Talk:First Iraqi–Kurdish War

Rename

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No clear consensus to move to new title Mike Cline (talk) 18:19, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

First Kurdish Iraqi War → First Kurdish rebellion in Iraq – The Kurds were part of Iraq. The conflict was between a separatist faction led by Barzani's and the central government of Baghdad. Compare google results: This should also apply on the Second Kurdish Iraqi in Iraq as well. --  R a f y  talk 00:29, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Kurdish rebellion" iraq -LLC 11,700
 * "Kurdish+Iraqi+war" OR "Iraqi+Kurdish+war" -LLC 32
 * Oppose - the Kurds of Barazani created a de-facto autonomy in North Iraq through the 1960s, with state like structures and regular military. Indeed, i once saw it being related as "1961-1970 Barzani revolt", but the frequent term i have encountered is "Kurdish Iraqi War" and the conflict indeed complies with the basic definition of war (balanced conflict, where at least one party is a state; thousands of casualties). In addition, google results are not a proof for WP:COMMONNAME (most google results fail WP:RS or verifiability), i would like to see some academic sources, like this (p.39).Greyshark09 (talk) 08:07, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually they didn't have an autonomy until the 1990s. The war was more of hit and run clashes and Kurdish guerrillas were never able to control any large town. I have actually used google books for the test and afaik most of its resources are reliable and verifiable.--  R a f y  talk 10:59, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You are right regarding recognized Kurdish autonomy which exists today, but most don't realize, this autonomy has been planned since the 1960s, when Mustafa Barzani achieved understandings with the free officers, though later their misunderstandings faded and escalated into a war. The autonomy (which de'facto existed in north Iraq, by the late 1960s) has again been submitted to become recognized in 1968 and once again in 1974 accords, but its failure sparked the second Kurdish Iraqi War (here is a pretty good story of what was going on). Indeed, Edgar O'Ballance calls his book "the Kurdish revolt 1961-1970" , but the search you have shown displayed many results related to merely different conflicts - many to the 1974-5 war and the 1980s rebellion of Kurds during Iran-Iraq war. In conclusion, the 1961-1970 conflict held characteristics of both rebellion but more of a war and is described as such by WP:RS, and many sources call it specifically a war:
 * Kinanne, D. The Kurds and Kurdistan 1964. "The Present War in Iraq";
 * Gérard Chaliand. A People without a country: the Kurds and Kurdistan. "The War of (Kurdish) Liberation 1961-1974";
 * There are more of course, but it seems to me the "war" naming prevails, though exact namings vary (First Kurdish Iraqi War, War of Kurdish Liberation, etc.)Greyshark09 (talk) 17:19, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we can settle it by mentioning (bold within lead section) its other name is "1961-1970 Kurdish revolt"?Greyshark09 (talk) 17:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment - calling it "First Kurdish Rebellion" also creates confusion, related to previous rebellions in Iraq. Even if we omit the Mahmud Barzanji uprisings in 1919 and 1922, since those effectively happened within the British Mandate of Mesopotamia, but Ahmed Barzani revolted in 1931 and Mustafa Barzani himself led a revolt in Iraq during 1943-1945.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that most historians consider the series of Kurdish conflict spanning from the 1920s to 1990s simply "rebellions" or "revolts", save maybe the 1995 war. I can't find any reason why the 1960s' was a war while other not since they all share the same characteristics: Peshmergas attacking Iraqi units around towns and retreating to the mountains, Iraqis shelling the mountains and occasionally villages. I have no doubt that the term "war" have been used by some experts but I think that the vast majority call them rebellions.
 * Here are some book results. They call all conflicts which involved Barzani's as rebellions:
 * The rise and fall of the Communist Party of Iraq By Tareq Y. Ismael
 * Historical dictionary of Iraq By Edmund Ghareeb, Beth Dougherty
 * The Kurds of Iraq: Ethnonationalism and National Identity in Iraqi Kurdistan By Mahir A. Aziz
 * Iraqi Kurdistan: Political development and emergent democracy By Gareth R. Stansfield
 * --  R a f y  talk 21:45, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, the results you have brought are good sources, but they don't strengthen your point. If you try the same book by Tareq Ismael, you can see he is also calling it war . Anyway the point is we cannot call this event "First rebellion", since earlier Kurdish rebellions occured in Iraq in 1931 and 1943. Lets see if other editors have something to add on this.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on First Iraqi–Kurdish War. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131029191132/http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11142005-144616/unrestricted/003Manuscript.pdf to http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11142005-144616/unrestricted/003Manuscript.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 03:58, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Turkey
The source doesnt mention Turkey at all 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:D0C:349E:A133:332 (talk) 17:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)