Talk:First Minister of Wales

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BetacommandBot 02:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

List of First Ministers
The way this section is currently presented it looks as though Morgan formally resigned and was reappointed numerous times, including when he took on coalition partners midway into a term - did this happen this way? Timrollpickering (talk) 16:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Official Oath
What is the exact wording of the oath taken by Rhodri Morgan in May 2007? Did he say it in Welsh or English or both? Was he required to have an audience with the queen prior to taking the oath? Who did he make the oath before (presumably the Clerk of the Privy Council)? Thanks in advance. --Mais oui! (talk) 06:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't find much in terms of specifics, but the general principle is provided in the Government of Wales Act 2006. The wording used must be in the form "I, X, do swear that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty Queen Victoria in the office of Y So help me God." there is an equivalent affirmation that can be used instead, but I can't find its exact wording. Under section 55(4) of the 2006 Act the oath must be made to one of the "Presiding Judges for the Wales and Chester Circuit" or "another judge nominated by the Senior Presiding Judge for England and Wales."
 * He took his oath on 1 June 2007, a week after being elected First Minister. However, this BBC article implies that he was officially reappointed by the Queen a few days later on 5 June. Road Wizard (talk) 08:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * A Welsh form of the oath was introduced in July 2007 by the The Welsh Forms of Oaths and Affirmations (Government of Wales Act 2006) Order 2007. I cannot say whether the First Minister retook a revised form of the oath after 18 July 2007. Road Wizard (talk) 08:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Many thanks.--Mais oui! (talk) 12:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Possible move
I don't think this is a major issue, but should we move this to "of Wales" per this -- Snowded  TALK  08:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Absolutely, the title is "First Minister of Wales", not "for Wales" Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  12:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed, move it to First Minister of Wales. How it got to be FM for Wales, eludes me. GoodDay (talk) 14:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't bother getting up, I moved the artice to its proper name First Minister of Wales. GoodDay (talk) 14:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

It is not clear cut. In the vast majority of cases the Welsh Assembly Government call the position “First Minister of Wales”; eg: here; here; here; here; and here (where they also call Carwyn Jones AM “the First Minister of the Welsh Assembly Government”). However, they have also called the position the First Minister for Wales; here, for example. The Government of Wales Act 2006 almost always refer to the position as just “First Minister”. The only exception I found was here where previous acts of parliament have been amended, and they refer to “First Minister for Wales”. So, IMHO, the role is “First Minister”, however, in order to disambiguate it they usually call it “First Minister of Wales”, but sometimes “First Minister for Wales”. The page move seems premature. Daicaregos (talk) 15:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The opposition to my change from of to for (at Wales) by 2 editors, seemed quite clear cut. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It was reliably sourced, whereas the change you made was not. The question was highlighted here for discussion prior to a page move. I have presented RS evidence that several forms are in current or past use. There may well be others. If you have any evidence, please provide it. Daicaregos (talk) 15:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Which is the correct title? First Minister of Wales or First Minister for Wales? This article can't be at both titles. GoodDay (talk) 15:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, as I say, in my opinion the roles are "First Minister" and "Deputy First Minister". But the page name will still need to be disambiguated, even if my opinion turns out to be correct, and everyone agrees. Daicaregos (talk) 15:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a way: First Minister (Wales) & Deputy First Minister (Wales). GoodDay (talk) 16:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * We should not invent things. The reference I found is the WAG site and it says very explicity that "of" was adopted in the Act.  First Minister would make sense in any information box or otherwise where the context is clear.-- Snowded  TALK  21:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Rather than a case of inventing things, we have reliable sources that show the title as different names: "First Minister of Wales", sometimes "First Minister for Wales", "First Minister of the Welsh Assembly Government" and (the most examples) "First Minister". The question is how to name this page, as well as how to describe the job accurately in other articles. Daicaregos (talk) 21:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the normal GoodDay nonsense below. The balance of the sources is "of" and that one I reference at the start is very explicit.  I think the title is "of" and in general we we should follow use in the sources for each entry.  -- Snowded  TALK  22:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's use First Minister of Wales. GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * "Ya did it again" -- Snowded TALK  22:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That the 2006 Act uses "First Minister" is quite compelling. However, I am happy to use "First Minister of Wales" as the page title and, unless there are any objections, would also be happy to use "First Minister" (with a pipelink, where necessary) when naming the position in other articles, as suggested above. Daicaregos (talk) 22:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Pipe-linking on Welsh political articles 'only'? GoodDay (talk) 22:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The suggestion made above was "First Minister would make sense in any information box or otherwise where the context is clear." Daicaregos (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course, [First Minister of Wales|First Minister] in the Welsh infobox, is certainly acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It was a bit premature to change the Wales article you known, ideally one should wait a day or so to make sure we have a consensus. Might as well leave it now but like the page move it is best to get agreement first.  -- Snowded  TALK  07:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Daicaregos (talk) 07:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ya's wanna change it back? go ahead. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I have agreed that we may as well leave it at this page title now, despite it having been prematurely moved in a fit of childish petulance. Daicaregos (talk) 15:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Moved it back, since a child originally moved it without further discussion. A minor's actions are supposed to be scrutinized more on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 15:52, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Now your move back is against consensus. Please stop pissing about. This isn't a kid's game. Daicaregos (talk) 20:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * For God's sake GoodDay just think before you react and stop playing stupid games. If you had had too much to drink then confess now and we can all forgive you but I can't think of any other reason for this level of stupidity -- Snowded  TALK  21:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Wales should be included in the article title, as we've got First Minister of Scotland & First Minister of Northern Ireland. -- GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Totally irrelevant. We should rely on reliable sources rather than opinion. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  21:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Since when did GoodDay offer anything other than opinion? -- Snowded TALK  22:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't comment on the contributor. GoodDay (talk) 22:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Stop scattering random opinions without research or thought and we won't need to -- Snowded TALK  22:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ya did it again. GoodDay (talk) 22:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Introduction
Would it not be better for the opening paragraph to outline the role of the post? Questions of terminology could be addressed as a sub-section after the lede itself. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I'm not sure how important the terminology changes are to be honest, although the official web sites make a feature of pointing out the change -- Snowded TALK  11:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've changed it around a little, partly to update it. Better, or not?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Much better -- Snowded TALK  12:39, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Possible article change
Would it be alright to move this article to First Minister (Wales)? GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Morgan Ministries
Rhodri Morgan is listed as having formed four Ministries:

Lab-LD (2000-2003) Labour minority (2003-2007) Labour minority (2007) Labour-Plaid (2007-2009)

He actually headed a minority Labour ministry from 9th February 2000 (the day he became head of government) until 16 October 2000 (when the Lib Dems joined). This should be listed at the first Morgan Minisstry and the Lab-PC as the Fifth.

There was a significant reshuffle on 16 October Mike Gemran (LD), Jenny Randerson (LD) and Jane Davidson (Lab) joining the cabinet and Peter Law and Rosemary Butler (both Lab leaving) and a reshuffle and enlargement of junior ministers http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/975518.stm

Moved some content to List of first ministers of Wales
Moved relevant content to this page, in a similar manner to how the Uk prime minister pages are arranged. Titus Gold (talk) 23:55, 2 July 2022 (UTC)