Talk:Flag of Ontario

"Defaced" better than "Altered"
"Defaced" better than "Altered"

I object to the revision of May 31. "Defaced" is the proper term used in vexillology (the study of flags) for this situation. "Altered" makes it sound like the flag was castrated, since it is a euphomism for "fixing" an animal. Jonathan David Makepeace

The Ontario Flag was around since 1868 AD
Ontario Coat-of-Arms Granted 1868 AD

http://www3.sympatico.ca/goweezer/canada/coaONT.htm

The Coat-of-Arms of the Province of Ontario was granted in 1868 AD. The Red Ensign of Ontario has been in existance since 1868 AD.

Please correct your page accordingly AndyL.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 03:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Just because the Coat of Arms was created in 1868 doesn't mean the use of a red ensign flag with the Ontario COA was used then. --Saforrest 20:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Ontario had no official flag until the legislative assembly passed the Flag Act in 1965.AndyL 07:59, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Makepeace link
this link has been the subject of a low intensity edit war for some time now. I'd be more inclined to keep it if the website were more interesting, as it is I can take it or leave it. But why are some individuals so intent on removing it? I'd like to know your reasons?AndyL 17:23, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * The site seems to be more a political statement for a new flag than any information on the flag we do have, and is not NPOV. Spinboy 17:36, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's the article that needs to be NPOV, not the external links (though the description of those links must be NPOV). If we banned links to POV sites we'd probably have to get rid of most of the external links we have on wikipedia (at least those no political and controversial topics). What matters is not whether the linki is POV but whether it is relevant and it seems to be. AndyL 17:50, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I am loath to agree with AVD, but the link should go unless some evidence, such as media coverage, is presented to show that this is an important proposal. - SimonP 18:00, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

There's not. It's just one guy's site. If it goes it should go for that reason, not because of its POV. AndyL 18:08, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But wikipedia isn't the place to link to every guy's site. Spinboy 21:19, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed the link a few hours ago. My point is simply that your reasons for wanting it removed were incorrect and that it was necessary to have a better reason for removing the link. It would be a mistake for us to go around wikipedia and start removing external links because the sites linked to were POV. AndyL 21:36, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

-I completly dissagree with removing a link simply because we cant prove that it contains vital information. I found the link interesting. the idea may be only one persons. but so was every idea at one time. if it is relative to the subject and not unreadable I can't see why it should be censored. NPOV is not an issue. as stated earlier, the article must be NPOV not the links. what is the problem? --Olsdude 03:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, I find it amusing that the link has never been controversial on the French-language page for the province. The Ontario flag pages are by far the most popular on my Website, surpassing even the Res Publica pages that have links from all over Wikipedia.  They also generate more mail than the rest of my site combined.  --Jonathan David Makepeace

Hello SimonP
Hello,


 * I am loath to agree with AVD, but the link should go unless some evidence, such as media coverage, is presented to show that this is an important proposal. - SimonP 18:00, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

SimonP, why would you be loathe to agree with me?

ArmchairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 23:00, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Change it?
Hasn't there been any discussion on changing the flag, seeing as how it's only one of two Canadian provinical flags still based on the Union Flag? &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 10:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, three provinces have flags based on the Union Jack - Ontario, Manitoba and British Columbia. You can also throw in Newfoundland, as they used to use the Union Jack as their provincial flag, and their current one is geometrically based on the design of the UJ.--MarshallStack 14:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * See the discussion on the Makepeace link above. Jonathan David Makepeace


 * It has never garnered significant attention, and likely never will. Ontario is still a loyalist stronghold. WilyD 21:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Too bad. The current flag's rather ugly (and contains the Union Jack, but... well, their choice what kind of political statement they want to make with their flag). &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 13:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Give it time. Half of Toronto was born outside of Canada.  Imperial mentality is rapidly fading. Jonathan David Makepeace 01:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That sentiment might work if we were discussing the flag of Toronto, but otherwise I must conclude you've never taken a ride along the loyalist highway ;). The flag of Ontario is a beaut, and she's here to stay, eh? WilyD 13:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with preserving Ontario's loyalist heritage with highway designations and historic sites, but the flag has no symbol of loyalism on it (like an oak leaf). Who do we owe allegiance to?  The British crown, or the Canadian crown?  The current Union Jack hadn't even been created when the loyalists fled here.  It's the flag of another country.  The red ensign was rated the worst designed Canadian flag (along with Manitoba's red ensign) by NAVA for very good reasons.  It will inevitably be replaced by something that has a symbol of Ontario on it.  I'd happily vote for an oak leaf flag. Jonathan David Makepeace 22:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr. J.D. Makepeace, for a transplanted American now living in the Province of Ontario, within the Dominion of Canada, you have presented above one hell of alot of assumptions. Todays Union Jack (since 1801) is "a Flag of Canada". According to the 1965 Flag Statute, the Union Jack is Canada's alternate standard (representing Canada's membership within the British Commonwealth of Nations). All citizens of Canada are allowed to fly the Union Jack. The Red Ensign of the Province of Ontario is a cherished symbol, and frankly it is not likely to replaced anytime soon. Finally, regarding the guidelines that the North American Vexillological Association (NAVA) presently espouses, they are just that GUIDELINES (i.e., a set of suggestions). By the way, if the State Governments of the United States of America actually decided to follow the "NAVA suggestions" they would have to dump ALMOST ALL of their present State Flags. Personally, I feel that the New England Vexillological Association (NEVA) has a more open minded approach to classifying flag designs. It would seem that its leader, Dr. Whitney Smith has a more sensible outlook on topics such as these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitney_Smith

70.30.193.143 21:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favour of changing the Ontario flag, its rather boring and doesn't evoke any sense of pride for me. I am proud that I come from Ontario but I'd much rather have a flag that makes me think of Ontario rather than the UK. Something with a trillium perhaps. Basser g 20:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I just have to add here, to "User:70.30.193.143", Canada is no longer called the "Dominion Of Canada", but merely "Canada".

The 1707 and 1801 Union Jack(s) are Canadian Flags
The Union Jack of 1707 and the Union Jack of 1801 are Canadian Flags. The Dominion of Canada founded in 1867, contains today the 4 Northern Loyalist Colonies of the original 19 British Colonies in North America. The 2 Southern Loyalist Colonies (i.e., the Province of East Florida, and the Province of West Florida)of the original 19 British Colonies in North America are today apart of the United States of America. It is interesting to note that the State Flags of the State of Florida, the State of Alabama , and the State of Mississippi all derive from the Cross of St. Andrew, and the Cross of St. Patrick (with the Cross of St. George (England) excluded).


 * (1). During the War of Independence (1775-1783), the United Empire Loyalists of British America fought under the 1707 Union Jack and its 1707 Red Ensign (in all 6 Loyalist Colonies of the original 19 British Colonies in North America).


 * (2). During the War of 1812 (1812-1815), the Loyalists of British North America fought under the 1801 Union Jack and its 1801 Red Ensign.


 * (3). During the Feninan Raids (1866-1870) across the United Province of Canada/State of New York Border, the Loyalists of British North America again fought under the 1801 Union Jack and its 1801 Red Ensign.

Both Union Jacks (1707 and 1801) are quitesental "Canadian" Flags. They are our symbols. Only an un-informed individual (or a Republican) would call them "Foreign Flags".

ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * AVD, they are foreign flags. Where do we live? Canada, or the United Kingdom? We're not British anymore. Legally, Canadians have been a seperate nationality from British since 1947. Ethnically--the majority of Canadians have no British ancestry whatsoever. This rings true for Ontarians as well. According to the 2006 Census, 24.7% of Ontarians claim full or partial English ethnicity, 17.5% of Ontarians claim full or partial Scottish ethnicity, and 1.5% of Ontarians claim full or partial Welsh ancestry. Add these numbers together, subtract from 100, and... 56.3% of Ontarians have no British ancestry whatsoever. Modern Ontario is home to many ethnic groups--French (11.2% of Ontarians), German (9.5%), Italian (7.2%), Chinese (5.4%), Jewish (1.5%), Greek (1.1%), along with many others. The non-British majority in Ontario are not going to put up with an imperialist, colonialist flag for much longer. Heck, I fully believe that the current flag of Ontario is racist, considering the fact that Brits are a minority in this province.
 * Also, look at other former British colonies that, like Canada, have succeeded in becoming free from British rule. The former British colonial administrations in Israel, Zambia, Cameroon, and Belize all had ensign flags like Ontario and Manitoba. The freedom-loving peoples of Israel, Zambia, Cameroon, Belize celebrated an end to British colonialist rule and adopted new flags symbolizing their own lands. Look at Ontario's flag. Is there a single thing on the Ontario flag that actually represents Ontario (no, Union Jack does not represent Ontario; look at my above paragraph)? The Trillium, Ontario's symbol, doesn't appear on our flag.
 * Also, the current flag of Ontario was adopted as a flag of anger against the Maple Leaf Flag. They hated the new flag because it had no British symbols, so they adopted their own British Ensign Flag for Ontario. Such hatred against our national flag amounts to treason. Why should Ontario continue to use a flag born out of treason? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.110.26 (talk) 05:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Makepeace
Let me be clear: I have no problem with the content of the link. But the personal nature of the site puts it in violation of WP:ELNO. If you can find a link to an actual organization or a newspaper piece about a movement looking to change the flag, add it by all means. But as near as I can tell, no such movement actually exists outside of a few individuals and linking to their website is giving the proposal undue weight. Look at the external links on the Manitoba flag page... that is what we should have for the Ontario page if any such proposals are actually notable. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 00:49, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree with you about the links. I noticed the Manitoba article also has a photo. It'd be nice to actually see what this flag looks like in real life. Here's one on Flickr that we can use . I'll upload it to the Commons unless a better one can be found.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Outdated Sources
The second reference used in this article now 404s. edit: removed claim about the first reference. BaconMaster2 (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2016 (UTC)BaconMaster2