Talk:Flag of Western Sahara/Archive 1

FYI: Reverse side, hoist, crescent and star
Two editors have inserted a picture of a blank-sided flag (w/o crescent and star, i.e. like the Flag of Palestine) as the "reverse" of Western Sahara's flag, which I have reverted.

I just want to point out that Western Sahara's flag does not have a blank side, and that it is to the best of my knowledge hoisted normally. I know this is contradicted by FOTW, but I've seen quite a few Sahrawi flags, including on official occasions, and they're all hoisted normally, with crescent & star on both sides. Also see for example www.tukatt.com, where the flag is shown normally; and note the Polisario emblem which holds flags from both sides, with the C&R on both. Arre 01:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Colors scheme explanation
A second explanation of the color scheme, unique for the Western Sahara conflict...

This is original research. It sounds like some nationalist romantism - if that exists - and it has no place in a NPOV article and certainly not in Wikipedia. --Yobaranut 07:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * TWIMC: There's a comment or two on what the colors mean at FOTW. &brvbar; Reisio 12:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't mention the blood of martyrs thing... So that part really should be removed.--Yobaranut 02:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I originally wrote that. Of course it's "nationalist romantism". Every explanation of a flag is, just like national anthems. I got this from speaking to Sahrawis, several of whom told me this or confirmed it to me, so it's something they believe at least, which makes it relevant to describe in Wikipedia. But I don't know if I can find a web source. Let me try; if I can't it should be deleted for that reason alone. Arre 01:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Move controversy
Ported from WP:RM: Here is my position:


 * Flag and coat of arms of the "Sahrawi Rpublic" is much more accurate
 * I did not remove any page but adjusted the redirects.
 * There is in principle no change as the flag of WS redirects to "Sahrawi Rpublic"
 * What I will discuss is to delete this redirect and use one that shows both flags, the Moroccan one ond the one of "Sahrawi Rpublic"
 * The other page was created by mistake (Sahrwai Arab Republic). It does not include any wrong information. If you can/want to delete it feel free.
 * If you are angry because you got blocked, then it's not my problem when you fool yourself.


 * Cheers wikima 20:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay How is it more accurate? Did you read the discussion in the archive? No one said you removed anything. There is a change in prinicple; otherwise, you wouldn't have moved it in the first place. Again, for the Moroccan flag discussion, did you read the lenghty propsal in the archive about this same thing and why it was rejected in the first place? Please stop making off-hand references about my person and libelous speculation; it's rude. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I am following these discussion since a long time
 * What you want to reach is a static definitive pro-polisarian information that you make all to protect.
 * Whether the sadr flag redirects to WS one or vice-versa is pretty much the same POV.
 * And this is not what I discuss.
 * I will re-open the discussion: WS is a disputed territory, the Moroccan flag is used de facto on that territory, at least there where it is relevant: the capital of the region and all urban and populated areas.
 * If you think stuff on "sadr" is written womehere in the bible then you're wrong.


 * wikima 20:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay If you followed it a long time, why did you move this page unilaterally? Clearly, it was controversial. I didn't protect the page; I can't do that. Obviously, you don't think they're the same POV, or else you wouldn't have moved them in the first place. The Moroccan flag is used on some of the territory, and this flag is used on some as well. So is the flag of the United Nations. As I stated before, this flag is not merely the flag of the SADR, but Western Sahara, the Polisario Front, and the Polisario splinter group, so moving it to the flag of SADR is arbitrary. Plus, naming conventions are to choose the most common name, so this should be moved back. Plus, the flag of Morocco is the flag of Morocco; regardless of whether or not that *includes* Western Sahara. This flag is only of and for the geopolitical entity of Western Sahara, so should be here (not the ameliatory text at the beginning of the page, by the way.) I don't even know where to begin with that last line. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, thank you for this - It's now much better
 * You see now that it does not matter whether "sadr" redirects to WS or vice-versa
 * The current situation of the article should be ok for you if you could just have a little think
 * What matters is that the flag of the so called "sadr" is redirected from a "falg of WS"
 * Totally ignoring one main actor in the conflict, who claims the territory and has his flag on the capital and all urban and populated area
 * You see your biase? You want to hide these facts by complaining about the move from... WS to "sadr"! Wow [sic].
 * And be a little patient, then I will reposnd to all that phantasy stuff that you write above. No rpoblem.

Cheers - wikima 21:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * What? "You see now that it does not matter whether "sadr" redirects to WS or vice-versa" This is the exact opposite of what I wrote above. I have had several thinks, many of them big, and I explained myself at length here and in the archive. Why did you put [sic] after the word "wow?" Could you please stop being so rude? Honestly. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If oyu think it does not matter why did you report the move?
 * Where is the "good faith"
 * You see that I infact did not move anything
 * Just as mater of accuracy and logic (your ideoligical logic actually) I set the WS flag to redirect to the "sadr" one
 * But you don't follow even when thing are good for you
 * Now we will have an other discussion and it will not be ws<->"sadr"<->
 * There is as I say a major actor that is missing here. And he must be covered. Logical not?
 * wikima 21:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This is astounding I DO think it matters. That's what I've said the entire time. What? you "infact [sic] did not move anything?" Are you kidding? That's a complete lie. What things are good for me? Why do you systematically ignore the simple questions I posed to you about this page and move? No, not "logical not;" the exact opposite thereof. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh my God, will this never end? Let's just move the page to "Piece of cloth used by some people to represent a tiny, disputed territory in north-west Africa" and be done with it. If not, then I kindly ask all would-be contributors to this debate to read the archives before starting the same debate for the fourth of fifth time, lest all sides will be forced to repeat their arguments again. Arre 22:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Arre, things have to sorted well and agreed upon. Western Sahara has nothing to do with the flag. Polisario/SADR, yes. So, if you mean that WS is identical to SADR, then you are in the minority, because neither the UN, nor about 160 countries see it that way. Western Sahara is the disputed territory that can in the end be either Moroccan or independent (SADR), but till that end is reached, putting a flag on it here is POV. So either put two flags, or none. Away from any background convictions, don't you find it fair that way?. --A Jalil 23:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, so you obviously haven't read the archives. Please do, because my responses are right there in multiple versions with and without sources. As for how I view the question of what to name the article, the answer is that it's a pointless waste of time enjoyed only by political POV warriors. More on that too in the archive.


 * My view, in short, is that since the flag is intended as the flag of Western Sahara, that's what the Wikipedia article should be named too. It's the only one of its kind, there is no rival version, and there is even a nice little explanatory text included, to appease anyone who would want to feign offense at this. But please don't respond to this. Read the archives instead. Arre 12:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But you said all here. So there is a flag for Western Sahara? is it the one lifted on it (the Moroccan) or the one lifted in Tindouf?. My logic is very simple,and not difficult to grasp, unless you have an agenda (like koavf). I expect from you (an Algerian) more openness.--A Jalil 20:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Arre,


 * You can make an experience on any wikipedia like place.
 * Create an article telling that the earth is flat.
 * I promise the story will never end and it won't help reffering people to endless archives.
 * You are obviously confusing an encyclopedia article with the polisario wishes of a republic.
 * And from what you write here you should be more than happy with "flag of the sadr"", though your proposal with the tiny piece of cloths is not bad too. Just let Western Sahara be what it is, a disputed territory, and not what Polsiario wants it to be. I think this is pretty simple and clear.


 * Cheers wikima 21:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I restored the article to the old name. I don't take either position, but the move was half-done: the talk page wasn't moved. I advise the interested parties to relist it at WP:RM rather than ensuing a move war. Duja 07:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Biased changes by User:Reisio
“The Western Sahara area has never formed a state in the modern sense of the word.” says the History of Western Sahara article of Wikipedia. We can also notice that this page does not show any flag for Western Sahara.

Therefore, something like Flag of Western Sahara cannot exist. The flag described in this article is the flag of the proclaimed Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, which does not control the Western Sahara territory. User:Reisio have started an edit war against 3 other users to impose a biased presentation, in order to persuade that Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is a legitimate state for Western Sahara. --Juiced lemon 21:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This I do totally support.
 * Western Sahara is a dipusted territory and has no flag
 * "Flag of WS" as used in this article is fully pro-Polisario POV
 * It contredicts the body of the text that says "The flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic was ..."
 * I would support to:
 * Either remove this page and only leave the flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic article
 * Or make Flag of Western Sahara an explanation or disambiguation page that explains the matter briefly and links the the respective flags: the Moroccan one which is the effectively and de facto used flag in WS and the "sadr" one which is claimed by Polisario.


 * -- wikima 22:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "“The Western Sahara area has never formed a state in the modern sense of the word.” says the History of Western Sahara article of Wikipedia. We can also notice that this page does not show any flag for Western Sahara. \n Therefore, something like Flag of Western Sahara cannot exist."
 * Explain Flag of Hezbollah, then - I don't recall there ever being a 'Republic of Hezbollah'.
 * "that Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is a legitimate state for Western Sahara"
 * If you think otherwise, then you are biased - even the UN is open to the SADR governing the territory. My concern, however, is the name - which was apparently originally and still is most popularly today 'flag of Western Sahara'.
 * "Western Sahara is a dipusted territory and has no flag"
 * Explain the existence of this article. Explain this.
 * &brvbar; Reisio 23:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Reisio, I think this is not difficult to solve: --A Jalil 23:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There ia a flag for Polisario/SADR claiming it to represent the disputed territory of WS.
 * Hezbollah has a flag as a political party, but he does not claim it for Lebanon.
 * The UN sees the Polisario Front as one of the parties in the conflict, but it does not recognize the SADR. If you think it is "the legitimate state of WS", you are free to do so, but it not the opinion of the majority of thw World including the UN, the US,...etc.
 * The Moroccan flag is (from the Moroccan view point) the flag of WS as a Moroccan southern province.
 * So you can't unilaterally call the Polisario flag that of WS more than to say the Moroccan flag represents WS.
 * The right naming would be "The flag of the Polisario Front" or "the flag of the SADR".
 * I would like someone to give sources as to when was the Polisario flag first created.
 * the pesence of flags on the net does not make them recognized. there are flags for chechnya, Tibet, Assyria, ... etc.


 * "There ia a flag for Polisario/SADR claiming it to represent the disputed territory of WS."
 * As I understand it, there is a flag of Western Sahara that the SADR adopted. To adopt something, it must already exist.
 * "The Moroccan flag is (from the Moroccan view point) the flag of WS as a Moroccan southern province."
 * Which means such Moroccans will look up "Flag of Morocco", not "Flag of Western Sahara"; therefore there is no ambiguity, therefore there is no need for disambiguation.
 * "So you can't unilaterally call the Polisario flag that of WS more than to say the Moroccan flag represents WS."
 * I'm not. I'm saying the 'flag of Western Sahara' is the 'flag of Western Sahara'.  Whether or not POLISARIO and the SADR uses it is irrelevant to this specific point.  It's about names and origin.
 * "I would like someone to give sources as to when was the Polisario flag first created."
 * Better sources would be good, but I think you'll find it was created as a 'flag of Western Sahara', hence the debate.
 * "the pesence of flags on the net does not make them recognized. there are flags for chechnya, Tibet, Assyria, ... etc."
 * It does however relate to Wikipedia's established naming conventions, which dictate the most popular name should be used.
 * &brvbar; Reisio 23:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The neutral point of view would be to use/name it as the flag of the "SADR"
 * WS is a disputed territory and has therefore no flag.
 * The role of Wikipedia is not to reflect the POV od Polisario/"SADR"
 * Rgds - wikima 20:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Reisio
After making an intial first edit to the page, I re-read and took on board Reisio's basic point on Talk which, to paraphrase, I think goes something like this: The flag is that of Western Sahara first and foremost. It was created as such, and was subsequently adopted by the SADR as the official national flag. The flag was created to represent Western Sahara and so it exists as the flag of Western Sahara regardless of its status vis a vis the SADR.

Though some might suggest that this distinction is somewhat excessive, it does nonetheless seem to have some legitimacy. As such, I have attempted to combine both edits, including essential facts from both, whilst leaving the title as "Flag of Western Sahara", and re-inserting the foreward regarding the "partiality on the territorial issue in question".

Louse 03:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That is not correct.
 * When the flag was created (before 1976), the territory was called "Spanish Sahara". So it can not be said that it was created as "the flag of Western Sahara". WS is a term that first appeared after Spain left in 1976.
 * It has been the flag of the Polisario front, and subsequently that of the SADR, its auto-proclaimed republic.
 * The main article for Western Sahara does not have a flag or coat of arms, because the disputed territory does not have one. Each party claims its flag is the that of WS, but the UN, and neutrality are for that as far as the sovereignty is in dispute, no one can jump and make any of the competing claims to look as official.
 * So, it is completely vain from pro-polisario circles to try to impose the Polisario/SADR flag as that of WS. Morocco created its flag to represent every part of it including its "Southern Provinces/WS". So if the same "logic" is followed, the Moroccan flag can as well be displayed in this article.--A Jalil 04:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "When the flag was created (before 1976), the territory was called "Spanish Sahara". So it can not be said that it was created as "the flag of Western Sahara". WS is a term that first appeared after Spain left in 1976."
 * Assuming that is true - we would still be burdened by Wikipedia's naming conventions to use the most popular name (in this case: 'of Western Sahara', in English).
 * "auto-proclaimed republic"
 * What does that even mean? (rhetorical) (/me waits for A Jalil's pro-POLISARIO POVer rivals to start referring to Morocco as a 'self-declared government' for ultimate POV silliness)
 * "it is completely vain from pro-polisario circles to try to impose the Polisario/SADR flag as that of WS"
 * It's just about the name - I see no problem with making the distinction that 'the flag of Western Sahara' is not necessary _the_ flag of Western Sahara - in fact IIRC that distinction is already there in the text I've been reverting to.
 * "the Moroccan flag can as well be displayed in this article"
 * Nope, because this article is about _this_ flag, not "flags of Western Sahara". By your own omission, Western Sahara has no undisputed flag, and therefore we can't logically have an article on an official flag of Western Sahara.  I see no problem covering many flags in a flags of Western Sahara article, or (better, I think) just in the Western Sahara article.
 * ¦ Reisio 17:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: In-article name & dab
This is a dispute about what this flag is called within the article, and whether there is need for a disambiguation at top. 17:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

About name
 * "…fix names to reflect article name…" — Reisio
 * "…WS has no flag, it's a disputed region/territory and no state/country…" — Wikima
 * "…“The Western Sahara area has never formed a state in the modern sense of the word.” says the History of Western Sahara article of Wikipedia.…Therefore, something like Flag of Western Sahara cannot exist.…" — Juiced lemon
 * "…the name…was apparently originally and still is most popularly today 'flag of Western Sahara'.…" — Reisio
 * "…Reisio's basic point…The flag is that of Western Sahara first and foremost. It was created as such, and was subsequently adopted by the SADR as the official national flag. The flag was created to represent Western Sahara and so it exists as the flag of Western Sahara regardless of its status vis a vis the SADR.…does…seem to have some legitimacy.…" — Louse
 * When the flag was created, the terminology of "Western Sahara" did not exist. The territory was called "Spanish Sahara". The flag was created by the Polisario Front, to be that of the independent state they intended to create. So, the right naming could either be "the flag of the Polisario Front" or "the flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic". Western Sahara is a disputed territory for which the UN is trying to solve the sovereignty issue. Anticipating the result and making the flag of one of the conflict parties as the flag of the territory is not correct and biased. The SADR is not WS. That is why the flag is not that of WS. - A Jalil 21:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

About disambiguation
 * "…AFAIK there is only one flag associated with the name 'flag of western sahara'…" — Reisio
 * "…The Moroccan flag is (from the Moroccan view point) the flag of WS as a Moroccan southern province.…" — A Jalil
 * "…Moroccans will look up "Flag of Morocco", not "Flag of Western Sahara"; therefore there is no ambiguity, therefore there is no need for disambiguation.…" — Reisio
 * Moroccans know their flag and will not look for it anywhere. - A Jalil 21:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments
Do you see the name of a territory (like Western Sahara) in the name of this (unofficial) state: Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic? No. The only specific feature of Western Sahara is to be a former Spanish colony. That's why this territory is only a geographical region and has no flag. Therefore this article have to be renamed Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. --Juiced lemon 08:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? How is the precise name of the state relevant? You don't see the word "France" in "French Republic" do you? Your argument about there being "no specified features" makes no sense to me; can you elaborate? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Clearly
Western Sahara is the conventional short form name of the SADR. Morocco does not use the name Western Sahara, it uses "Southern Provinces" or something. Thus, the name is not controversial. It is widely used, and like "United Kingdom" is the name of the Flag of the United Kingdom article, Flag of Western Sahara should be the name of this article. - Francis Tyers · 15:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No, Western Sahara is the naming of the territory.
 * The so called republik is the naming of the government in exile.
 * These are two different things and Moroccan media have no problem using the term of Western Sahara, although it is not part of the official language in Morocco.
 * Clearly: This page should inform on this and link to the flag of "sadr" for those interested in by also presenting the flag of Morocco as the used one in Westerna Sahara.
 * This is how the facts are. All what has been done here by koavf and co is pro-polisario militantism and propaganda.


 * wikima 17:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "No, Western Sahara is the naming of the territory."
 * He didn't say otherwise.
 * "The so called republik is the naming of the government in exile."
 * Any republics that are called republics are so-called, and it doesn't matter if the government is categorized as a government in exile, or even if there is a related government at all.
 * Anyways, the issue is even simpler - what the most common English name of the flag is (not even the country); it's 'flag of Western Sahara'. :p
 * ¦ Reisio 03:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It is simple to understand:
 * WS is a disputed territory which is widely and largely governed and administred by Morocco.
 * Morocco uses the Moroccan flag, everywhere, in that territory. This is a fact.
 * The so-called sahrawi republic has no territory where to use its flag. It is used only in propaganda action. It's a virtual flag so-to-say.
 * If I were to push Moroccan POV like you do with "sadr", I would use simply the Moroccan flag in this article because it is the only one really used for WS.
 * But I preferred the neutral balanced way which mentions both, by explaining how the flags are used.
 * The flag you are trying to insert in here (I don't know for what reasons??) is the flag of the "Sahrawi Arabe Republic...", to be found here: Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
 * You are welcome to make the latter as beatiful as you want, but leave Western Sahara be what it is, Western Sahara and not the so-called "sadr"


 * Thanks - wikima 08:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is simple to understand: you are wrong. :p ¦ Reisio 21:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Francis Tyers wrote that "Western Sahara is the conventional short form name of the SADR": this is completely wrong. The UN uses the term WS to describe the disputed territory not the SADR. Only pro-Polisario circles do that confusion. Following blindly in the footsteps of koavf, Francis further added a mysterious explanation about colors with black meaning "Moroccan occupation". That is again a lie. The Polisario flag was created supposedly when it was known as Spanish Sahara where there were only Spanish soldiers in the territory. That attempt to make the terms WS and SADR be used interchangeably is one of the main goals of pro-Polisario activists on Wikipedia, and something the community will not tolerate.--A Jalil 23:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

RfC and reversion
Defeating the purpose On June 25, 2007, at 11:42, User:A Jalil undid revision 140536784 by User:Koavf, with the edit summary "The article was in the middle of an RfC before koavf put his fingers in it." Jalil, you tried to make the article a disambiguation page with no consensus. Don't try to radically change the content and scope of the article while there is an RfC, especially when there is no consensus to do as such. If you have some radical changes to propose, especially during an RfC, it is wiser to discuss them on talk than make snide comments in the edit summaries. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You must stop your pro-polisario propaganda now!
 * If there is a flag that is used for WS then this should be the Moroccan one.
 * But you seem to be simply unable to have a balanced neutral view.
 * The only thing you have in mind is how to to abuse of wikipedia to push polisario propaganda.
 * And you are the last one to remind others of the rules as you break them in a flagrant way.
 * wikima 17:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That's ridiculous Honestly, Wikima, I'm pretty tired of your bombast and personal jabs. Virtually every talk post you make about me includes the phrase "(pro)-polisario propaganda," and it's just unbearably aggressive. The comment above is not even directed at you and you didn't address the issue that I raised; what is the point of this post? Do you honestly think you're going to change my mind about anything at all by writing this? Just telling me "You must stop your pro-polisario propaganda now!" is not going to get anyone anywhere. Would you stop blind reverting this page, deleting its content, and creating some peculiar disambiguation page with no consensus in the middle of the RfC? What is the point of this? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Things are easy and simple and you are making all complicated, as usual.
 * Western Sahara = the disputed terrioty
 * "sadr" = the proclamed republic by polisario that is in exile.
 * ==> Western Sahara and "sadr" are two different things.
 * But you do everything just to make both match.
 * Even when you have benn blocked on indefinite you don't give up.
 * And everyone who is familiar with the topic knows that your edits = 100% polisario propaganda.
 * There is nothing aggressive about it, it's just the truth.
 * You are damaging wikipedia by this behaviour and you should stop it.


 * wikima

koavf it took you nearly two weeks to figure out that the article was put on RfC on the last version 130431723 by Juiced Lemon, and that it was you koavf that went to change that version without even posting on talk. After nearly two weeks of edit-warring, and insertion of silly explanations about the colors, now you started to talk about the RfC version you disrupted yourself, and the concensus to which you paid no importance. The current version explains the truth about the inexistence of a WS flag and directs to the opposed claims as NPOV as it could be.--A Jalil 19:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Erm, not a single new person participated in the (last) RfC - the issue was not resolved. ¦ Reisio 20:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think now it's resolved.
 * We have a neutral version instead of Polisario's one.
 * wikima
 * This new version is factual, but in my opinion, Flag of Western Sahara is not an encyclopedic subject. This article exists only to prevent Polisario's propaganda. So, I suggest to request the deletion of the page. --Juiced lemon 21:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah good luck reconciling that sentiment with the hundreds of articles in Category:Flags. ¦ Reisio 22:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Moroccan flag
I don't see how the Moroccan flag can properly be described as a "Flag of Western Sahara". It's a flag used in Western Sahara, of course, but it's not the flag of Western Sahara. john k 22:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've already mentioned that several times, but maybe they'll listen to you. (I won't hold my breath) ¦ Reisio 00:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * John, Western Sahara is a disputed territory not a political entity. It has no flag. The two parties in conflict claiming it (Morocco and the Polisario front) both claim their respective flag is the one to be used for WS. The flag that Reisio tries to impose is that of the SADR, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, the government-in-exile of the Polisario front. Actually this article should not exist at the first place, and now that it exists, both claims are shown. The right name of the article should be "Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic", in that case only its flag is displayed, but again, you can ask Reisio if that is not obvious. I will not hold my breath.--A Jalil 08:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My reverts preserve the status quo (and implement Wikipedia guidelines) - yours are the imposition. If this article didn't exist, we would still have to redirect it to Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (presuming this is what you want). ¦ Reisio 22:10, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This article is for deletion when there is an article for for the flag of the SADR.--A Jalil 10:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Here are two things you shouldn't do Copy and paste text from one article to another and mark an article for deletion mid-RfC. Those don't actions don't make any sense and contradict Wikipedia policies. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please stop talking about policies, you're the first one to break them when it suits you.
 * You have been abusing of wikipedia for a long time to push the polisario propaganda and fight for what you call the truth and intersts fo the sahrawis. Among other things you did everything to confuse Western Sahara with your fictive republic. Now it is over. Western Sahara is not the polisario republic. Keep this simple fact in mind please, and lay back.


 * Thanks - wikima 16:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Unnecessary That was a really rude non-sequitur. You don't need to take every talk page as an opportunity to slander me. Do you want to address the actual points that I mentioned? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Unnecessary is this page as Jalil is rightly suggesting. Flag of WS does not exist.
 * There is a flag of "sadr" which is just a peace of cloth largely ignored by the world and only used by polisario activits.
 * But you are doing all effort to mislead people by suggesting the "sadr" is a real state, with a territory, a flag etc.
 * It is a shame to abuse of such aplace like wikipedia for this.
 * Jalil is right that this article should be removed.
 * But if we do, other pro-polisarian will create new ones to continue the confusion.
 * My thought is to keep it and to explain to visitors that WS has no flag by presenting the flags used for the territory.
 * And please next time save us from your "policies" and stuff.
 * Thanks- wikima 17:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Copy-and-paste and dab
Please stop it Jalil and Wikima, you keep on reverting this into a dab page without consensus, right after an RfC that certainly did not indicate creating a dab page, and you keep on reverting Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic to a copy-and-paste, against Wikipedia policies. If you want the page moved, there is a process for that, but it does not involve copy and pasting article contents and edit warring. Please stop. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You should stop it!
 * You have become the campion of reverting and edit-warring in Wikipedia
 * After being the champion of Polisario Propaganda POV!
 * You MUST undertsnad that Western Sahara is not SADR!
 * You keep on reverting to maintain this confusion which goes along the Polisario ideology!
 * What you are doing is a scandal and a shame for Wikipedia!
 * Now you're trying to show your innocent and victim face, what a pitty game!
 * wikima 19:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Right That doesn't actually address the issues I raised above. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There is one fact to address you topic: Western Sahara and "SADR" are not the same.
 * So, stop making this confusion everywhere in Wikipedia, ok?
 * Ws and "sadr" nust be presented as two seprate things and not as the same thing.
 * Presenting WS same as "sadr" means Polisario POV and propaganda.
 * And this is what you are doing all the time.
 * So again, Stop that please!
 * Thanks - wikima 21:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * An other thing I forgott to say, you're the last one to talk about policies as you don't respect them.
 * Just have a look at you own talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Koavf#Block_2
 * wikima 21:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Again As usual, your personal attacks and slander are non-sequiturs; I don't have any response for them here, but if you want to talk about me personally, you can direct that to my talk page. Again, you're not addressing the points that I made (e.g. copy-and-pasting to destroy an article's history, deleting a page to make a disambiguation page without consensus, etc.); do you have anything to say that is actually related to what I mentioned above? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 22:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If you consider your own talk page as personal attack... then I really can't help!
 * wikima 22:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Right I don't consider my talk page a personal attack (I don't even know what that means), nor did I say that I considered it as such. Do you care to address the simple questions that I've been asking you? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 22:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There is only one flag associated with the name "of Western Sahara", which means there is no need for disambiguation. ¦ Reisio 03:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There was a RfC ongoing for this article untill koavf immediately after being unblocked from the indef went on reverting the article to a much older and inaccurate version. Here is the diff for koavf's disruption. So koavf, the disruptor of the RfC is you, and you should stop trying to fool others by your baseless accusations. As to Reisio, No, the flag you refer to is risen in the AU as the flag of the SADR. When it was created the terminology of "Western Sahara" did not even exist. It was called then Spanish Sahara. So the correct name could be either "flag of the Polisario" or "flag of independent Spanish Sahara" or something similar. So forget about associating the flag of Polisario/SADR with the disputed territory.--A Jalil 07:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Dab There is still no consensus to change this article to a disambiguation page and the only consensus that was ever reached was to not move it and leave the content where it is. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 06:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And during the last blocking/move fest, the content got moved to the other article, where all of the copied edits were deleted and a new article is started from scratch. Whatever happens, that needs to be reconciled. The DAB issue was caused while you were blocked. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Move again? As you can see above and in the archive, the notion of moving the article has been suggested before several times and never achieved consensus (it wasn't even listed on WP:RM or an RfC, as I recall.) Starting the article over again at the other proposed name does nothing to actually ameliorate that problem (although I am glad to see that you want to avoid the ridiculous asides about political situations, etc.) There is absolutely no reason to treat this example completely different from every other one on Wikipedia. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 07:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason why the article was remade because of GFDL issues (which you raised yourself). I not only corrected the spelling, but I also provided sourcing. I want to include those changes into the new article (whatever form it shall take). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right Again, the actual content of your edits is fine; fantastic even. My issue is not with the cut-and-paste but with the dabbing of the article where it is presently named. Once more, if you look through the talk above and in the archive, there is consensus to leave the article at Flag of Western Sahara and no such consensus for moving it to Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. Hence, your edits should be under this name, rather than that. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 07:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And, if I look at this with 1AM-caffeine fueled logic, there is not a flag of Western Sahara that represents the whole area. Of course, English publications will use the SADR flag. Even my boys at FOTW do that. If Morocco has that area, their national flag will be there. in the SADR controlled areas, the SADR flag will be used. I do remember with another region similar to SADR, Transdniester, we do have an article on that areas flag at their own article, despite being legally owned by Moldova. Is there other articles we can look at for guidance (flags of occupied areas)? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure As you pointed out, all other disputed territories/aspirant states/etc. have their flags at "Flag of [Territorial claim/Common short name]" rather than "Flag of [Long form government name]." In addition, as you also point out tacitly by your FotW example, this is the most common name. Furthermore, moving it is arbitrary, as this flag is also the flag of the Polisario Front among others. Why not Flag of the Polisario Front? Choosing the SADR is capricious. Lastly, the text as it is presently written is misleading in asmuch as the flag of Morocco is not used "for Western Sahara." No flag other than this one is a flag of Western Sahara. The flag of Morocco is the flag of Morocco. Needless to say, there are more details to be detailed, but I think that gives you the broadstrokes of the argument. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 07:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The flag was used by the front before it became the SADR flag. I need to see if we have articles of flags of political organizations or groups, but I would expect to find a few. What I am trying to say about the Morocco flag is the following; since WS is the territory of Morocco officially, the national flag of Morocco is used within their holdings in WS. Whatever areas the SADR controls, the SADR flag is used. Other than that, there are no other flags to my current knowledge. But, since it is 1 AM, I need to sleep on this. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? There are flags of non-state political entities (e.g.), but again, that's not the point. I have no idea where you get the idea "WS is the territory of Morocco officially," since no international body nor any state recognizes such a claim. Furthermore, Morocco does not even control the entire territory, only a portion of it. As far as other flags, the flag of the United Nations is flown at MINURSO sites. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 08:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I think I am seeing what you are getting at. Morocco has part of it, SADR has part of it and the UN controls a section of it. Hmm...I am maybe thinking we could move this article to Flags used in Western Sahara and link to all three. I do remember now that Macedonia's flag article is at the Flag of the Republic of Macedonia, which is not the common name of the place. I wish I can find more examples. I should really sleep now, just need to turn off the music. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not quite The UN doesn't actually administer any of the territory. Note also that this suggestion has been made before with no support, and again, that would be treating this case unlike all others. As far as Macedonia goes, there are two Macedonias, so disambiguation is necessary and the main article is at Republic of Macedonia, so it only makes sense to have its flag at that name. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Great job Zscout370. The flag of the Polisario/SADR has its ow article. The Morocco flag has its own. Western Sahara, the disputed territory has no flag. Two competting flags are claimed/used for the territory by the conflicting parties, and both are mentionned. this is extremely simple and neutral, unless someone paid for to impose one of the parties flag on WS itself.--A Jalil 09:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Result of all this is => the article is fine.
 * It shows both flags used for Western Sahara. And if there are others we can add as well.
 * I see this as resolved.
 * If you don't accpet koavf, I would accpet to use the flag that is used de-facto in Western Sahara and this would be the Moroccan one.
 * wikima 19:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

RfC: X of Western Sahara
Western Sahara is the name of a disputed territory on the northwestern coast of Africa. It is disputed between Morocco and the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. Since it refers to a geographic region, "Western Sahara" does not have an assigned flag, nor does it have an anthem, nor a coat of arms. Despite this, a recent disagreement has arisen at Flag of Western Sahara and Coat of arms of Western Sahara regarding what the function of these pages.

Both of them are currently redirects to Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Coat of arms of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic respectively. In a recent discussion on WP:NPOV/N, most editors concluded that this was not acceptable, since it takes one side over the other in a contentious dispute and attaches a political flag to something that doesn't actually have one. Most editors, therefore, supported disambiguation, providing for links to Flag of Morocco and Coat of arms of Morocco. One editor remained opposed to this, claiming that the WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC was being redirected to, and instead suggested a hatnote on the target articles linking to the corresponding Moroccan article.

Possible outcomes for the two pages concerned are deletion, disambiguation, or keeping the current redirects and adding hatnotes to the other articles.  Night w   03:18, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * …or keeping the redirects and doing nothing else. ¦ Reisio (talk) 17:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * In my view, a disambiguation is more than pointy (not really in wikipedia-sense, mind you); when people look for the flag of Western Sahara, they most likely want the flag of the political entity controlled by the rebel group or exile group or partially recognized country or whatever. If you want to disambiguate this one, you will &mdash; in fairness &mdash; also need a dab for Flag of Palestine (current a redirect to Palestinian flag). Technically, Palestine does not have a flag, since it is a geographic area; the dab would have to read something like "Palestine is a geographic area currently under the control of the State of Israel and the partially recognized State of Palestine; for the flags used see..." Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I mostly agree with you, except that having a flag and the naming of that flag doesn't necessarily require having a state or a geographic area.* ¦ Reisio (talk) 17:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Good points with the Flag of Palestine Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556. I think though that the situation is a little different.  Palestine can mean "the geographic region", but I think it is more often taken to mean "the Palestinian territories".  Western Sahara on the other hand is almost always taken to mean "the geographic region". NickCT (talk) 21:33, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ...Not to mention that the official name of the "State of Palestine" is in fact "Palestine", whereas the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic does not use the name "Western Sahara".  Night w   08:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

"Since it refers to a geographic region, "Western Sahara" does not have an assigned flag, nor does it have an anthem, nor a coat of arms.
 * Nonsense. See Category:Flags for plenty of flags that have little to do with anything, but have distinct names that people recognize them by.

"Despite this, a recent disagreement has arisen at Flag of Western Sahara and Coat of arms of Western Sahara
 * Between myself and a Moroccan who edits (as far as I can tell) only pages dealing with Moroccan matters, with a focus on those that could potentially put Morocco in a bad light, yes. SSDD.

"Both of them are currently…"
 * I don't see my viewpoint represented (and won't bother checking the accuracy of the rest). Are you trying to make yourself look biased?  Here's the actual discussion for those interested.

¦ Reisio (talk) 17:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You're more than welcome to express your viewpoint here, but I must warn you (again) that you're treading a fine line with incivility by implying that a Moroccan editor has an agenda. If you continue this, you'll most likely face ANI.  Night w   08:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The RfC instructions say to be neutral, and you haven't been, you're the one treading a fine line. It is apparent he has an agenda, if you think I was merely implying it, you have mistaken me. ¦ Reisio (talk) 17:31, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Reisio, I'm not seeing evidence of an agenda in the editor's edits. Look at this for example. That isn't something you see everyday in the Western Sahara topic area. Although I don't much like this map by the editor I think you are being a bit unreasonable. It's true that there are plenty of POV pushing (usually driveby) editors in this topic area but in this case I think a bit of good faith is justified.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 18:32, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think if you were acquainted with this issue as well as I am, you'd see it quite differently. I also make no claim that he is pathologically biased, just ordinarily biased.  If you review his edits to 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests in particular, I think you'll find a clear predisposition towards improving Morocco's image and status.  That said, I would revert anyone attempting to corrupt an article so, to ignore Wikipedia policy so. ¦ Reisio (talk) 21:14, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Support Deletion or Disambig Couple Points -
 * 1) This RfC follows on a discussion had at the neutral point of view notice board. Read for more details.
 * 2) I think a disambig page showing both the Moroccan and Sahrawi flag is preferable here, but I think deletion would also be a good outcome.
 * 3) Not to blugeon this point, but Reisio's history of editing this page is a little extraordinary for any who cares to examine it. I think his sentiment on maintaining the redirect may relate to some kind of anti-moroccan sentiment. NickCT (talk) 21:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Not to bludgeon this point, but I don't see your participation in the history at all — quite productive. I suppose you'd rather people not spend four years keeping Wikipedia from being stateagenda.org.  My only sentiment is towards Wikipedia policy. ¦ Reisio (talk) 17:31, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The fact you don't see me in the history means I am an "uninvolved editor" (i.e. one likely to be neutral). NickCT (talk) 15:47, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * In case it wasn't clear from the above, I support deletion, or failing that, disambiguation.  Night w   08:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * disambiguation (per WP:NPOVN). -Omar-Toons (talk) 23:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * disambiguation. Alinor (talk) 07:17, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It would seem then, that the consensus is for disambiguation. Any final words?  Night w   10:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It would seem you are out of touch with reality . ¦ Reisio (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It would seem you are out of touch with policy: "Sometimes voluntary agreement of all interested editors proves impossible to achieve, and a majority decision must be taken." If you insist, I can get an administrator to close the RfC instead.  Night w   07:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you just don't know what consensus means. Try reading WP:CONLIMITED, for starters. ¦ Reisio (talk) 19:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This debate has already been through WP:NPOV/N, so you should rethink that.  Night w   05:41, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Restore to main article (not redirect), and add hatnote It seems to me that the dispute lies in the imprecise nature of the article title. One can interpret "Flag of Western Sahara" to mean the flag(s) used in the region known as Western Sahara, or it refers to the name most commonly applied to this image.  I think the latter is the best fit; the articles in this series are about the flags, not about the regions, with content discussing construction details, history etc.  Also, this flag was used in the region prior to its adoption by the SADR, and that discusison has now been lost in the current form of the article, which implies it did not exist prior to 27 February 1976.  I think this situation is more closely compared to Flag of Tibet, not to Flag of China or Flag of the Congo.  "Western Sahara" is not a name equally used by the two political entities.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 15:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the main article? Tibet has a flag. "Western Sahara" does not.  Night w   05:39, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Night, did you read the statement? >> File:Flag of Western Sahara.svg Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:37, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't follow. Wikipedia has a file that's named "Flag of Western Sahara"... Are you using this as a source to verify that Western Sahara does indeed have a flag?  Night w   07:12, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Andrwsc correctly points out that the article was originally called Flag of Western Sahara. The point about the flag of Tibet is that the situation is similar: Tibet does not have a flag. The Snow Lion flag is banned in China, but the Central Tibetan Administration has a flag. So... you wanna make Flag of Tibet a disambiguation and move its present contents to Flag of the Central Tibetan Administration? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand what the file has to do with this... Tibet is a historical state. It had a flag up until formal annexation, and the flag is still used by the associated government in exile. The Polisario Front doesn't claim to be the government in exile of "Western Sahara", but of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. There's no similarity.  Night w   07:39, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't have skipped over this one earlier. :p This basically means you don't know what POLISARIO stands for and/or that it predates the SADR. ¦ Reisio (talk) 23:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So either you're incompetent, illiterate, or simply stubborn. Read through Andrwsc's post again. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll ask you to refrain from using personal attacks. I've read the comment. I'll wait for his reply.  Night w   08:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll ask you to refrain from being you. ¦ Reisio (talk) 18:37, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Is this normal or is it just particular to the editors who frequent this page?  Night w   18:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's you. ¦ Reisio (talk) 20:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is what happens when people are forced to live in refugee camps in the desert without food security and such like for their whole life. Oh wait, that's not us. We're just talking about a picture of a flag. Funny old world.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 19:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Off topic @ Sean.hoyland : Please keep on the discussed issue, which is related to Wikipedia. We are not discussing the sovereignty issue over Western Sahara, but how can we manage to create a WP article by following WP's rules, including WP:NPOV policy, a fundamental rule.
 * Omar-Toons (talk) 22:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Hold on! We aren't in a justice court here, then there is no "jurisprudence" that can be retained.
 * The question is simple: What is the status of Western Sahara? Does Western Sahara have an internationally recognised flag?
 * My questions are about Western Sahara, not the Sahrawi Democratic Republic.
 * Also, please avoid personal attacks as it can be reported to admins and the author can be blocked from editing.
 * Omar-Toons (talk) 18:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The status of a territory is not relevant to an article on a flag. Western Sahara does have an internationally recognized flag (http://images.google.com/images?q=western%20sahara%20flag) and even if it didn't, the flag detailed at flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic would still have been originally named and continually more popularly referred to as "flag of Western Sahara" (see WP:TITLE). ¦ Reisio (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that's exactly what we're trying to tell you, Omar-Toons. Most will look at the thing and say "oh, look, the flag of Western Sahara". Nobody comes up with "see, here's the flag of the partially recognized Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic." Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:38, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * @Reisio : A google search isn't a reliable source (see WP:IRS).
 * @Seb : When a person is looking for China's flag, for example, 99% of time this person is looking for PRC's flag, not Taiwan's one. However, according to WP:NPOV, we have to consider the disambiguation.
 * The WP:NPOV policy is applicable in every WP article, and if WP:TITLE isn't in accordance, the WP:NPOV takes precedence over it since it is a fundamental rule.
 * Omar-Toons (talk) 22:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A google search doesn't have to be a reliable source, you don't need a source for the blatantly obvious, which is what such a google search merely confirms.
 * As for China, according to the presence of ambigu ity we have to consider dis ambigu ation. There is no ambiguity as to what flag is associated with the name "flag of Western Sahara".
 * You're wrong about how policies interact as well, not that it matters. Policies can and do contradict one another.  There are only two things that rule in Wikipedia: consensus and admins.  We have neither for anything but the status quo here.
 * ¦ Reisio (talk) 23:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hah. Peculiarly, we don't do that. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 22:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Really?
 * Omar-Toons (talk) 22:49, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * (interesting; I'll fix that Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 23:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC))
 * Irrelevant, as Morocco does not call itself Western Sahara, leaving no such ambiguity as this. ¦ Reisio (talk) 23:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's right. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 23:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 1/ But Morocco considers Western Sahara as part of it without considering the flag you pretend representative of western Sahara.
 * 2/ But the UN considers Western Sahara as a disputed territory and doesn't recognise any flag for it.
 * What should we do? A redirection to the article Southern Provinces then explaining that these "Southern Provinces" don't have their own flag is as objective as a redirection to other claimant's flag.
 * Now I think that a deletion is more appropriate...
 * --Omar-Toons (talk) 01:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 1: This is en.wikipedia.org, not morocco.org. Morocco considers Western Sahara to be part Morocco, yes, and people looking for information on the flag of Morocco will find it right here: flag of Morocco.  They have their own names for the area.
 * 2: Flags do not require territories, territories do not require flags, flags exist whether they are official or not, they have original names, and they have names the majority calls them. Even if 'UN' stood for "Official Approval Body of Flags', it still wouldn't matter what they said.  The fact is that the majority of the world refers to a specific image as "flag of Western Sahara", and so we have an article on it.  The flag is not relevant to the UN, and even if it were, we don't work for the UN.
 * I obviously think it's fine as it is. It was better when flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic was at flag of Western Sahara, but I don't particularly mind if there's a redirect, especially since it curbed several POV pushers for a good long while.
 * ¦ Reisio (talk) 01:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 1/Neither we are on Polisario.org, then the WP:NPOV policy should be respected, whatever people look for.
 * 2/As the majority of the world referes to a specific image as "flag of China", and so we have a disambiguation page for it.
 * Omar-Toons (talk) 08:55, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 1: And redirecting to the article the vast majority are looking for doesn't make us polisario.org, it makes us following Wikipedia policy.
 * 2: This is a technical matter. People saw fit to make a disambiguation page at flag of China because, presumably, they realized that two entities claim the title of government of "China" (this exact name — names are important).  That is simply not the case with Western Sahara; Morocco claims Western Sahara as part of "Morocco" (with different names, even), and the other side has claimed it as itself.  Even if this weren't the case, people still associate the name "flag of Western Sahara" with the flag at the article the redirect goes to.  Even if this weren't the case, people would still look for information on the flag of Morocco at the flag of Morocco article.
 * ¦ Reisio (talk) 18:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Closing time
Alright lads and ladies, 1 month expired. Would anyone have any objections to me seeking an uninvolved admin to close this RfC? NickCT (talk) 13:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Might as well. I'm afraid I lost faith in the discussion after repeated personal attacks.  Night w   07:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Might as well. I'm afraid there's no consensus for change, as I said more than a month ago at WP:NPOVN. ¦ Reisio (talk) 00:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok done. Here's my summary -
 * For disambig/deletion - NightW, NickCT, Alinor, Omar-Toons
 * Against disambirg/deletion - Seb_az86556, Reisio, Andrwsc
 * Conclusion - No consensus. Move to relist.

As a note to the closing admin, I'd suggest taking a gander at this pages edit history over the past couple years to give some idea of the editors involved here. NickCT (talk) 03:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A closing admin doesn't need to take a gander at this page's edit history to respect (a lack of) consensus. Anyone who wants to revisit this problem in the future would certainly do well to examine this page's edit history, however, as well as other pages dealing with the subjects. ¦ Reisio (talk) 04:26, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I was asked to close this, but I'm not seeing a clear question or clear answers. Could someone sum up briefly what the dispute is, and whether it's ongoing? SlimVirgin  TALK |  CONTRIBS 17:44, 30 April 2011 (UTC)


 * NickCT's summary (just above) was accurate last time I checked. Out of a tiny set of users, a few wanted flag of Western Sahara & coat of arms of Western Sahara to cover the flag and arms of Morocco (due to its "presence" in the region), or to have the redirects deleted…; and a few wanted them to remain as redirects based on naming conventions or to avoid a bias towards Morocco.  There was no consensus among this negligible body of participants. ¦ Reisio (talk) 08:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * SlimV - In brief, Flag of Western Sahara currently redirects to Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. The Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is a "state" (not widely recognized) proclaimed by a rebel movement in Western Sahara called the Polisario Front.  Morocco claims Western Sahara as its own, and is in de facto control of most of the country (though that control is not widely recognized either).
 * It seems a debate has arisen as to how this page should be treated between some "pro-morocco" and "anti-morocco" editors.
 * We've narrowed down 3 potential options -
 * 1) Delete Flag of Western Sahara - Since there is no widely recognized flag for Western Sahara
 * 2) Make a disambig page pointing to both Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Flag of Morocco - Since there are two flags often ascribed to the region.
 * 3) Keep the redirect to Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - For reasons describe above.
 * Apologies for the somewhat vaguely worded RfC..... I didn't write it! Again, thanks for your attention.
 * P.S. As Reiso mentioned, this debate extends to Coat of arms of Western Sahara
 * P.P.S. My recommendation here is for relisting. I think we need more voices to weigh in.
 * P.P.P.S. If you go over the page history you'll note this debate has simmered for years. NickCT (talk) 17:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems clear that the RfC produced no consensus, and there also seems to be no ongoing dispute (that I can see). So you're welcome to relist, but I wonder if there's a point. If you do relist, please make sure the question is as clear as you can make it (and preferably only one question), then ask people to support or oppose, so any closing admin can read it easily. Sorry I can't be of more help. SlimVirgin  TALK |  CONTRIBS 20:15, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * re "I wonder if there's a point" - I think the point is that a number of editors feel that current redirect is inappropriate, and would like some kind of review.
 * Thanks for weighing in. It was helpful, though largely expected.  I agree with your "make sure the question is as clear as you can make it".  Wording these RfCs clearly is critical to getting closure on the disputed issue. NickCT (talk) 20:25, 2 May 2011 (UTC)