Talk:Flag of Manitoba/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Reidgreg (talk · contribs) 16:47, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Review to be forthcoming. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Full review follows. If you have difficulty distinguishing check marks ✔️ or other icons, please let me know and I'll reformat.  I'm open to discussion on any of the points raised. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Criterion

 * GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * Very close to a quick pass; a few minor things to be addressed. ✔️
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * Very close to a quick pass; a few minor things to be addressed. ✔️
 * Very close to a quick pass; a few minor things to be addressed. ✔️

Review comments

 * Prose
 * the flag of the neighbouring province of Ontario, which is also a Red Ensign. Perhaps add after Ensign: with a coat of arms. (or similar)
 * Done. Added "… with its respective coat of arms."✔️


 * The Great Canadian Flag Debate that preceded this change showed there were still parts of Canada where imperialist nostalgia was strong, and lamenting the demise of the Canadian Red Ensign, they endeavoured to have it modified as a provincial flag. The underlined part feels a bit awkward to me.  How about:  The Great Canadian Flag Debate that preceded this change showed there were still parts of Canada where imperialist nostalgia was strong, where the demise of the Canadian Red Ensign was lamented and there was a push to have it modified as a provincial flag.
 * I've actually split it into 2 sentences (since the original is at 40 words, far above the 30 word max. I try to adhere to). I've reworded it to, "The Great Canadian Flag Debate that preceded this change showed there were still parts of Canada where imperialist nostalgia was strong. Lamenting the demise of the Canadian Red Ensign, its proponents in those regions endeavoured to have it modified as a provincial flag."  Hope that works fine. —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Perfect!✔️
 * One of the two flag-raisers at that ceremony was a descendant of Thomas Button, the British explorer who raised the first British flag over what is now Manitoba back in 1612. I feel like "now ... back in 1612" is a bit awkward.  How about:  the British explorer who in 1612 raised the first British flag over what is now Manitoba.
 * Agreed – changed to the wording you suggested (thanks for that!). —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2020 (UTC)✔️


 * Moreover, the flags situated at the province's Legislative Building are lowered to half-mast when a soldier – who was born in or grew up in Manitoba, or was last stationed in the province before being deployed abroad – is killed. I suspect you were trying to change the structure to avoid close paraphrasing, but the dashes make it more complicated than it has to be and I find "grew up" to be too informal. There are only so many ways to state some things, and "born or raised" is natural language.  How about:  Moreover, the flags situated at the province's Legislative Building are lowered to half-mast upon the death of a soldier who was born or raised in Manitoba, or who was stationed in the province before being deployed abroad.
 * Your suspicions are correct re avoiding close paraphrasing. Changed to your suggested wording (but retained the "last" in "… was last stationed in …").  Hope that's fine with you. —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks good. For the "last", I went back and forth on that a little. I wasn't sure if "prior to" in the source meant they were stationed in the province immediately prior to being deployed or that they were stationed in the province at any point prior to being deployed. When in doubt, I tend to generalize.  I'm fine with your wording, and agree that it's the most likely meaning in context.✔️


 * Referencing & verifiability
 * "Manitoba kicks off year-long celebration of its 150th anniversary" Billeck, Scott
 * Verified, but the source is the Winnipeg Sun, not the Winnipeg Free Press. I changed the citation for this.  The Sun chain have been described as tabloids, but I don't see any problem with it in this context where it's used for simple date verification and is backed up by a primary source.✔️
 * Thanks for spotting that – I copied and pasted from a "cite news" template I had used earlier but forgot to change the "newspaper=" parameter. —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * About Us – Old Manitoba150
 * Verified. The picture of the host committee is dated November 2019 if you wanted to add an approximate date.✔️
 * Encyclopedia Britannica
 * Verified four citations directly and two with support from CIC (below). I feel that the last cited statement (The Red Ensign is a conspicuous symbol of Great Britain, Canada's former mother country.) is generally verifiable so I'm not concerned about the citation.✔️
 * CIC Citizenship and Immigration Canada
 * Verified five citations✔️
 * MBgov Emblems of Manitoba✔️
 * History of the National Flag Canada.ca✔️
 * Canada's flag debate flaps on, 50 years later CBC News✔️
 * Flag of Canada at Enc Britannica✔️
 * Our provincial flag, the lesser-known story✔️
 * Also found this on ProQuest carried by The Times-Transcript (Moncton, NB).
 * Thomas Manitoba Politics and Government two citations✔️
 * Grebstad "The Flag of Our Fathers? The Manitoba Provincial Flag and British Cultural Hegemony in Manitoba, 1870–1966"
 * Found this online at pdcnet.org here: https://www.pdcnet.org/85257D7A006284F7/file/74B4586CD1B2FBA0C125809F006FC192/$FILE/raven_2016_0023_0000_0063_0087.pdf which I added to the citation template.
 * Verified three citations.✔️
 * Canada's first (more or less) official flag Radio Canada✔️
 * NAVA✔️
 * "Lambert WFP" "Manitoba flag called outdated"
 * four citations
 * A motion calling for a change to the flag was put forward at the provincial New Democratic Party's annual convention in March 2009. However, it did not pass because it failed to make the deadline to get voted on. The first source, dated Feb 2009, says it was on the agenda. The second (CBC News) says that "a resolution aimed at changing the provincial flag failed to beat the buzzer." There seems to be a bit of ambiguity between those statements.  Was it on the agenda but they ran out of time before the motion was put forward for debate, or was it put forward but they didn't have time for the vote, or something else?  Without another source for clarification, I feel like it should be stated in more general terms. Suggest something like:  A motion calling for a change to the flag was scheduled for debate at the provincial New Democratic Party's annual convention in March 2009.  However, procedures were not completed due to time constraints.
 * I personally found no ambiguity whatsoever when reading those statements. My take on it is that the resolution "failed to beat the buzzer" because it "failed to make the deadline to get voted on" (i.e. the vote regarding the motion/resolution never took place).  And that putting forward a motion was the same as it being on the agenda. —Bloom6132 (talk) 01:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, okay, it's clear in what it says, but it lacks the specificity of the statement in the article. Time ran out, but it doesn't say how far the resolution had moved along in parliamentary procedure before time ran out. Essentially a resolution has to be introduced, seconded, recognized by the chair, debated, and put to a vote by the chair (at which point the vote itself takes place). It feels a little odd to me for it to have gone through all the processes except the vote itself. If it had, wouldn't they instead make a motion to postpone it until a later time?  I tried searching around a bit but couldn't find the minutes of the convention, and the news tends not to report things which didn't happen. Thoughts? – Reidgreg (talk) 12:47, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending. My hunch as to why it it didn't get postponed until later is because the next time the NDP met was 7 months later at their leadership convention.  Which would push their next convention (focused more on policy) further back.  And sure, same party but new leadership.  And changing a flag (which seems to come with lots of liability in terms of stirring up emotions and little benefit in terms of substantive action to help people) would probably rank towards the lower end of policies a new leader would want to propose. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:15, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No problem; I wasn't clear enough in the first place. Looking at the source again, I probably focused on that one sentence with buzzer (quoted above).  The previous paragraph in the source says (in the context of taking "new" out of NDP) that the resolution may not pass or even come to a vote, that "Each year, only a small number of resolutions make it to the convention floor before time runs out." It then immediately mentions the 2009 flag resolution, presumably as an illustrative example of a resolution which never made it to the convention floor, i.e. which wasn't introduced or debated.  Does that make sense?  Whether or not this is the case, though, I don't feel that the sources support (1) the statement that the motion was put forward, or (2) the causal relationship that it did not pass because it failed to make the voting deadline.  So I feel that we either need to find sources to support this, or to change the wording to reflect the sources that we do have. – Reidgreg (talk) 14:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've clarified the sentence by stating that the motion was "put forward on the program " (as opposed to put forward to a vote, only to be defeated). I'm avoiding the term "on the agenda" due to close paraphrasing.  I also re-arranged the sentence following it and dropped the "it did not pass".  It now reads, "However, it failed to make the deadline to get voted on and consequently did not proceed further."  I think that's a more accurate way of looking at the motion in the grand scheme of things, because simply being voted on and passed at a party convention wouldn't be the end of the road for changing the flag (i.e. it would need to be introduced at the Legislature and passed there). —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:34, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅. Great, thanks! – Reidgreg (talk) 15:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Good Flag Bad Flag" NAVA 15-page pamphlet
 * The inclusion of the Union Jack in the canton was viewed disapprovingly by the Association. I feel it'd be closer to the source to say:  The Association felt the flag lacked distinctiveness, which could have been achieved had the bison been used as a central figure.  (maybe wikilink canton elsewhere)  Alternatively, the CTV News source mentions the same thing but also has "Kaye suggested dropping the Union Jack" which is closer to supporting the statement, if you want to add that as an additional citation.
 * I've incorporated some of your wording into the rephrased sentence. Hope that works.  In addition to reusing the CTV News source, I've also resued the NAVA source, which wrote that "All British colonial flags (e.g. Ontario) should go.". —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)✔️


 * Flag-lovers via Newsbank
 * Found this at ProQuest ( subscription required) It is essentially RSS coverage of the 10 June NAVA press release, with a bit of interviewing. If you want, here are citation details:  cite news|work=The Record|location=Kitchener, Ontario|publisher=Metroland Media Group|title=Flag-lovers flower Quebec's fleur-de-lis with a rosy ranking|agency=The Canadian Press|author=|date=June 20, 2001|access-date=May 12, 2020|id=|url-access=subscription|quote=At No. 44, it was the lowest-rated Canadian flag, according to the association, receiving a paltry 4.60
 * Added – thanks for that! I don't have access to ProQuest anymore. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)✔️


 * grassroots CBC News✔️
 * CBC150redo CBC News✔️
 * New out of NDP CBC News✔️
 * PCs win majority CBC News✔️
 * Jubilant Pallister CBC News✔️
 * Push to redesign CTV News✔️
 * PFA Provincial Flag Act
 * verified four citations including quotation.✔️
 * Manitoba's provincial symbols Dept of Heritage✔️
 * Province of Manitoba Canadian Heraldic Authority✔️
 * Malta✔️
 * red Pantone.com
 * Wasn't visible on my browser, but verified from page source and archived version✔️
 * Emblems Canadian Encyclopedia✔️
 * flags of HBC
 * Wasn't able to verify from that webpage, but there is a pdf on their website at http://www.hbcheritage.ca/teacher-resources/TG-HBC-Flag-ENG.pdf ✔️
 * "Flag of Bermuda" at Britannica
 * Manitoba's flag is also analogous to the flag of Bermuda. This source doesn't specifically make this comparison. Suggest adding:  cite news|title=The ensign and the bison|work=The Globe and Mail|location=Toronto, Ontario|date=March 2, 2009|access-date=May 17, 2020|url=https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-ensign-and-the-bison/article1149588/ |quote="The New Democrats in the Riel constituency of Winnipeg complain that Manitoba's flag is too similar to Ontario's flag, also a red ensign. In fact, it's similar to Bermuda's as well."
 * Added that source. Thanks for finding it! —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2020 (UTC)✅


 * protocol office✔️
 * Position of honour gc.ca✔️
 * Manitoba Day gov.mb✔️
 * Manitoba Day celebrated✔️
 * DYK gc.ca
 * Has the important parts; the rest is generally verifiable.✔️
 * FAQ – Protocol mb.ca✔️

Four images: two tagged public domain and two creative commons licensed.✔️
 * Media

Other areas to improve
Although not part of the GA criteria, here are some other areas you might want to improve:
 * I went back-and-forth on this a couple times. Because only one of the many sources mentioned this, I've concluded that it isn't required coverage by the GA criteria.  Nonetheless, it might be nice to include this in a future expansion at some point.  This is from ref Grebstad p. 71, which mentions some earlier interest in a provincial flag, preceding Pearson's national flag debate.  According to the source they were looking at an altogether different design(s). Then, after the national flag was chosen, the earlier proposals were abandoned and the modified Red Ensign was quickly adopted. I think this is interesting and it makes an even stronger case for the reactionary decision.

General discussion
This was quite close to a quick pass. Just a few touch-ups. If you want to do the optional expansion mentioned above, I don't mind waiting a few days. Please let me know if you have any questions or if want to discuss any of this. I'm putting the review on hold for now; let me know when you're ready for me to check your changes. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks very much for the review! I hope I've addressed your remaining comments satisfactorily. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've checked your changes, they look good. I think we're just hung up on that bit about the NDP convention. I am admittedly nit-picky in my role as a reviewer and hope that's alright with you. I have found the article to be well sourced and well written, and it's been interesting and enjoyable to be working on it with you. – Reidgreg (talk) 14:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Completely fine with me as long as we're both adhering to the GA criteria. Yes, it has indeed been enjoyable working together you!  I look forward to doing so again in the near future re the Richard Gagnon GAN (no rush, btw). —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:19, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Great, passed! I hadn't realized Gagnon was also yours.  I've been trying to give priority to WikiProject Canada GANs, so was bound to bump into the same editor(s) at some point.  Cheers! – Reidgreg (talk) 15:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)