Talk:Flag of Scotland

"sky blue" & Pantone 300 colors
Why is the sky blue one marked as the traditional one ? I've never seen a Scottish flag of this Sky Blue colour, so if it is a traditional colour, I doubt that it's a Scottish tradition. Although the colour of the flag does vary a bit, the range is generally between the Royal Blue of the Union flag and a Navy Blue. If you know the legend of the cross in the sky which is the traditional story behind the adoption of the flag, you will understand why the blue is generally dark. I strongly recommend that the Pantone 300 image be used throughout the Wikipedia. The Sky Blue one looks very odd to a Scotsman like myself. -- Derek Ross 05:05, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hungus
Arcturus added the bit about the legend of King Hungus. I'm darned if I can find a reference to Hungus, and there's no-one on List of British monarchs, List of Kings of the Picts, List of Kings of Dalriada, or Kingdom of Strathclyde who sounds Hungus-ey. I figure this is the usual case of folks in olden times being especially liberal about spelling names - does anyone know to whom we can resolve that mean old Hungus redlink? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:42, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Finlay,

The battle referred to is the Battle of Athelstaneford c.830. This would give the Pictish King as Oengus, from the Wikipedia list. This website (and many others) give his name as 'Angus Mac Fergus, King of the Picts of Alba'. As you say, liberal spelling of names could be to blame, but Hungus does appear in many sources. It looks like it should be 9th century not 8th. What do you reckon - confirm the century and perhaps change to Oengus (or add note of uncertainty) to tie in with the List of Kings of the Picts?

Arcturus 14:48, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'm not enough of a history buff to decide. Maybe Derek, who is, will know. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:46, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Link to Athelstan should be changed - Date of Battle is c832 but the Athelstan page shows him as being alive 895 – October 27, 939 - Web Sources point to Athelstan as being a Nothumbrian leader killed in the battle. --Elwell 13:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The Saltire
Should there be a redirect page called The Saltire for this page? And should both words be capitalized, or only the first? The article on saltire only capitalizes the first. Nae'blis 21:56:18, 2005-08-29 (UTC)


 * The software always capitalises the first letter of an article title (whether you like it that way or not). There would be no harm in having a redirect at The saltire. I think that having that will mean that entering "The Saltire" into the GO box will automatically hit the redirect. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 22:01, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * Added The Saltire because that was what Google said the most common rendering of the name is, and it *is* a proper noun. Will add the coloquialism to the article. Nae'blis 17:12:00, 2005-08-30 (UTC)

Difference between the blues
Is there a known reason for the difference of royal/navy blues between the Flag of Scotland and the Union Jack? Both articles advise the reader to 'take note' of the difference, but make no mention of the why. Nae'blis 17:02:20, 2005-08-30 (UTC)

Official color
[User:Mais oui!|Mais oui!]] keeps removing the following sentence:


 * "There is no official definition of the exact shade of blue which should be used as the field."

And stating that the Pantone 300 is official. Here is an excerpt about this matter from :


 * 18 February 2003 :   The Education, Culture and Sport Committee considered a petition from Mr George Reid on the Saltire flag. The Committee agreed that the colour of the Saltire flag should be colour reference Pantone 300. The Committee noted that it was not endorsing any guidance by taking this decision and also noted that consideration of the Petition was now concluded.
 * 25 March 2003 :   The Public Petitions Committee considered a response from the Education, Culture and Sport Committee in relation to the issues raised. The Committee agreed to suggest that a voluntary code or guidance, recommending the use of Pantone 300 for the colour of the Saltire, should be agreed and published by the relevant societies with an interest in the matter. The Committee also agreed to take no further action on the petition.

It seems that a committee "suggesting" a "voluntary code or guidance" doesn't quite rise to the level of "official" (for example, if Parliament passed a law saying to use Pantone 300, then that would unquestionably be "official"). I think the deleted sentence is valid (it has been in the article for quite some time, and no one else seemed to disagree with it).--JW1805 15:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Does anybody know a colour match for the Saltire pre-United Kingdom. I'm not expecting anything exact or official but just something a bit more specific than sky blue. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.75.72 (talk) 22:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The Royal Flag of Scotland
Shouldn't this page mention the royal flag of scotland? I see this flag almost as much as I see the Saltire. I will write something about this, and put it up. John
 * This info is already at Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland.. --JW1805 15:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Oldest image of the flag
I will like to see the oldest image of Flag of Scotland.Håbet 22:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Would you? How interesting. Tpacw (talk) 17:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, let's not dismiss this idea so hurriedly. The article describes the seal but gives no image, it would be useful to have an image of an early use of the saltire on such an artefact in scotland for reference. Walker Slake (talk) 12:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Håbet makes a good point and Tpacw still needs to grow up (hopefully he did in the past 13 years). If there is an image for the oldest known flag of Scotland that is not royal I would like to see it as well.


 * ICE77 (talk) 05:09, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Edit warring over date
Can you guys stop and discuss this please? --Bazzargh (talk) 18:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Bazzargh, perhaps we needed reminding. I've no problem with editors making contributions to articles on the basis of either referenced facts or achieving consensus. What I do object to are situations, this being a case in point, where a fundamental aspect to an article is repeatedly altered without any discussion or appropriate reference being provided by the editor in question; POV pushing comes to mind. When the editor concerned was invited to undertake to discuss or provide a reference, the invite was firstly ignored and then positively declined.


 * While there may not be an actual 1100 year old flag, or painting, or carving or other facsimile to prove beyond all reasonable doubt, there is no dispute out with this forum that, whether it be in "legend" or "fact", that the Saltire as a symbol associated with Scotland pre-dates the C16th. On this the article itself is also quite clear. My opinion is leave 'as is' and let the reader discover via the article itself the origins of the symbol and flag, even providing a link to an external reference by the date in the info box if others feel that would be appropriate. (FOTW perhaps?). Regards Rab-k (talk) 20:17, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I have added a reference tag to the 9th century date and bracketed it as (approx). That reference shows the first date of use to be well prior to the 16th century and probably closer to the 11th century, though without a confirmed reference it can only be approximated for the 9th, hence the bracketed wording. Perhaps this will suffice until a confirmed citation can be given? Richard Harvey (talk) 23:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Richard Harvey (talk), very much appreciated. Rab-k (talk) 23:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Flag of England says 16th century, because that was its first use on its own. The Cross of St. George had been used since at least the 12th along with others. A similar situation pertains to Scotland. At the very least, the two articles should apply the same criteria. TharkunColl (talk) 23:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * While I, in common with many other editors, do not consider it a requirement that articles on any given subject mirror each other in a mundane 'one-size-fits-all' approach, I look forward to seeing the date in the Flag of England info box change accordingly, should your desire for uniformity dictate such. Rab-k (talk) 09:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, this article itself states that the first recorded use was 1385. The legend of the 9th century battle is just that, a legend. The article's infobox should at the very least not contradict what the article itself says. TharkunColl (talk) 12:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Let's not confuse legend with fact. Unless further evidence is forthcoming, the date in the info box should be later than the 9th century. Nesbit (talk) 17:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with TharkunColl, the date 1385 makes the most sense.ShieldDane (talk) 20:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Amazing; through due process of discussion, concensus and the provision of a reference(s), we arrive at 1385. Just shows what can be achieved. when done correctly. 1385/C14th good enough for me. Rab-k (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Which Athelstan?
Æthelstan of East Anglia got nowhere near Scotland, and spent most of his reign attempting to preserve his kingdom against Mercian annexation. To even suggest he could be the king involved in the legend is ridiculous POV, a transparent attempt to render the story remotely possible. The truth is obvious - this late medieval tale remembers the Athelstan of Brunanburh, who gave the rebellious Scots a good whipping, and simply got its dates wrong. TharkunColl (talk) 00:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The article on Óengus II seems to have a more accurate account of the legend:




 * Nesbit (talk) 02:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

1:2 unofficial standard ratio?
Ratios of Saltires that are actually manufactured in Scotland, which I have found: James Stevenson (Flags) Ltd, Glasgow, www.stevensonflags.com, "Scotland's leading flagmakers" "now the main truly independent and self-financed flagmakers in Scotland". 1:2 ratio, Sewn Woven Polyester, (Seven sizes), 18x36, 54x27, 72x36, 90x45, 108x54, 144x72 (inches). 1:2 ratio, Printed Woven Polyester, (Three sizes), 18x36, 54x27, 72x36. 1:2 ratio, Knitted Woven Polyester, (Three sizes), 18x36, 54x27, 72x36. 2:3 ratio, Sewn Woven Polyester, (One size), "6x4ft". 3:4 ratio, Sewn Woven Polyester, "Special Sizes" "Ceremonial" "Complete with fringe" (One size), "4x3ft". 3:5 ratio, Economy, (One size) "5x3ft". Flags of the World, Stranraer, www.flagsoftheworld.co.uk/products.php?cat=10&pg=2, "Clients" "The Scottish Executive". 1:2 ratio, "Quality Sewn" "woven polyester" "2:1 ratio", (Seven sizes), 1 yd, 1.5 yd, 2 yd (£37.50), 2.5 yd, 3 yd, 4 yd, 5 yd. 3:5 ratio, "Economy Flags" "5ft x 3ft" "Polyester Display" (One size), (£5.95). 5:8 ratio, "8ft x 5ft" "Giant Polyester Display Flag" (One size) (£17.50). 2:3 ratio, "3ft x 2ft" "Polyester Display Flag" (One size) (£4.50). MAGELLAN FLAGS, East Linton, East Lothian, www.magellan-flags.com/magellan-item.php?code=506, "quality flags" "member of the FLAG INSTITUTE" "MoD specification flags". 1:2 ratio, (Two sizes), "3ft x 1.5 ft" "6ft x 3ft". Hi-Fli Banners & Flags, Kirriemuir, www.footballbanners.co.uk/national.html and www.footballbanners.co.uk. Their flags are "custom made". Though their standard ratio is 1:2 and size "6'x3' ". 1:2 ratio, Quality in two grades "125gsm" (One size) "6'x3' " (£52.87) and "110gsm" (One size) "6'x3' ", 1:2 ratio, Economy (One size), "6'x3' " (£10). To sum up: Of the Scottish Flag manufacturers I can find; one Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 Sewn Woven Polyester in seven sizes, 1:2 Printed Woven Polyester in three sizes, 1:2 Knitted Woven Polyester in three sizes, 2:3 Sewn Woven Polyester in one size, 3:4 Sewn Woven Polyester in one size, 3:5 Economy in one size. Another Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 Sewn Woven Polyester in seven sizes, 3:5 Economy in one size, 5:8 Economy in one size, 2:3 Economy in one size. Another Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 "quality" in two sizes. Another Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 as the standard ratio. 1:2 Quality in two grades in one size, 1:2 Economy in one size. The vast majority of quality (non-economy/supporters) Saltires made in Scotland and the rest of the UK, are produced in 1:2. Therefore it seems to me, that 1:2 is the unofficial standard ratio. An e-mail sent to me from the Scottish Parliament, dated 17 January 2007. States that the Saltires used for external use; have a "height to length ratio of 1:2" and are "2 yard" "91cm x 183cm". If you study the photo in the article, of the Saltire outside the Scottish Parliament. You will see that it is 1:2. Compare it with the five graphic depictions in the article, which are 3:5. For comparision, the Union Flag of 1801 in the article is 1:2. In Edinburgh, Dundee, Fife, Angus and Perthshire. All the Saltires on buildings or on the ground flying from flagpoles, I have seen. Were probably 1:2. In Perth there are Saltires on at least seven different buildings. Two hotels and a council lawn; each have a Saltire, flying from a flagpole on the ground. A car dealer has four Saltires flying in a similar manner. Perth Library has two Saltires flying from flagpoles, next to it on a lawn. As I have already stated, all were probably 1:2. On at least three occasions, at international football matches held in Perth. The Saltire officially representing Scotland, flying from a flagpole. Was probably 1:2. Michael Faul, Editor of Flagmaster, The Flag Institute; sent me this in a e-mail: "It does appear that you have come up against what we, in the flag world refer to as "the tyranny of inertia". In other words, things have always been done that way, so they shall continue in the same way." "It is only since about the mid-19th century that flags have been used ashore in Britain to any extent." "In the 17th century, Samuel Pepys decreed in a memorandum that naval flags should have one yard of length for every breadth of material. At the time, a "breadth", the width in which the flag material was supplied, was 11 inches. This gave a ratio of 11:18" (1:1.63636) (very slightly shorter than 3:5/1:1.66666). "Over the next 150 years, the size of a "breadth" shrank to 9 inches, but the decree was never changed so the flags came, by default, to be made in the ratio of 9:18, or 1:2. When flags came ashore, makers continued this ratio." "Since World War II, it has been the practice for flags flown over Army installations to have the 3:5 ratio. I stress the word practice. It is still frequent to see 1:2 ratio flags over barracks. Because, other than Pepys' memorandum, there has never been an official specification. The practice has become "set in stone". Hence the tyranny of inertia." "Flags made in other countries (notably China), the "economy" flags, are effectively all made 3:5." Rob Raeside, Director of Flags of the World; sent me this in a e-mail: "As you note, the weight of practice is driving the manufacturers and commonly accepted dimensions." In the article I have added 1:2, to the Proportion next to the graphic "Flag of Scotland" and to "Colour and Dimensions". If anyone still questions my credibility; I suggest they study my contributions about the Saltire (Scotland), on the Flags of the World website, by Thomas Murray. Hopefully, someone will use some of this information and add it to the article. Sulasgeir (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)



On the TV news programme Reporting Scotland 26 August 2008, there was a live report from a military base named Camp Bastion in Afghanistan. In the background was a Saltire flying from a flagpole. It was very probably 1:2. Sulasgeir (talk) 20:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC) Sulasgeir (talk) 20:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The Black Watch Regimental museum, Balhousie castle, Perth. Flies a Saltire which is probably 1:2, from the roof top on a flagpole. Sulasgeir (talk) 15:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Galicia
The Galician flag seems to be based on the flag of the maritime province of La Coruña (Corunna in English). It was a bureaucratic flag, so to speak, and in 1891 it was just a maritime provincial flag (and ,anyway, the Spanish merchant ships flew the Spanish merchant flag of the time: 2 red fesses on yellow). It is said that Galician migrants to Hispanic-America were accustomed to see it and identified it with Galicia.

Vexillological symbol (use by military institutions on land)
Given the use of the Saltire by Scottish regiments of the British Army during Operation Telic and Operation Granby, such would surely qualify the flag under "use by military institutions on land" as described in Vexillological Symbols according to FIAV / W. Smith as being "National flag use". Numerous examples of such use are to be found online, including on MoD sites: http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/land/rsdg_flag_hr.jpg and http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/bwbg/shaibah_saltire_hr.jpg and http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/bwbg/bw_prep_turret_hr.jpg. The Saltire is also used in connection with funerals, conducted with full military honours, of casualties of these operations: http://www.fraserband.co.uk/images/Photos/Press/Black%20Watch%20Funeral.JPG. Given its use by Scottish regiments of the British Army, any objections to this change? Endrick  Shellycoat  10:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No objections from me, but I'm an amateur in this field. My understanding is that your change makes the article more accurate: previously it listed the flag purely as a "state flag", whereas in practice the flag is used as both a state and civil flag. Since state and civil flags are types of national flag, I believe "national flag" is more accurate. But I could be wrong! Cheers, This flag once was redpropagandadeeds 11:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers. Wasn't sure myself; likewise an "amateur". Endrick   Shellycoat  13:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * PS. Found some interesting examples of the Saltire being used by the British Army for public relations use with the Iraqis, (wonder if it made a difference):
 * http://www.psywarrior.com/BritishH08601F.jpg
 * http://www.psywarrior.com/H089BF.jpg
 * http://www.psywarrior.com/BritishH089A01F.jpg
 * http://www.psywarrior.com/BritisLeafBasra.jpg
 * PPS Have now included a section styled "Use by military institutions on land". Endrick   Shellycoat  11:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The Saltire
I've moved this back to Flag of Scotland. I don't see how The Saltireis any more appropriate than The Tricolour would be for the article on the flag of Ireland. jnestorius(talk) 20:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit (1 December 2009)
I've done a bit of work with the intention of putting the article forward for consideration for WP:GA status. Any comments/additional help welcome. Endrick  Shellycoat  17:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Now up for GA nomination. Endrick  Shellycoat  12:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Saltire: French Heraldry vs Scottish Gaelic
Regarding the origins of the term saltire, as it relates to Scotland's Flag; I'm looking for a way to include language regarding the possible Gaelic origin.

The Scottish Gaelic Sròl Tìr is Banner of the Land. It would seem highly likely that a flag named the Saltire, in a Land that has spoken Gaelic for centuries, got its name from Scottish Gaelic rather than French. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of a reference, unless a Scottish dictionary is good enough.

Despite not having a reference, it would seem to me like this connection merits mention at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.156.36.1 (talk) 19:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Disagree. The terminology used in heraldry and vexillogy are predominantly French/Old French in origin and were in use for centuries before heraldic devices and their associated flags found their way north to the Gaelic speaking areas of Scotland. The term Saltire is not exclusive to the flag of Scotland, but applies to any X-shaped design which appears in heraldic devices (coats of arms etc.) and flags. If anything, Sròl Tìr itself probably stems from the Old French saultoir. In any event, for the Gaelic to be mentioned at all a WP:RS supporting this assertion would have to be found, otherwise... 217.42.117.207 (talk) 21:55, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I had thought of the possibility of the Gaelic being from the French, however the Gaelic is two separate words, one meaning banner, the other meaning land, and they are used in other contexts and combinations. It seems unlikely to be a coincidence and make more sense than the French word for a type of stirrup. It is entirely possible given the dates The Saltire was supposedly first used that it is named for the French Heraldic symbol, but it would seem to make more sense to call the banner of your land, The Banner of the Land. However, you're right, this information doesn't, and probably cannot, meet the requirement for verification so I suppose there's not much to discuss. (I am 205.156.36.1 from above)98.183.231.196 (talk) 00:46, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Linking to copyrighted works removed
I had to remove the whole "External Images" section, following a complaint at OTRS. As per ELNEVER policy. More than 2 images were "All Rights Reserved"  Ron h jones  (Talk) 01:29, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

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History of the flag
the cross of st Andrew was officially recognized by parliament in 1385 when it was established as our national flag which all scots were entitled to fly or display. although it had been adopted by scots centuries before, by the 14th century, it. had begun to appear on Scottish coins .at that time, however it was commonly presented as a white cross against a black back ground, perhaps to emphasize the contrast of colours -particularly in battle, by the 16th century the blue had become prevalent. after the act of union in 1707 and the introduction of a union flag, the saltire lost some popularity but experienced a revival in the 20th century, briefly, during the Jacobite uprisings in 1715 and 1745, a yellow or gold saltire on a blue field, representing the Stewart colours, was used, and the covenanters adopted it as their rebellious  emblem. Today of course, the flag is flown during international sports competitions, used on stamps and has been  incorporated into the logos of private  and public companies including the bank of Scotland the Scottish ambulance service and Grampian tv, according to heraldic rule ,the cross of st Andrew can be used by any scot as evidence of national identity or patriotism and is the proper flag to fly on a Scottish church ,irrespective of denomination,  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.215.49.212 (talk) 07:31, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

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Comments and questions
The Saltire is a simple but fabulous flag. I proudly display it on a wall in my living room. After reading this article I have some comments and questions.

1. "The connection between the field sign and the legendary mode of crucifixion of the saint may originate in Scotland, in the late 14th century".

I don't see a source for the above.

2a. The introduction says "Use of the flag is first recorded with the illustration of a heraldic flag in Sir David Lyndsay of the Mount's Register of Scottish Arms, c. 1542." The history section says "As a heraldic flag, the white saltire on a blue field is first shown in 1542, in the armorial of David Lyndsay."

Is it "c. 1542" or "1542"? It cannot be both.

2b. Also, the box says it was adopted in the 16th century but it does not provide a proof with a source for the claim. Hence, just because it appeared in Register of Scottish Arms of ~1542 it does not mean the flag was adopted then (assuming that is the criteria for the 16th century adoption claim).

3. "The recruitment campaign employed the Saltire in the form of a logo; the words "Scottish Infantry. Forward As One." being placed next to a stylised image of the Saltire."

This sentence needs to be rewritten.

4. Why does the first paragraph under the "General use" section use "Council Buildings" and "council buildings" at the same inconsistently?

5. "Also, the Colombian department of the Archipelago of San Andrés, Providencia and Santa Catalina uses a pale-blue version because the name of principal island (San Andrés, Saint Andrew), though also by the first settlers from Scottish origin."

The section "though also by the first settlers from Scottish origin" does not make any sense and it does not fit grammatically. If any of you can make sense of it please rewrite it.

6. "The Dutch municipality of Sint-Oedenrode, named after the Scottish princess Saint Oda, uses a version of the flag of Scotland, defaced with a gold castle having on both sides a battlement."

Not really: it's an ugly/asymmetric variation of the Saltire with the addition of an even uglier castle image. It's not a "version" of the flag. I have never seen an asymmetric Saltire.

7. The "Royal Standard of Scotland" does not say the most important thing, that is, Alexander III was the first king known to use it.

ICE77 (talk) 05:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:23, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Scottish Government Logo.svg

colour
can someone add the "RGB" to the colour (after the Pantone mention). RGB is used more nowadays particularly on computer paint programmes. So the colour would be R0 G94 B184 IMMSNZ (talk) 05:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC).