Talk:Flag of Sark

Wrong Sark flag on this page
On this page, the leopards are on the first quarter of the St-George cross. But I have many photos (some on official buidings) where we can see that the leopards are supposed to cross over the red bars, like this : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Sark-flag-sized.png/120px-Sark-flag-sized.png. The main picture should be changed (like it was before)
 * solved --Oedipe23 (talk) 22:38, 27 November 2021 (UTC)


 * That is the wrong flag! It was correct before. The two lions (lion passant gardant not leopards) are NOT supposed to cross over the red bars; should be inside the canton.
 * https://twitter.com/SeigneurOfSark/status/1654869960047329280?s=20 Europegrowth (talk) 15:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Lion or Leopard
The article for the flag of Normandy describes both that flag and the flag of Sark as containing leopards, not lions. Could some clarification or sourcing be found on this? 75.154.110.206 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC).

Answer : Leopard is the word to name the lion in heraldic when it's walking and the head is facing (but english prefer to use ''lion passant gardant)

Restructuring the page
As there have been a lot of changes lately (due to the new version of the flag of Sark), a lot of informations was getting mixed up, and the history of the flag was becoming difficult to understand.

So I tried to structure the page, with of course precise sources for all the elements cited.

Certain parts concerning the history of the island do not seem useful to me on a page devoted to the flag, apart from those directly linked to the history of the flag.

It seems useful to me to have a section devoted to the traditional flag (Seigneur's flag which became the flag of Sark in 1987), making it clear that on this flag, the lions overflow on the cross.

So I'm opening this topic here to discuss about possible changes or improvements. Oedipe23 (talk) 17:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this though I do think there are a few issues with it. First it looks very disjointed, almost like a list of sentences. Furthermore, I think the English would need work (ex. "contacted the royal power to ratify...."). No denying some of the additional facts you have found can be included, but I think that should really be inserted within the existing structure rather than spacing everything out.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 19:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The current version is difficult to read, particularly because there is no real structure in the article.
 * The introduction is too long, and yet it doesn't explain the essential thing (the change of flag).
 * It seems important to me that in the article, we first talk about the historic flag (with proofs that this flag was indeed with the "big lions"), and then talk about the change of 2020. And both flags must appear clearly.
 * Concerning the English language, it is not my first language, so no problem arranging certain sentences. But regarding the structure of the article, the current one is really not good.
 * I am providing the link to my proposal: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flag_of_Sark&oldid=1223678076 Oedipe23 (talk) 20:02, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I see your point and I have restructured the article so it flows better and is easier to read. I've incorporated most of the intro into the prose so it should show a clear separation from the Seigneur's flag and the 2020 official grant.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 21:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OK.
 * I will try to integrate points that seem importants to me. And first, maybe delete few history details about Sark history, that doesn't concern directly the flag Oedipe23 (talk) 21:42, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Explanation on different points
To explain the changes:

It is incorrect to say that the current Sark flag was created by Herbert Pitt. There is no source indicating that the flag with the 'little lions' was used as the flag of Sark before its royal grant. The College of Arms (and the Queen) only approved a version of the flag (with little lions) proposed by the Seigneur, but it is a new design. So it is not possible to write that the flag existing since 1938 was officially "granted" in 2020.

Before 2020, the flag with the 'big lions' could be considered official. What makes a flag official is its use. And there are many official uses before 2020: The big lion flag was officially displayed in Parliament Square, flown on the island's official buildings (Chief Pleas & Senechal's court), was used for official commemorations, was used when Prince Charles came to the island in 2012 (he even held it), was used as the 'Sark flag' on official Islands Games documents, was recognized as such in Flag Institute documentation and of the Flags and Heraldry Committee, and the 2004 BBC article written with the previous Seigneur clearly states It was adopted as the Sark Flag. Everything I write is sourced. I have other documents in reserve if I need to further prove these elements. But if you change the meaning of the sentences in the article, please explain why. Oedipe23 (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It never asserted the 2020 version was official before then, it was saying the original flag with the bigger lions was designed then. The infobox was stating that the flag was officially adopted in 1938 for the Seigneur/Dame only and it was only in 2020 when the Queen granted it to the island with the lions fully within the canton.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 12:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * But the flag granted in 2020 is not the one from 1938. Why are you removing the information that explains this?
 * And with all the examples of "official uses" I've written before, how can you write that the flag was "unofficial"? This was not a flag only used by a few people, it was used by multiple official authorities. Oedipe23 (talk) 17:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OK so as it says in the article; from 1938-1987, it was the official flag of the Seigneur/Dame solely. From 1987-2020, due to the Seigneur's permission, it became the unofficial (de facto) flag of Sark. It was only in 2020 when the Queen officially granted it to the island that it became the official flag of Sark.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 19:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No.
 * 1938-1987 : The Flag with big lions is Seigneur's flag. But was quickly considered unoffically as flag of Sark by people of the island.
 * 1987-1991 : The flag with big lions starts to have an official use as Flag of Sark (recognition by the Seigneur, royal uses, official buildings in London, official buildings in Sark...). The Seigneur get a new personnal banner (1991).
 * 2020 : A new flag (little lions), based on the design proposed by the new Seigneur, is approved by the College of Arms and the Queen. The design is close from the traditionnal Flag of Sark (from 1938), but it's not the same, it's a new flag. Oedipe23 (talk) 23:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you're misunderstanding. Until 1987, it was the personal official flag of the Seigneur only. In 1987, the Seigneur gave permission for it to be used to represent Sark in lieu of an official flag (like the Ulster Banner being used to represent Northern Ireland in sports). It was only in 2020 when an adapted version was granted to the island by the Queen, that it became official for Sark.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 04:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * But it was used officially as Flag of Sark. The Seigneur recognized it as the Flag of Sark, yes ? So we can't write unofficially.
 * And as you wrote here, the 2020 Flag is an adaptated version. Not the flag designed in 1938 and considered as Flag of Sark before. So we have to explain the reason of the new flag (and the reason is that the new Seigneur asked the College of Arms to approve a design he sent, with little lions). Oedipe23 (talk) 16:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ::::::Per WP:COMMONNAME we used that because that was how it was recognised as the de facto flag. It was only later on in 2020 when it became the Flag of Sark. I don't think we have any reasons given by the Seigneur why he applied to the Queen to grant the flag to the island.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 16:59, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The new Seigneur wanted an officialisation from the College of Arms (but I never found why he proposed a new design instead of the traditional one).
 * But the fact that the previous Seigneur said (in 1991) that the 1938 flag was Flag of Sark seems good enough to consider that it's problematic to write unofficial. Oedipe23 (talk) 17:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with this ? :
 * The flag of Sark is white with a red St. George's cross and a red canton containing the two yellow lions (or in heraldic terms "leopards") from the flag of Normandy. This version of the flag was officially granted in 2020.
 * Before its change by Christopher Beaumont (23rd Seigneur of Sark), the flag of Sark showed the two lions protruding outside the canton and overflowing the red cross. It was designed by Herbert Pitt in 1938 and adopted the same year as the personal standard of the Seigneur of Sark before becoming the island's flag. Oedipe23 (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with this ? :
 * The flag of Sark is white with a red St. George's cross and a red canton containing the two yellow lions (or in heraldic terms "leopards") from the flag of Normandy. This version of the flag was officially granted in 2020.
 * Before its change by Christopher Beaumont (23rd Seigneur of Sark), the flag of Sark showed the two lions protruding outside the canton and overflowing the red cross. It was designed by Herbert Pitt in 1938 and adopted the same year as the personal standard of the Seigneur of Sark before becoming the island's flag. Oedipe23 (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Before its change by Christopher Beaumont (23rd Seigneur of Sark), the flag of Sark showed the two lions protruding outside the canton and overflowing the red cross. It was designed by Herbert Pitt in 1938 and adopted the same year as the personal standard of the Seigneur of Sark before becoming the island's flag. Oedipe23 (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)