Talk:Flag of Rwanda/Archive 1

Sun not common?
I removed the sentence about the sun being "relatively unusual". The following countries have suns on their national flags:


 * Antigua and Barbuda
 * Argentina
 * Bangladesh
 * Japan
 * Kazakhstan
 * Kiribati
 * Kyrgyzstan
 * Namibia
 * Niger
 * Philippines
 * Taiwan
 * Uruguay

That's 12 out of 192 UN member nations. (OK, Taiwan isn't a member, bug you get the idea.) I don't think 6.25% is unusual. What device besides stars, moons, and crosses are more common? DavidMann 20:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * By moons your mean crescents, but I agree. -b 07:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I mean crescent moons and full moons. The flag of Palau has a full moon. It's yellow on a light blue background, which sounds like the sun instead of the moon, but it is a moon. DavidMann 03:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Other Flags with similarities with the Old Rwanda flag
I've read in one book that the Rwandans put the big R on the middle of the old flag because they realized that their flag is a mirror image of the Mali flag. I'm now confused, because the Guinea flag looked more similar to the old rwandan flag. Leoisiah 14:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

File:Presidential Standard of Rwanda.svg
User:Amakuru and I have both removed this, asking for a source and a legitimate reason to include this; User:Fry1989 has repeatedly reverted both of us. Absent consensus, it should not be reinserted into the article. Alarbus (talk) 03:31, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't need consensus because I have sources. Consensus is for when something is controversial and unsourced, or the page has too many things on it and we need to thin it out. You are only removing it because you've been wiki-stalking me and removing and undoing changes of mine you don't like. You don't have anything to the contrary that this flag exists and is what it is, and neither did Amukura.  Fry1989  eh?   03:36, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Source One, FOTW, a website considered generally very accurate by vexillologists and flag enthusiasts. Source Two a photograph from the BBC during an interview with the Rwandan President, and Source Three another photograph from a separate interview, both pics proving it exists, whatever it may be. Even if it's not a Presidential standard, it could be a banner of state, or something else, and must therefore be mentioned in this article, and neither Alarbus or Amukura have provided ANY voice on what else it could be.  Fry1989  eh?   03:40, 23 February 2012 (UTC)


 * See WP:Consensus. And see WP:3RR. Alarbus (talk) 03:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Go find yourself something better to do than follow me around and undo my SOURCED edits. You're involving yourself not because you have a genuine objection to the inclusion of this file, but because you've been systematically undoing my edits which you find undesirable for the last several days.  Fry1989  eh?   03:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)


 * You're missing the point entirely; a Flag of Rwanda. You're only claiming that it is the President's seal, which is not what this article is about. Alarbus (talk) 04:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I really hate edit wars, and sorry to be crossing swords with you so soon after we last met, but this seems to be a clear case of WP:OR to me. Attempting to deduce facts from an image is clear original research. And in the words of the the source you mention: "In the context, it seems reasonable to assume that this is a presidential standard." Two things with this:
 * I'm not convinced it is reasonable to assume this - the symbol, which is undeniably the Seal of Rwanda, is used in the situations that many countries use their Presidential Seals but that does not necessarily mean it is the Presidential Seal.
 * It doesn't really matter whether we believe it or not anyway, because the requirement for Wikipedia is stronger than that. We do not deal with assumptions, we deal with facts.
 * So please do not restore this, unless you can back it up with hard evidence, preferably constitutional or parliamentary documents or secondary citations which would point us back to those documents. And please stop assuming bad faith. I have no idea what the ongoing dispute between yourself and Alarbus is, but his/her points on this issue seem reasonable to me. Thanks &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 09:49, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above offers links to where I previously encountered Fry1989. I'm seeing an excess of OR in pursuit of flag enthusiasm accompanied by a whole lot of edit warring. The month block would be due to the many prior blocks for flag warring.
 * I agree that is quite dodgy and is not appropriate for this page (or any of the other language wikis it is being inappropriatly pasted into…). The flagspot site is asking for volunteer editors which makes it a completely unreliable source. Alarbus (talk) 03:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that is quite dodgy and is not appropriate for this page (or any of the other language wikis it is being inappropriatly pasted into…). The flagspot site is asking for volunteer editors which makes it a completely unreliable source. Alarbus (talk) 03:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, this is going to be so much fun. First, let me cut through all the BS by Alarbus. It's delightful that you think you can educate me, but now it's my turn to return the favour.

You are insisting that I am not infact claiming this thing is a  flag , but actually a  seal . Idk where you got that from, considering I have never referred to it as a seal, the file is named "Presidential Standard" (standard being another term for a flag of a government official), and any sources showing it, say that it's a flag. Below, I will furthur prove to you that it's a flag, as well as address some of your other nonsense. So, with the insurmountable evidence asserting which of the two this is, would you still like to try and argue that I'm claiming this file is a seal rather then a flag?
 * This is a government official's flag. It is used like this and this. Whereas, this is a government official's seal. It is used like this and this. Do you notice the difference?
 * Here and here, we can see that the President of Rwanda does not have a distinct seal, rather he uses the national emblem of Rwanda.
 * Alarbus, you state that Flagspot is not an acceptable site for sourcing, because it relies on volunteers. The absolute irony of that statement is beautiful, because we're on Wikipedia, a website which also relies on volunteers. Also, as with Wikipedia, Flagspot relies on sources, and cites them whenever possible, including from books and photographs. Even more so to counter your absolutely absurd statement, there are numerous articles here on Wikipedia which cite Flagspot as a source. This will be further addressed below.
 * You say that the claim by Flagspot of this being a presidential flag is dubious. That would be so, IF there weren't photographs confirming it's existance and use. Let's count them shall we? We now have (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14) fourteen independent photographs showing the President of Rwanda using not only the national flag, but also a seperate flag, consisting of the national emblem on a white banner with a gold fringe. That it is A: hanging from a flagpole, and B: made of fabric, makes it indeed a flag. Furthermore, these photographs come from the Office of the President and the President's Flickr, and are from such events as interviews with the BBC, Radio France Internationale, meetings with other African heads of state, and the Secretary-General of the United Nations. That does not make it OR, but a government source.

Furthurmore Alarbus, you state that the image should be removed from the other projects it's "being innappropriately pasted to" (sic). Clearly then, you are aware of it's use on other articles, so it is funny then, that while you are so opposed to this image being used, you have chosen not to remove it from the article President of Rwanda. You have had over 8 weeks to do so. Even more odd, is that since you are so certain it's a seal rather then a flag, why have you not at minimum changed the caption on that article from "flag of the president" to "seal of the president". For someone so vehemently opposed, this is a rather indifferent course of action. This leads me to believe you actually don't care about this dispute anywhere near as much as you pretend.

Now for Amukura. I really have nothing bad to say to you, because as misinformed as you are, you genuinely care about this matter, unlike Alarbus. Per the sources above, I hope you can also see that this is a flag, rather than a seal. The first photo I had posted when you asked for a source also proved this, but now we have 14 photos all saying the same thing. If you wanted an source other than just a photo, as you are now asking, you could have asked for that the second time you reverted me, and I would have worked on getting one. Instead you said "so there is a flag present depicting the national seal; that does not make it a presidential flag" (sic). Notice however, that you agreed it is a flag of some sort, so it's rather odd to me that you would now side with Alarbus in using the word "seal", which is completely out of place.

Now, regarding my sources, and are they valid or are they OR. A single photo could be regarded as such. However, the countless photos we have of this flag, and the fact these photoes come from the Presidency, I believe does not. As for Flagspot, numerous articles here on Wikipedia cite that website (also refered to as Flags of the World). Some examples of flag-related articles that use Flagspot as references (not just "external links", but references) are the following: Egypt, Cook Islands, British Indian Ocean Territory, Ohio, Oregon, Nepal, Iran, and Ghana. I don't know just how many articles cite Flagspot as a reference, but I stopped counting at 40! At first glance Amukura, you may also have doubted Flagspot as a good source (as Alarbus does, but for a most preposterous reasoning), but clearly the Community has placed strong faith in this website for the purpose of sourcing and reference.

I believe I have more than enough proof that this symbol meets the following three criteria. A: it exists, B: it is a flag, and C: it is used by the President of Rwanda. As this article regards the flag(s) of Rwanda, and all the sources I have above, I want a really good reason why this file does not belong on this article, as is common with other national flag articles that include the presidential standard, such as Belarus, Estonia. and Chile, just to name a few.  Fry1989  eh? 19:58, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Um. I have no opinion on this dispute, but for your information, the Alarbus account is currently blocked indefinitely, which might explain why changes have not been made. Therefore, perhaps it would be helpful to avoid personalizing this any further? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:09, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Come on, why waste a perfectly good opportunity to WP:BATTLE? Toddst1 (talk) 20:17, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nikkimaria, that wasn't my intent, and had I known about Alarbus' block, this summary would have been different. In any case, if you would like to review all the evidence and sources, and form an opinion about this, you're more than welcome to.  Fry1989  eh?   21:25, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's obviously a flag, but none of those sources actually say it is the Presidential Standard, as opposed to a flag showing the national emblem. There are flags showing coats of arms, e.g. Flag of Massachusetts, File:Flag of Biobío Region, Chile.svg, that are clearly not presidential standards, and the source used (flagspot) specifically states that it is an assumption on the part of the commentator that it could be a presidential standard, but it does not say so for sure. It is a flag showing the emblem. It is a flag in the President's office. It may or may not be the presidential standard. There is no proof either way. So, we can only say that the emblem is used on a flag not that it is the presidential standard. You point out that it has a gold fringe, as if that is somehow indicative, but the flag immediately next to it also has a gold fringe. So, I don't see how the gold fringe can be diagnostic as it seems to be a common feature of all flags in the president's office. DrKiernan (talk) 07:39, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I did not say that the fringe was indicative of anything, other than the fact that that makes it indeed a flag. There are plenty of presidential standards in use that don't have a fringe, and many that do. Unfortunately, nobody has been able to provide any other idea of what it could be. I passed out the idea (above) that it could possibly be a "banner of state" or something like that, but that wasn't even considered by anyone else. It's extremely likely that it's the presidential standard, especially since it's only seen in the President's Office and other events Paul Kagame is present at. When you look at the two flags you linked above, those are flags of subnational states and provinces. Rwanda does not have any of those, so it could not be that. Unless anybody can come up with an idea of what else it is, then that's what we should consider it to be  Fry1989  eh?   19:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've said what else it could be (a flag showing the emblem), and so have you (a banner of state). None of these people look like Kagame, and that isn't the President's Office. All you have so far is a comment on a usergroup by André Coutanche, who is "One of the stupider members of Flags Of The World", "posts wild exaggerations" and is "totally incapable of any "scholarly debates"" according to Rex Curry at rexcurry.net/fotw-flags-of-the-world-vexillology.html (and yes, I'm aware of the problems relating to him: User talk:Rexcurrydotnet). Currently, there really isn't much to go on, and I certainly think there is insufficient proof that the flag is a presidential standard as opposed to a national emblem. I see no way on the current evidence of deciding the matter one way or the other. DrKiernan (talk) 20:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That photo cuts out several desks, Kagame could still have been present. Either way, which user said anything about it on FOTW it isn't really relevant to me, because FOTW is only one source, there are 13 others which agree with that assertion. So far, there's no real proof that it isn't a presidential standard. The only way to be 100% sure, is to contact the President. Unortunately, that is what I have been trying to do. On the President's website, there is an "Ask the President" button, which allows you to send a small question to the PO. However, it wont work for me when I try and click "send". So I had to go through the "Contact Us", and email them. I've done so 3 times in the last month, and never gotten a reply. So without an answer, all we have is the pics, which I believe there are enough of to assert this symbol's status as a presidential standard.  Fry1989  eh?   20:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it fairly certain that the flag behind the Speaker's desk is always there . You have no proof that it is a presidential standard. DrKiernan (talk) 20:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And you have no proof it's not. Now, if you believe it isn't, then instead of trying to convince me, why don't you work with me on finding out just what it is, so that we can add it to the article, and describe what it actually is, because even though we disagree about it being a presidential standard, we both agree it's a flag of some sort, and this article pertains to flag(s) of Rwanda. That means all flags in Rwanda, not just the national one.  Fry1989  eh?   21:16, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I never claimed to have any proof of the opposite, as my comments above demonstrate: "It may or may not be the presidential standard. There is no proof either way." "I see no way on the current evidence of deciding the matter one way or the other." I have not made any statement of belief in any direction on the flag's meaning. I have actually made extensive searches both online and in print sources for information on the flag. So, your usual supercilious injunction for me to put some work in is once again out-of-order. I NEVER NEVER comment without looking at the sources. If you understood that one thing about me perhaps you wouldn't treat me like shit. DrKiernan (talk) 21:38, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not treating you like shit, atleast from my perspective. And I never said you don't look at sources. What I said is, we disagree as to what this is. I believe that it's a presidential standard, based on all the sources I have provided. You believe it is not, based on several photos you have where it is used but the president does not appear to be present. But instead of arguing based on everything that's here, we should work together on finding out what it is. I've been emailing the PO for a month, and it isn't working out for me. Why don't you try and see if it works for you? Or try something else you can think of. I didn't suggest you "put some work into it" to be mean, I said it because we need to figure this out. That's why I said "work with me". You took it as a rude accusation of lack of care, where I meant it as a request for help.  Fry1989  eh?   21:44, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Look, I didn't have to ask you to help me and work with me, but I did. I did because I want this issue figured out, and I can't do it alone, I have tried what I can think of and it's not working for me. We know two things. One, it's a flag, 2, it's used in Rwanda. Whatever you and I believe beyond than that, doesn't change the fact that it is relevant to this article. I have file mover rights on Commons, and would be more than happy to change the name of the file, if we can find out what this is. That's all I want.  Fry1989  eh?   21:59, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's anything online or published about it, or we would have found it by now. We'll either have to assume it's the coat of arms on a flag, or you can try asking the High Commission in Ottawa or the Embassy in Washington. DrKiernan (talk) 06:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll try that. Hopefully I'll get more of a nod from them than I have from the PO.  Fry1989  eh?   03:07, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I have finally gotten a reply. I had to email the Presidency three times, the PM, the contact us section on the Government of Rwanda's general site, the Rwandan High Commission to Canada and to the UK, and finally got a reply (after emailing twice) to the Rwandan Embassy to the United States. They said it is the flag used by the President.  Fry1989  eh? 05:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)