sought an encounter with his enemy that would result in a decisive victory, that is, a battlefield victory that would produce political results. To achieve this decisive victory, Napoleon aimed to annihilate his opponent's army in a great battle". Foley p. 41 Is this what Strachan was on about? Whose definition of decisive are you using? What do you mean by Schlieffen Plan? Was the fate of Plan XVII decisive? What do the writers who are most notable say??Keith-264 (talk) 16:31, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * My understanding of past policy on non-consensus on an item in info box is that that item is to be left blank and the various positions discussed in the body of the article.Tttom1 (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * From Template:Infobox military conflict "result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much."Tttom1 (talk) 01:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Re: recent reverts to info box and article: I see no discussion here that indicates we are all in consensus as to what result goes in the info box. If the result is 'Allied victory' I'm all in favor of that, if its something else like 'Allied success' I'm not. See comment above on info box result policy. If we can't come to consensus then leave it blank and take the various, hopefully reliably cited statements to the 'Analysis section' of this article as directed by Info box policy. I don't object to cited statements there in Analysis, where they belong, but to put it in the lede invites those editors with differing citable positions to put their historians opinions in the lede as well. If you see what I mean.Tttom1 (talk) 23:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

There is a consensus amongst several editors, myself, Keith & Uber that the result section of the info box should read: Allied victory. I'm changing that now. As an info box component it does not have to be cited as citations to this effect already exist in the analysis section of the article and the info box need only very briefly reflect what is in the body of the article.Tttom1 (talk) 06:16, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Suits me; thanks for digging out the ruling on the infobox verdict, I hadn't seen it before.Keith-264 (talk) 07:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hope this settles things and lets the article move forward and improve, it had 20,000 views on the 5th for the 100th anniversary compared to its usual 800 or so.Tttom1 (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No consensus here. This battle is one of the rare articles in Wikipedia where the term "decisive" is not usurped and well sourced. Blaue Max (talk) 15:02, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, we can go back to leaving the info box result parameter blank as per above WP policy: "It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much." as before and put sourced statements for each contention in the analysis section of the body of the article since there seems to be plenty of excellent sources supporting both views. As you can see there are already several sources there supporting a non-decisive result. WP:CONTttom1 (talk) 02:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Reaching a concensus is necessary when there is no sources or when the sources are contradictory. All sources provided state that this is a decisive victory. Blaue Max (talk) 07:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but you perhaps misread what is in the analysis section. "All sources provided" do not say its decisive, many say, and quotes are provided in that section, just the opposite. So there are sources and they are contradictory. However, consensus does not have to be unanimous: WP:CON - "Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." Several editors made a good faith effort and discussion on our talk pages and here to reach a consensus for 'Allied victory' and we have incorporated both the 'indecisive' and 'decisive' views in the analysis section as per policy and therefore included yours and other editors' 'legitimate concerns'. I believe that covers reaching a consensus. If you have additional reliable sources that indicate this is a 'decisive victory' please add them to the analysis section.Tttom1 (talk) 15:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

To those that are saying that the Marne wasn't decisive, which was the decision point of the WWI then? Cryfe (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It isn't what what we editors say, its what the reliable sources say, and there are reliable sources that say both decisive and indecisive.Tttom1 (talk) 16:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * What are the sources which say it was indecisive? Blaue Max (talk) 16:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * They are referenced & quoted in the Analysis section of the article.Tttom1 (talk) 16:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

There are two uses of decisive, a lay term as a synonym of big and the Clausewitzian technical meaning of war deciding. The battles on the Western front in 1916 were decisive because Verdun and the Somme were the beginning of the end of the German army. Beware of old school writing which alleges that the Germans lost the war in 1914 and thus "they are to blame for the 1915–1918 bloodbaths, so there". With hindsight the apogee of the German war effort came at the end of 1915 with the stabilisation of the Eastern Front and the reopening of the land route to the Ottoman Empire. Keith-264 (talk) 15:17, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

CE
Tidied citations which had red on themKeith-264 (talk) 11:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Aircraft
Ops, my mistake here. Cryfe (talk) 17:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * What mistake?Keith-264 (talk) 17:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"German reconnaissance aircraft were extremely significant during the Battle of Tannenberg, in which the Russian Second Army was encircled and destroyed." airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj99/fal99/echevar.html

Taxis of the Marne
I don't understand why the brief text on the role of the Paris taxicabs in transporting troops was taken out and turned into a footnote, and instead the event is described, without a description, as a "legend" and insignificant. While militarily it was only a small part of the battle, it had an enormous impact on morale, and, as is mentioned  later in the article,  it was the the first use of motorized infantry in war. Every school student in France learns about it, and the Museum of the Army in Paris has one of the taxicabs as a centerpiece of its exhibit on the battle. It may be a legend, but in this case the legend is quite true. If no one objects I would like to put back in the brief text and citation about the role of the taxicabs. SiefkinDR (talk) 11:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

German strengh ???
The German strength in this tabulary are very misleading. 27 German divisions How can it be ??? On 2 August the German strengh on western Force was 68 Divisions (1st, 2n, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Army) with 1,485,000 men (This can be right). VII. Korps, Garde-Reserve-Korps and IX. Reservekorps was on 5 September in Antwerp and Maubeuge. In first Battle of the Marne fight only german 1st, 2n, 3rd, and half 4th Army with togeter 32 Division Infantry and 8 Cavalry divisions. Together not more then 40 Divisions (direkt in fight only 27 Infantry division and 6 cavalry divisions)
 * strength2=1,485,000 (on 2 August)

One division have 18.000 Men (cavalry only 11000), so have on 6th September 1914 the german force on the marne only 780.000 men, it can not be more. I have not give the casaulties from Battles of Mons, Le cateau, and St. Quentin away ?? I have count the Divisions in the maps of Reichsarchiv Der Weltkrieg 1914-1915 volumme 4, too. Sorry by my horror english--Kleombrotos (talk) 07:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Entente is okay: 39 French divisions 6 British divisions
 * strength1=1,071,000

French and German strength are very underestimated : in his own memoirs, Joffre stated that the counteroffensive involved the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 9th French armies, counting 51 divisions on the 6th of september and 64 divisions on the 9th (due to shifts from the right to the left). Here it seems only the 5th, 6th and 9th army are counted. The same for the German : the first battle of the Marne involved the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th German armies and not only the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ones. The 3rd and 4th French armies launched attacks in order to contain the 4th and 5th German armies and avoid reinforcement to the German right wing. There is the same problem in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_of_the_First_Battle_of_the_Marne so I'll put there also the comment. 207.45.249.138 (talk) 09:48, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

how comes ferdinand foch is not mentioned?
here (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Foch)WP says " My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, situation excellent, I am attacking.

Message to Marshal Joseph Joffre during the First Battle of the Marne (8 September 1914), as quoted in Foch : Le Vainqueur de la Guerre (1919) by Raymond Recouly, Ch. 6"

which whether historical or just a personal memoire certainly suggests Foch's involvement with the battle (first) of marne. Therefore i am really disappointed that his name is not even mentioned in the article. Could this be perhaps mitigated by some of the editors knowledgeable enough to point out such an involvement? 89.134.199.32 (talk) 22:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC).

Infobox should also feature Franco-British soldiers
This battle was a major victory for the Franco-British as it saved France from ruin, and as such it should display their soldiers as well.

--193.92.90.33 (talk) 12:07, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

CE
Rectified some duplication and inconsistent chronology, restored paragraphs in the first section and some stylistic solecisms. Keith-264 (talk) 15:06, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

The "Schlieffen Plan"



 * Echevarria demonstrated beyond dispute that between 1870 and 1914, no German military theorist thought that wars against similar states, which had had an industrial revolution, would be quick or bloodless. Echevarria's comparison with French, Russian, British and US theorists shows that they didn't either. It's probably a good idea to lean less heavily on older sources like Tuchman and more on Echevarria, Foley and Strachan.Keith-264 (talk) 15:51, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Date Changes?
The Dates show the start on the 5th, but the citation says Sep 6. Who changed it and why? Xcerptshow (talk) 04:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

French death toll
The article now says that French deaths on the Marne came to approximately 31,000. Just over a year ago, it said 80,000 French deaths. French casualties, meanwhile, declined by 23,000. Somehow, though, the German figures haven't shifted at all: 67,000 dead from 250,000 casualties.

I'm not saying this is impossible; I haven't read enough sources about it. I do think the discussion of casualties, though, should better explain the discrepancy. Lots of numbers are thrown around, and yet I don't see an 80,000- or 81,000-deaths figure anywhere. If the French death toll has been cut by almost two-thirds due to recent scholarship, that debate should be presented clearly. This is doubly so given that many other Internet sources still quote the 81,000 figure. Maybe it is outdated, and maybe they were all webpages written from the old figure on Wikipedia, but it deserves more explanation (but a tidier one) than is given. Sacxpert (talk) 03:45, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree--and I've changed French deaths back to 80,000 which is the oft-cited estimate. I added a reference which gives 80,000 as the French dead. I think the lower estimate of 31,000 French deaths doesn't take into account the tens of thousands of French missing -- many of them blown to bits and their bodies unidentifiable.Smallchief (talk) 22:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

'On 6 September Haig's forces moved so slowly they finished the day 12 km behind...' Is that actually Haig?
In the western flank section the article claims: "On 6 September Haig's forces moved so slowly they finished the day 12 km behind..." and it references Herwig 253. Haig isn't mentioned anywhere else in the article and isn't linked. Presumably they meant the BEF as a whole still under the command of John French, but Haig apparently commanded a corpse of the BEF in the battle. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig#Mons_to_the_Marne)

I can't check the source myself, so could somebody else double check. 193.175.73.217 (talk) 13:32, 5 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I changed the text to replace "Haig" with "British force."
 * Smallchief (talk) 14:43, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you 193.175.73.219 (talk) 10:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Change of title
This article is about the c. 40 day campaign that culminated in the Battle of the Marne and the retreat of the Germans. A better title might be "The Marne Campaign, 1914" which would be a more inclusive and accurate description of what the article as now written is about. Any opinions on that? Smallchief (talk) 14:32, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned above, this article as now written is more of a description of the first two months of the war rather than a focus on the Marne battle. I think I'll work on editing this article to include more detail on the Marne battle and less detail on the background such as the long paragraphs on the Battle of the Frontiers (which is more broadly defined in this article than is usual by historians) and the subsequent battles. All those related battles have their own articles. The result should be a more tightly-focused Battle of the Marne article.Smallchief (talk)

Can someone give the Order of battle for the battle of marne?
Which needs to include the Order of battle of the french third and fourth army.And the german fourth and fifth army. Waylon1104 (talk) 11:36, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Order of battle of the First Battle of the Marne Smallchief (talk) 12:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Date doesn't seem to match
The infobox says the battle happened between "7–14 September 1914", but the text says it happened "from 5 to 12 September" SRAbian (talk) 11:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)