Talk:Fitna (word)

Missing
HEY, y has the +ve meaning of this word been removed? This has become a biased article. Fitna means trial, test and can mean sign too as was shown by the camel sign from Quranic verses earlier.


 * Edip, you CANNOT use Wikipedia for proselytization. I have reported you as a vandal. Zora 00:01, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Khizar- Zora for the last time EDIP was Never involved in any of these editings. It was me Khizar. So if u have a prob consult me at 0049-511-4498174. 2ndly i must say tht once again uve shown bias as i said tht the word fitnah in arabic doesnt only have -ve meanings but +ve ones too n an example from Quranic verses was given. If u open the arabic dictionary ull find fitnah to mean TRIAL/OPPRESSION/DISTURBANCE as well.

Qiyamah
On the Qiyamah page I'm trying to inoporate as many relevant terms from List of Islamic terms in Arabic as possible and Fitna is listed as the trials and tribulations of Qiyamah. Could anyone provide more info and/or a reliable source for this? Thanks. freestylefrappe 04:37, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." Qur'an 8:40 "If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know Allah is your Supporter."

Another translation omits this Arabic term: [8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed. [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

-- Question: Where did you get the interpretation that Fitnah is towards non-Muslims? I believe from the information that you have provided us, shows that it is for people who don't believe in Allah. Christians and Jews both believe in "Allah". If you are going to write in English make sure you translate the word Allah to God. This confuses people and misinforms them leading them to think that Islam has a different God. From this information it shows really shows me that this is really towards pagans and athiests.

Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." Qur'an 8:40 "If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know Allah is your Supporter."

Another translation omits this Arabic term: [8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed. [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

-- Question: Where did you get the interpretation that Fitnah is towards non-Muslims? I believe from the information that you have provided us, shows that it is for people who don't believe in Allah. Christians and Jews both believe in "Allah". If you are going to write in English make sure you translate the word Allah to God. This confuses people and misinforms them leading them to think that Islam has a different God. From this information it shows really shows me that this is really towards pagans and athiests. Remember that eventhough Muslims and their leaders believed that Islam is a different and correct religion in the eyes of God, they held Jews and Christians with high respect calling them "people of the book". Most Muslim leaders never forced conversion to Islam directly. Rather they discouraged it in the beggining in fear of loosing their main tax revenue. Also remember Mohammed's intent was never to make a new religion. Yet it became one just like Christianism.

Actually Islam was meant to be a new religion, this was stated by God SWT and it was called Islam (submit/peace). The prophet Mohamad (Peace be upon him) set out to convey a message and teach humanity.

Fitna/Fitnah as a Pornographic Reference
Sorry to ask this touching religious question. However, doesn't "fitnah of the pen" refer to pornography? In particular, any ariculation of of this in relation to the way that women dress in Western societies (or, rather, DON'T dress in western societies) and any extracts in the Qu'ran that refer to the social instability and loss of good breeding practices that allowing women to walk around without any clothes results in?

My basic interest here is in Islamic notions of Eugenics.

Sorry about 'beating about the bush'. AxSingh 09:23, August 12, 2006 (UTC)


 * Fitnah of the pen apparently can refer to pornography... I haven't seen it from a 'reliable source' but it makes sense since it would just be art that 'causes problems' or is 'un-Islamic'... I had added a poorly written bit about women causing fitna (by dress, co-mingling) which was removed... it was valid and something I have seen in the shoddy populat literature... but, if I am to re-add it I will have to find some better sources. So, I think it can mean that... and it makes sense that it would.  Don't cause fitna being used as don't cause problems that help break apart societies... You lost me when it came to breeding practices.  Yes, I suppose if improper breeding leads to societal problems then there could be a connection with eugenics?  Although, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe there is a widespread belief in eugenics in the sense we normally talk about it.  There has been jurisprudence on when you may sleep with your wife and things like that but I am not sure I know what you're referring to. gren グレン 09:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Changing the title
I am in favour of changing the title of this article. There are two articles called Fitna at the moment, one is about an islamic concept and one is about a movie on islam. I think the movie on islam should be mentioned under the header 'fitna in popular culture' and the header of this article should be 'Fitna' instead of 'Fitna (word).Daanschr (talk) 18:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it is better to put the movie under the header 'See also'.Daanschr (talk) 19:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Expert
Hi, I flagged this article as in need of an expert because it only cites secondary sources and only details a few specific meanings of the word fitna. It's a good start, but is definitely in need of expansion and greater attention. The world has a long history in Islamic thought and, as the article mentions, is difficult to translate so it is especially in need of expansion from someone familiar with the wider context of the use of this word--especially someone who can authoritatively cite the sources on Islamic jurisprudence who deal with this word in the context of contemporary debates. For example, Edward Lane (cited here) is a respected predecessor in studies of the Middle East but he is not representative of contemporary or even recent work on the subject. Also, fitna is also used in relation to gender and the role of women, which is how I'm familiar with it. Will try to get to those sources and add them here ASAP, since that's my personal area of expertise. Thanks, guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.244.2.156 (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * We advocate the use of secondary sources; especially as opposed to our own interpretation of medieval Arabic texts. Lane's work on Egypt may be dated, but this is his dictionary, still a standard work of reference; the recent work on women in Islam has not consensus, where Lane may still have one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Wrong rename?
I think something went wrong, when i go to Fitna and click on discussion i move to the talk page about Fitna (word).
 * It has been fixed by now, thanks for that. 131.211.141.65 (talk) 12:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC) (same person as above commenter)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR (talk) 19:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I propose that this page be moved back to Fitna, at the moment that page is being used to promote a far-right film. Catchpole (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Google search "Fitna". And don't forget to take a NPOV. StaticGull Talk  10:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If any page is to be moved, I would suggest that the film page be moved to "Fitna". There is probably several thousands times more interest in that article than in this one, and Wikipedia standards say that in that situation the article most likely to be the one being looked for is the one that should have the simple page name.
 * I'd never heard of the word Fitna before the film made it world famous, and I'm sure that is true for 99.99% of all English-speaking people. --RenniePet (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "...that page is being used to promote a far-right film." If it were a far-left film or a centrist film would that make the current arrangement alright? —   AjaxSmack '  00:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No. Catchpole (talk) 18:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Support as obvious primary usage; the film is named for this concept, and the opposes are recentism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Disamb. policy states:
 * Ask yourself: When a reader enters a given term in the Wikipedia search box and pushes "Go", what article would they most likely be expecting to view as a result?
 * It seems to me that hardly anyone would be looking to find information about the actual word. StaticGull Talk  17:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I would; this is the first I've heard of the movie. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just guessing - you don't live in northern Europe?
 * Most anglophones don't; and Northern Europe will probably forget about this movie (but not the cartoons) in another 2 years. We are not timebound. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In Denmark, due to the 2-year-old Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, this film has been in the news off and on for about a month, and today it's frontpage news in all the media. --RenniePet (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's Wikinews' problem, not ours. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - consult any reliable source discussion about fitna and it will be about the word's usage in Islamic discourse. In a historical context, it refers to the early civil wars, which is also highly relevant to the meaning the word accrued. That is far more significant than a recently released film playing on the word.  ITAQALLAH   19:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Common sense. Zuiver jo (talk) 22:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose Please see the discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fitna_%28film%29#Requested_move That discussion was the result of a proposal that Fitna (film) be renamed and moved to Fitna. That proposal was defeated, but had significant support, which must imply that the idea of moving Fitna (word) to Fitna would be a very bad idea. The status quo situation, with Fitna being a disambig page must be a much better situation for all the thousands of people looking for information about the film, compared to the very few people who are looking for background information about the word. Note also, that there has been very little discussion of this proposal, presumably because it has not been noticed due to the counter-proposal. --RenniePet (talk) 22:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose. If it were just a choice of the word and the film, there is good argument for the word as primary meaning.  However, there are the encyclopedically important First Fitna and Second Fitna (also disambiguated at Fitna) that are likely the target of some queries as User:Itaqallah notes above.  The existence of four meanings without one of primary significance makes the current setup most appropriate. —   AjaxSmack   06:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The meaning of Fitnah in the Arabic language
Hi Thank you for the feedback.. You need to understand the Arabic language as we use it in our daily life to understand its meaning. You do not get the meaning from a dictionary and impose it on the people. Speaking the language itself and understanding its deep meaning is vital to translate the Arabic language. You need to get the meaning of the word Fitnah before the Quran used it. If the Quran used the word Fitnah 50 times and you said it is very difficult to translate and understand it then the people at that time would ask the same question to the prophet " What do you mean by Fitnah?", surprisingly no body asked. The word "trial" in its basic meaning assume that someone is accused with something and you have a trial to prove he/she is guilty or not. Fitnah does not mean that At all. It mean test and it it is not a bad word to use.

I would appreciate it if you check the meaning of the word before the Quran used it and how is the Arab used it in their daily life.

Thank you --Smkk2008 (talk) 05:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, so far you've been removing nuanced text that references scholarly sources, and replacing it with your own, categorical opinions about the meaning of the word, without citing anything. Please take a look at our verifiability policy, and the article about citing sources. And you should never remove text that already cites reliable sources, unless it's either clearly irrelevant to the article, or you can cite much more authoritative sources directly contradicting the text you removed.
 * If you comply with these policies, your contributions to Wikipedia will be appreciated; otherwise, they will most likely be quickly reverted. Hqb (talk) 08:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

hi guys. i speak arabic and english very well. arabic is my native, Eglish is my primary, french is my secondary :D

well. Fitna or Fitnah(n)(this is the right pronounciation) is in arabic the infinitive of Fatana(v) which means (change and made up the thing to make it look pretty to make someone loves it).

in jewelry: like if someone got a useless piece of jewelry, added to it cheap stones, but made it (look amazing) and sold it for more than what it deserves, then he fatana the customer. the piece looks precious and u can be proud of wearing it more than other more expensive similar piece, but in fact it's a fitna, or something makes u love it but the deep value of it isn't real.

Fitna is working in politics when someone cheats someone else with beautiful words to make him achieve something harmful for him.

the very beautiful women whom are attracting men to do a certain something with invincible attraction are Fitna

well. all the women are attractive, so all the women if a man isn't in a realtionship and satisfied are FITNA. this is my personal idea about the women. the man usually waste alot of time in thinking and caring about women. i hope i'm not, but i am. LOL. the women are the Fitna which i can't avoid then.

we are considered to not allow the Fitna to affect us. we say sometimes to pray "god please Don't make it Fitnah to us" or as mskk2008 said "May Allah does not make it (the hardship) Fitnah for us", when we feel we're weak to resist a certain attractive thing could be harmful but loved (and this is the source of the test in the word Fitnah) so the test isn't in the fitna, but to not behave according to the fitna, and the fitna is usually very strong to get avoided)

i'm speaking arabic from 23 years and english from 13 years. i think this is the best. arabic is simple to me. i tried to get the source from the Academy of the arabic languge in cairo but the site is in arabic only. this is it's link http://www.arabicacademy.org.eg/. if any valunteer sent them my translation and asked them to verify it to wikipedia i will be appreciated. the e mail is in the site, if anyone couldn't get it please mention it here and i will give it to who asks or publish it here if wikipedia allows --Maam2222 (talk) 20:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The meaning of "Fitnah" in Arabic by Arabic users
When you translate a word from Arabic to English you have to use the original meaning of the Arabic word in the Arabic language that reflects how they used the word at that time by the Arabic people and do not use Arabic-English dictionary to understand the meaning using the contemporary English language.

If I need to understand the original of an English word I use English-English dictionary not English-Arabic. The Arabic language is a very rich language and if you do not speak and understand the original language and use the original Arabic sources you will not get the correct meaning at all.

The source of this information is any well known Arabic-Arabic dictionary that specialized in explaining the original meaning of the Arabic words and list their various uses in the Arabic language and how the usage of the word has been developed from time to time. 1- “Fitnah” is a classic Arabic word means "test" and it does not mean "trial" as most of the non Arabic speakers may use. The word is used in Arabic as a Verb or Noun or Adverb. 2- The Arab used the word to describe the process of testing the purity of the Gold or any other valuable metals. They say "Fatana Al-Zahab" or "Fatana Alhadeed", which means the test of the Gold and Iron purity by using the fire. 3- The word "Fitnah" is not a bad word. The Arab is using it in their daily life to describe the hardship they have. When Muslim make Duaa they say “ May Allah does not make it (the hardship) Fitnah for us”. 4- The word Fitnah existed in the Arabic language before the revelation of the Quran and not a new complex word as your article is claiming. 5- The Quran used the word Fitnah 50 times in a very clear way. The source of this information is any Arabic books that cover the meaning of the Quran in Arabic language. The one I’m using is called “Tafseer Wa Bayan Mufradat Al-Quran”, with full Index by word. 6- If the word “Fitnah” is a new word the Muslim would ask the Prophet about the meaning of this word. No one asked the Prophet. 7- The Quran Book said " Your money and Sons is Fitnah". That means your money and sons are tests in your life that you may pass or fail. For example if you steal to support your children extra daily requirements and needs then this is Fitnah and you failed. Also the money is Fitnah if you fail to spend it correctly and help the poor people and use it properly to enjoy your life in a modest way to the benefits of your family, community and country. 8- Any small or big incident in our life can be called Fitnah. 9- The modern Arabic words for Fitnah are "Ikhtebar" and "Imtehan". 10- A simple prove to my notes is that the word “Fitna” should be written as “Fitnah” with “h” to match the Arabic word [ فـتـنـة ] in writing and speaking. Finally, to accused someone by vandalism without a prove is a poor reflect to the integrity of the original source of the information that cannot raise the discussion to a respected level. Most of the articles writers about Islam and the Quran in Wikipedia do not speak, write or understand the Arabic language and they use Arabic-English dictionaries, not to mention some of the sources are anti Islam and Muslims. They do not understand the deep meanings of Arabic language as we use it from 1700 years and they are copying from none Arabic and anti Islam sources to explain the Arabic language. This is a major issue and Wikipedia needs to address it seriously. I wonder if we use a French or German dictionary to explain the same Arabic word we used from over 1700 years in the Arabic language what we will get. --Smkk2008 (talk) 04:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smkk2008 (talk • contribs) 14:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * As an aside. While the "original meaning of the Arabic word in the Arabic language" is important, it is also important how English speakers use the word in English.  If the article was limited to merely translating a word from Arabic to English, it would belong in Wiktionary and not at Wikipedia. —   AjaxSmack   02:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Lane's Arabic-English dictionary is based entirely on the Arabic-Arabic dictionaries written by the greatest Arab scholars of their own language. There's a good article on it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic-English_Lexicon. For virtually every bit of information, Lane tells you his exact sources in the Arabic dictionaries, especially the Taj al-Arus but also many other, earlier ones. Lane knew Arabic thoroughly, lived in Cairo for many years, and did much of the work on the dictionary there. Of course he didn't know how the word would be used in the 20th and 21st centuries. It would be interesting to know whether the word as used nowadays by Arabs has the same meaning that it had in classical Arabic. It would require three steps to find out: collect examples of modern sentences containing the word; collect examples of classical and Quranic sentences using the word and also how the tafsirs and Arabic-Arabic dictionaries explain it; compare the two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.215.227 (talk) 03:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Importance
Is this really necessary to have this word in the wikipedia? I do not see how this word has any significance. Norum 00:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Also a good question from a decade ago. Fitna is a less a word of religious significance than a simple common noun. More the stuff of Arabic Wiktionary really. Iskandar323 (talk) 01:25, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Complete Rewrite
I have completely rewritten the article, including expanding it rather substantially. I wasn't sure if I should just post something here first before making wholesale changes, or just post my changes and see what happens. I'm new, so the etiquette eludes me. I opted for just posting my rewritten version. I'd be happy to hear what others think. Dmvjjvmd (talk) 02:52, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

About "semitic" language...
Arabs aren't descendants of Ismael. Jews convinced them they were in order to chase Christians outside Jerusalem. They can't be considered Semitic. There has been some Jews forced to convert to islam at some moments, some other tribes stood Jew and moved, some tribes became Christian. Many were enslaved by the muslim slave market. While Jews wanted to use Arabs to fight Christians, they has been betrayed when Muhamad decided to establish his violent dominion over Arabs and attack both Jews and Christians. This must be clear; Arabs aren't Semitic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.91.229.108 (talk) 07:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

fitna in the phrase "university will definitely be a place of fitna"
this makes "place of fitna" sound like it might be a common phrase, used as a warning. What does this mean? 142.163.194.232 (talk) 23:34, 5 July 2022 (UTC)


 * My my. Well done for pointing out what a broken page this is. The most basic and common meaning of fitna is simply unrest, though this page has other ideas. Iskandar323 (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)