Talk:Flag of Greater Manchester

Spam (or not, as the case may be)
WP:SPAM is quite clear what spam is: "There are three main types of spam on Wikipedia. These are: advertisements masquerading as articles; external link spamming; and adding references with the aim of promoting the author or the work being referenced." It is also clear that it "should not be confused with legitimate good-faith additions intended to verify article content and help build the encyclopedia."

The citation to Flying Colours Flagmakers is there as source verifying usage of the flag in question to represent the county of Greater Manchester. It was not included to promote Flying Colours Flagmakers - I know this because it was added by me. Feel free to examine my extensive editing history if you feel that I am some sort of representative or promoter of the organisation in question.

I chose that particular page to reference because that company holds two Royal Warrants as the official flagmakers to both The Queen and the Prince of Wales. As such they can reasonably be considered to have some knowledge of the subject and the inclusion of a flag on their website is particularly noteworthy.

Obviously as per WP:NPOV if you have other sources expressing contrary opinions then these should also be reflected in the article in proportion to their reliability and number, but please don't just delete this one.

JimmyGuano (talk) 06:46, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The reasoning of if or not to include the image in infoboxes is quite simple it should not be used. The image design, which has been altered by at least four other editors since it was first uploaded, was created by Jza84 who is a well known editor with extensive editing ability. The flag has no official status, it is not recognised by the Greater Manchester authority, or the school of Heraldry, if it were it would be flown over the Manchester Town Hall. Perhaps you missed the third line of the description of the flag placed by Jazz when he uploaded it to Wikipedia, which was then ported to Wikicommons by Orionist IE:- NB: This is an unofficial flag and should not be used in a manner implying it has any official use, such as article info boxes For you to make an edit summary comment that my removal of the image is bordering on vandalism is quite offensive, especially when I referred to that description statement, in my edit summary, when I removed the image.  With regard to the removal of the cited links for the Flying Colours flag makers:- They are not a reliable reference, the company will make and sell any design of flag, including personal designs, if you order enough to make them a profit. If you look closer at the GM flag image they show on their sales page you will see that it has been downloaded from Wikipedia. It is the fourth edit of the design done by Wylve on Wiki commons. I have seen bunting with Jazz's original design flown in Dukinfield, but not officially. With regard to other references:- I note that the first reference, on line one, of the article does not support the statement "The Flag of Greater Manchester is the flag of the metropolitan county", it is just a link to a map page of the Unitary Authorities in 2009, bearing no comment on flags. Also note that 'England' does not need to be Wikilinked, as per WP:OVERLINK. Unfortunately the flag image has been used in several other wiki articles and categories, including those in other countries, where they have assumed the flag is the official one, which Wikipedia should not be implying. I have attended official functions in Italy and France were the local authorities have been acutely embarrassed to discover they have flown incorrect flags, gleaned from articles on Wikipedia. As for your comment above referring to your  "extensive editing history!" I fail to see the relevance of it. Richard Harvey (talk) 12:36, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Well I'm sorry if I've offended you - that was not my intention. At the same time you were the one throwing accusations of spam around, which is hardly assuming good faith either. Anyway, to go through your many points:
 * I don't see what relevance the actions of User:Jza84 or indeed you on Wikipedia has to the reliability of the cited organisation's webpage as a source. The Queen's flag maker is a citable source, a Wikipedia editor isn't.
 * Most images of flags and coats of arms on wikipedia are created by wikipedia editors, in many cases anything else would be a copyright violation. I made the image on the Flag of Birmingham page, for example. Who made the actual image has no bearing on its status as a flag, which can only be determined by its use (or not) by sources other than Wikipedia.
 * The status and origin of the design (as distinct from the image) of this flag is very clear - it is the banner of arms of Greater Manchester County Council and as such was created and registered by the College of Arms in 1974. It can be seen in this photo as part of the arms inscribed on the window of the Museum of Science and Industry, presumably some time before 1986, and its description is on page ii of Frangopulo's book Tradition in action : the historical evolution of the Greater Manchester County, published in 1977. Its status as representing the council is clear, longstanding and entirely official. The only question mark is whether it is used to represent the county. All such usage for all counties is unofficial as it is strictly speaking against the laws of heraldry, in the same way that quite a lot of the flags listed for example on the Flag Institutes County Flag page  are, but it is also very common - see for example page 62 of Graham Bartram's book British Flags and Emblems where this is explained. The question is whether it is used de facto, and it being listed as the flag of the county on the website of the Queen's flag maker (among other places) indicates quite strongly that it is. You even say yourself that you have seen this flag in use. Its status is thus very similar to the Flag of Cumberland. Even the Flag of England has no actual legal status - it is just widely used.
 * That the holder of the Queen's flag-making warrant will make a flag clearly indicates nothing about its status exactly as you say - they'll make whatever you pay them to make. That a company so respected in the field will list it on their website as the Flag of Greater Manchester, however, does.
 * Manchester Town Hall is the headquarters of Manchester City Council, which covers the city of Manchester. This is different to the county of Greater Manchester and covers an entirely different area. That this flag doesn't fly from Manchester Town Hall therefore indicates nothing whatsoever - it is not their flag.
 * The first reference is only there to establish Greater Manchester's status as a county. Another editor also engaged in an absurd edit-war on this page, this time claiming that Greater Manchester was in fact a region, not a county. You can see this in the edit history if you want to check.
 * JimmyGuano (talk) 10:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

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