Talk:Flag of the United States/Archive 1

Civil flag
The article said:
 * Before the American Civil War, the United States had two flags: the military flag (as described above) and the civil flag, whose stripes were vertical and whose stars were blue on white.

I've moved this here because the cited web-page makes it look like nonsense. Does anyone have any evidence that it isn't nonsense? It's quite likely that there's a grain of truth in it somewhere, but I'm not sure where. The US has had many flags for different purposes, but the various flag acts make it clear that (from 14 June 1777) there has only been one flag which is the flag of the United States, and it has white stars in a blue field. --Zundark, 2001 Nov 3
 * I've found a couple more web references, but not enough to justify putting it back yet: http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html and the similar http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/mystery_of_the_flag.htm tell a slighly different version than the hornswoggle page. http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-librt.html shows a vertically-striped flag that predates the US flag and has tons of other great flags (click the links). --DanKeshet

http://www.midcoast.com/~martucci/flags/us-hist1.html also has quite a bit of info on different US flags. In particular, the section called The Eagle Standard shows a flag with vertical stripes (the one with an eagle in the corner). The status of the flag with blue stars on white is still unclear to me, however, because the original resolution defining the US flag certainly didn't allow this (whereas it did allow vertical stripes). --Zundark, 2001 Nov 3


 * After becoming aware of the shenanigans re the civil and military US flags, I have seen images of the civil flag flying over US Customs houses. One, a photo on the 'net from Alaska 1997. Two, a mid-2003 Atlantic TV news video about a non-flag matter showed it over the Calais-St Stephen crossing. The familiar, daily-genuflected military flag was not visible in the second case. (Ain't mem'ry a wonderful thing. I'm no longer sure of the 2nd instance; what I remember had fewer stripes. But it wasn't the flag of ME, NB, or Canada.)
 * -- anonymous posting 18:16, 4 November 2003 (UTC); corrected at 20:16 4 November 2003 (UTC)

For ref: The Scarlet Letter contains: "From the loftiest point of [the Custom house] roof...floats or droops, in breeze or calm, the banner of the republic; but with the thirteen stripes turned vertically, instead of horizontally, and thus indicating that a civil, and not a military post of Uncle Sam's government, is here established." This has clinched it for me; that flag existed. Now, what happened to it?

-- 142.177.22.1 03:39, 3 April 2004 (UTC); corrected 16:19, 3 April 2004 (UTC)


 * I am no lover of Yankee imperialism, but this whole "civil flag" myth is founded on a very thin thread that is contrary to all contemporary documentation and artifacts. -- a worthy contrary argument grounded in original codices which "I can assure you that none of Lincoln's fellow travellers have been able to get to them to alter their contents": the direction of the stripes was uncodified until an act of 1818 April 4 (effective 1818 July 4); the 1777, 1794, and 1818 flag laws refer to a "flag of the US" only, with no civil, military, naval distinctions; but there was a flag with 16 vertical stripes created in 1799 for an overseas-trade revenue agency. (Looks like this flawed idea of two US flags is at least 150 years old =)
 * -- 142.177.22.1 19:43, 3 April 2004 (UTC)

This "Eagle Standard" sounds a lot like the US Coast Guard Flag --Random832 21:28, 2004 Jun 14 (UTC)


 * The white-fielded flag with blue stars was likely never an official flag; even the earliest flag statutes of the United States particularly specified a blue field with white stars (heraldically speaking, a canton Azure with mullets Argent). The direction of the stripes (and indeed, of the points of the stars) was never fixed until the 48-star U.S. flag of 1912, when the stripes were formally defined to be horizontal. Iceberg3k 17:46, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Details
Having to do with the specifications of the flag

Image size
Would the majority of the Wikipedian community be willing to reduce the size of this flag image to, say, no more than two-thirds what it is now? I assume it's a function of the refresh rate on my old monitor (like the flashing light in The Andromeda Strain that triggered the seizure), but this large flag gives me vertigo, and I had not had any trouble with the smaller one that was here before. Since I think the effect has to do with the size of the stripes, and we can't go larger, I'm asking that we go enough smaller to throw my monitor rate (or my brain rate, if that's the problem) that's causing it out of sync with the stripes so I don't get dizzy and queasy looking at it. (I'm assuming that if it's happening to me, it's happening to a few other people, too, but that may not be true.) We wouldn't lose any information by it, but (I hope) I could lose the discomfort. -- isis 23:45 Oct 14, 2002 (UTC)


 * It is a little wide but there is no text flowing around. But the image use policy does say to generally not have images wider that 400 pixels so I will resize it down to 400 pixels wide and see if that helps. --mav


 * You will have to hit refresh to see the new image, but how is that? Still have the funny screen problem? --mav


 * Anyone think it could stand to be redone to use the new 'thumnail box' for images?

Proportions (from Image_talk:Us_flag_large.png)
--Jacobolus 06:46, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The executive order listing proportions can be found here . Look to the far bottom of the page

Color specifications
I've altered the colors to meet US government specifications. The US flag is a great deal darker in color than people realize. Here it is Image:Us flag large colorspec.png, so you can take a look and see if you want to replace the very bright version on the wiki page with something closer to the proper colors Dogface


 * I copied a larger version from the CIA world factbook. Press CTRL F5 on the page and tell me what you think of that one. --Jiang 22:34, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Color specifications 2 (from Image_talk:Us_flag_large.png)
The following is quoted text:

''The official regulation, which I just tracked down at the Defense Technology Information Center website http://www.dtic.mil is General Services Administration "Federal Specification, Flag, National, United States of America and Flag, Union Jack," DDD-F-416E, dated November 27, 1981. It specifies the colors by reference to "Standard Color Cards of America" maintained by the Color Association of the United States, Inc. These are:'' Joe McMillan, 25 January 2000
 * Cable No. 70180   Old Glory Red
 * Cable No. 70001   White
 * Cable No. 70075   Old Glory Blue

Old Glory Red (PMS 193C), White, and Old Glory Blue (PMS 281C)

(From: http://www.fotw.us/flags/us.html)

According to this site these colors in RGB are:


 * Old Glory Red: BF0A30
 * Old Glory Blue: 002868

—Cantus&hellip; &#9742;   09:03, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

The official colors given by the US Embassy in London :


 * Old Glory Red: PMS 193C (Solid Color, Coated) = RGB 191, 10, 48 = BF0A30
 * Old Glory Blue: PMS 281C = RGB 0, 40, 104 = 002868
 * White = RGB 255, 255, 255 = FFFFFF

--Jacobolus 23:48, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC),

Earlier flags
Hey, it would be really nice to have pictures of some of the earlier versions of the flag - any available?207.189.98.44 22:02, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * I second this. It's cool having the first flag, but it would be even cooler to have an image of every flag between that one and our present one. --Lukobe 20:04, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Done. --Jacobolus 01:55, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Navy Jack
Should we not include the Navy Jack ("Dont tread on Me") Is was adopted during the revolution, officially used by the Navy and Continental Congress prior to 1777. The "Dont tread on me" also had the stripes before the congress adopted the first official flag with the stripes. This is relevant to the origin of the flag or at least first use of the stripes. This flag has a lot of unofficial history as well. 207.211.43.44 12:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I know it was a Navy flag and not a national flag officially, but it was used in many ways unofficially and led to our current flag.

Most changed flag?
Is the United States flag the national flag that has changed the most number of times? We must have changed it at least ten times to add in new stars. Kent Wang 05:13, 29 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Dunno if it's the most, but I just noted there have been 26 changes over the years. Tempshill 19:16, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Yup. I just added pictures.  It sure is a lot of changes.  Lots of the flags had no real official pattern for the stars either, so while the ones I put there are the most common (Military, etc), there were lots of other designs in concentric rings, big star shapes, etc. --Jacobolus 01:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Puerto Rico
There's only one good reason that Puerto Rico shouldn't be a state, and that's that they'd spoil our flag design! - Woodrow, Emperor of the United States 01:20, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, http://flagspot.net/flags/us51star.html doesn't look half bad... --Random832 21:21, 2004 Jun 14 (UTC)

Cuba
How come Cuba's(a communist nation) flag is influenced by US' flag ??


 * Cuba wasn't communist in 1902. --Zundark 12:34 27 May 2003 (UTC)

The Great Seal
The flag was based partially on the shield of arms depicted on the Great Seal of the United States; - isn't it the other way around? RickK 03:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Apollo 11 flag
I've changed teh reference regarding the Apollo11 flag beign replaced. I can find no evidence that the flag was replaced, or that any later apollo missions even revisited the apollo11 site.

This image seems to back this up: http://www.cas.usf.edu/~jryan/moonmap.JPG

--Nemo

Mirrored flag
Is there any reason why the US Army has the Flag inverted on the soldiers' right arm (stars to the left)?

Also, when the Flag is hung as a tapestry (stripes vertical), the stars are to the left, not to the right, which it should be if the Flag is rotated 90&deg; clockwise?

CS Miller 12:55, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

The reason, as I understand it, is that US troops are considered always to be "on the advance," and as such the flag on their shoulders is worn to look as if it were on a flag pole that is moving forward (with the wind pushing the flag to look "backwards"). El Draque 16:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I've noticed the mirrored flag displayed on the right side of an aircraft fuselage. Anyone know where this is discussed or specified? Telliott 17:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Reversed flag on service personal
http://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar670-1.pdf

http://uscode.house.gov/download/title_04.shtml

§10. Modification of rules and customs by President Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/flagqs.htm

To wear our country's flag properly, the field of stars should be    worn closest to your heart. Thus, if your patch is to be worn on   your LEFT sleeve, use a left flag. For patches worn on your RIGHT sleeve, use a "right" or "reversed field" flag. Since the law does not specifically address the positioning of the patch, a decision is   left to the discretion of the organization prescribing the wear. Some elect to use the "left" flag on both sleeves. [Note: many states and cities have ordinances pertaining to the use of the flag; you may wish to contact the Attorney General of your state or the City Attorney's office regarding this matter.] If you are planning to wear only one patch, it is recommended that you wear a "left" flag on your left sleeve. Military guidelines once specified that in   support of joint or multi-national operations, the "right" flag is    worn on the right sleeve, 1/4" below the shoulder seam or 1/8" below any required unit patches. Now, this has been made a permanent requirement (Class A uniform excepted). Source: Army Website FAQs

This [artical] seems to imply that US forces used to look like cowards with a non-reversed flag on the right sholder of thier uniforms.

Gam3 15:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Circular re-direct
No circular re-directs, please! 66.245.2.114 17:30, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Betsy Ross Flag proportion
Hi, I made the betsy ross flag in the same ratio (10:19) as all the other flags, but I think probably most flags that were made during the revolution were in fact shorter than that. Should I leave them all the same size for consistency, or should I reduce the Betsy Ross flag, and if so, to what proportion. Also, should the Betsy Flag have stars moved closer together? Let me know what you all think at my talk page. --Jacobolus 12:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

History section placement
Should Flag of the United States really be at the bottom of the page? I think it's pretty important, and probably belongs before traditions, etc. The Historical Star Patterns section definitely belongs at the bottom, being long - elsewhere it would break up the flow, but I think history should be moved back to the top of the page where it was. --jacobolus (t) 11:13, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree, but you'd expect me to, since I'm the editor who moved "History" to the bottom of the page.  My main motivation in the move was that "Historical star patterns" should be a subsection of "History", and I find it really odd to have one history section, then some other stuff, then another history section.


 * I also don't see that how close something is to the top of the article has anything to do with its importance (excluding whether or not it appears in the introduction). This is not a newspaper article, where the stuff at the bottom might get cut off because we don't have enough space.  Moreover, as it happens, when I was a kid, my family had a copy of World Book Encyclopedia, and I seem to recall that the "History" section of an article was always the last one before the standard appendices.  (Alas, I may have just shot myself in the foot, depending on how much contempt people around here have for World Book. ) &mdash; DLJessup 14:37, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Taiwanese Flag
I have removed the Taiwanese flag from the Flags with similar design section of the article for the following reasons:
 * 1) There are no stars on the flag that are similar to those on the US flag. The star that is there is based on an indigenous Chinese design from the 19th century.
 * 2) There are no stripes on the flag.
 * 3) The fact that a Canton is in the top left corner is not indicative of the flag being of similar design. Many flags have Cantons, and these are not based upon the US flag.
 * 4) The fact that the flag has Red, White and Blue colours is not indicative of a basis upon the US flag.

For more information, see:
 * The Taiwanese Flag
 * Blue Sky with a White Sun
 * Flag terminology
 * Flag of Australia - a flag with a canton... but you try telling Australians that their flag is based on the US one!!! ;)

--One Salient Oversight 05:17, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Interesting historical flag reference
http://www.magazinusa.com/lv2/hist/i_hist_flag.asp -- 06:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I just looked at the above link. The site is in German &mdash; but it shows several historical U.S. flags, including some designs which do not appear in this article. &mdash; DLJessup 13:07, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Can someone make a US Grand Union Flag image?
It's the missing piece of the flag evolution section.

There's an example of it at Flagspot

I'm not very good with the GIMP, and I keep messing up. Two points to remember: Thanks to anyone who can do this! --Jpbrenna 02:48, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * use the offical color palette mentioned above, so that it matches the other US flags displayed here
 * The blazon should match the old British Union flag, not the present one which wasn't created until 1801, i.e., there should be no red in the diagonal bars (bends if you want to get technical). I'm attaching an example.

Symbolism
I am reverting the insertion of the following paragraph by an anonymous user:


 * The Second Continental Congress of June 14, 1777 chose the colors of the flag by using certain colors' traditional symbolism as follows: red, for valor, bravery, and the blood of the fallen; white, for purity and innocence of the new nation; and blue, for vigilance, perseverance, and justice.  The stars are considered a symbol of the heavens and the divine goal to which man has aspired from time immemorial. Currently, there are fifty stars for fifty states. While the stripes are symbolic of the rays of light emanating from the sun; there are thirteen stripes representing the original thirteen colonies.

While I have heard of the symbolism described above, to the best of my knowledge most of the above meanings were created after the flag was, in a manner similar to how backronyms are created to "explain" a pre-existing term. In any case, I would like a citation for the above assertions before they are entered into the article.

&mdash; DLJessup 03:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It looks like the removal was probably justified, just from a quick Google search. In summary, the colors are "officially" significant for the U.S. Seal, but this signficance was, as you suggested, applied to the flag's colors retroactively. This doesn't mean the significance doesn't exist, just that there needs to be some text in there to properly explain the history. &mdash; HorsePunchKid &rarr; &#x9F9C; 03:58, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)

52, 53, 54, 55, 56
Okay, what do the official designs look like for 52 through 56 stars? Phlogistomania 10:33, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

East India Co. Flag
I noticed the appearance of the East India flag in the article, but no mention is made of the possible (perhaps probable) derivation of the Grand Union flag from the East India flag. Is this an implied rejection of that hypothesis or an oversight? El Draque 17:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I added a mention regarding this some time back. I also added some links on the Grand Union Flag page to the East India Company. I also added some images of the HEIC flags on the HEIC page and an example HEIC image on the GUF page. Dbnull 13th Dec 2005

Veneration
On July 19, 2005, at 10:32 UCT, Supersexyspacemonkey removed the following paragraph:

The US authorities and its citizens have a respect for the national flag verging on veneration. This concept of respect for a flag is not understood by many other nationalities where the list above is seen as strange.

with the comment:

Removed comment regarding "strange" veneration of flag by US citizens. Claim unsubstantiated. Many peoples have similar or greater veneration for own flags, e.g., France, Mexico, UK)

On September 2, 2005, at 21:26 UCT, SGBailey inserted the following paragraph:

The US authorities and its citizens have a respect for the national flag verging on veneration. The citizens of many other countries do not have a similar respect for their own national flags, and consider the above list strange. People who protest against some action of the USA by burning the flag are taking advantage of this respect to deliver an insult.

with the edit summary:

Put modified para about veneration back in.

As can be seen, SGBailey simply restored his paragraph without answering the request for sourcing raised by Supersexyspacemonkey. Therefore, I am going to excise this paragraph.

— DLJessup (talk) 21:37, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


 * My sources are mostly personal observation of Americans behaviour - primarily as seen through the international media and the actions of anti-Americans who delight in burning the US flag. In addition there are specif references in the "Letters from America of Alistair Cook. Also http://www.geocities.com/stlaasr/article-04-2002.html ; http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/callaloo/v024/24.1deguzman.html&session=23905773 ; http://www.lcsc.edu/gtstraughan/POLS101/Discuss/discuss1dd.htm ; http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&report=sr298&dbname=cp105&.


 * From my POV, the paragraph I put in is both very mild and self-evident but important enough in an article about the US flag to be included. Obviously you don't think it should be there. Is that because you consider it to be factually wrong or because you dislike the concept of venerating a flag or because you feel it is in some way offensive to people or because you agree the flag is venerated but disagree that others find it strange?


 * -- SGBailey 21:40:38, 2005-09-08 (UTC)

There is an infamous quote which is attributed to Pauline Kael upon Nixon's election in 1972: "Nixon can't have won; nobody I know voted for him." While this may or may not have been irony on Kael's part, it does point up that personal observation is not always the most reliable of sources, especially when dealing with the opinions or beliefs of large groups of people. In any case, using one's personal observations violates Verifiability, which is why I reiterated Supersexyspacemonkey's request for sourcing.

In any case, a casual perusal of your sources does support your statement that the "U.S. authorities and its citizens have a respect for the flag bordering on veneration." I'd have to go back and check, but I think that your LCSC source also supports the final statement in the excised paragraph, about flag-burners taking advantage of this veneration. The second sentence, about that veneration seeming strange to members of other countries, is still unsupported, as best I can determine.

To answer your question, none of your four options is accurate. I don't know whether the flag is venerated or not. My initial guess would be that flag veneration follows red state/blue state lines (with red-staters more likely to venerate the flag than blue staters), but then I think back to 9/11 when it appeared that the whole country was venerating the flag. I don't dislike the concept of venerating the flag; rather, the reverse. I rarely care whether something is offensive to somebody and sometimes consider something's offensiveness to be a plus. I have no idea whether non-Americans find American veneration of the flag strange.

Honestly, I removed your paragraph for the reasons I stated: (a) it had been excised by another user, which indicated that it was controversial or contentious in some way and (b) you restored it without providing some sort of evidence in favor of your assertions. I'm hoping that you will find confirmation of your second statement and that you will then restore your paragraph along with providing references. BTW, you might want to take a look at Cite sources for good examples of citation style.

— DLJessup (talk) 22:33, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

US flag displayed together with other flags
The part about the US flag always having to be given the greatest, best and otherwise most honourable place when a collection of flags is displayed applies only when the other flags are of US states or other parts of the US, and/or when the collection of flags is displayed in the United States, right? &mdash; J I P | Talk 09:46, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph of "Flag etiquette" reads: "This etiquette is as applied within U.S. jurisdiction. In other countries and places, local etiquette applies."  It follows that the honorable place rule applies only when the collection of flags is displayed in the United States.  However, your other condition is wrong:  if there is a collection of flags from other nations being flown in the US, the United States flag is supposed to receive the place of honor.  Presumably, if the flags of France, the United States, and the United Kingdom were all flown on British soil, the UK flag would receive the place of honor.


 * — DLJessup (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

My conditions are apparently the exact same as yours. When a collection of flags is flown in the United States, the US flag gets the place of honour, even if all the others are of equivalent sovereign nations. However, that of course doesn't mean the US flag would get the place of honour in such a collection anywhere else. However, does the etiquette say anything about a collection of flags being flown outside the United States, where none of the other flags is of a sovereign nation? In particular when all the other flags are of parts of the US? &mdash; J I P | Talk 13:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * "Local etiquette applies." For example, if a display of the US flag and the flags of all the states were to be erected on British soil, I would not be surprised to find them following US etiquette on this point.  On the other hand, in the unlikely event that such a display were to be erected on North Korean soil, I would not be surprised to see Kim Jong Il order that the Louisiana flag be higher than the US flag in order to make some sort of point about Hurricane Katrina.


 * — DLJessup (talk) 21:21, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Modified the miscellaneous section to clarify the flying of the UN and Navy Chaplains flags. Added reference to US Code that clarifies the issue: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC7 71.136.2.78 23:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)Anon

Traditions: Most homeowners reserve flag display for civic holidays - is this true?
My experience in the U.S. has been that private citizens and private businesses frequently have the flag on display year round. As I am writing this, a huge flag is flying outside my office building; at home, my nieghbor has a flag attached to his house next to his front door, and neither of these things seem at all unusual.

This is significantly different from other democratic countries I have been to, in which you hardly ever see the flag, except at official goverment sites and events.

Do others agree with my experience? Happyharris 21:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)


 * In the UK, I have never come across individuals flying any flags at home with the exception of "bunting" on occasions such as a royal jubilee or wedding. Private companies may have flagpoles which are normally either empty or fly the company logo - again a Union Flag may be flown at a royal jubilee etc. Government institutions and tourist attractions often fly flags. Similarly I haven't come across many flags in other European countries, but I have limited experience of them. I have seen flags on display in the US however. -- SGBailey 11:26, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The only other country I have been to where you see the national flag so often is Canada. In Europe, you generally only see the national flag at government buildings, hotels, sporting events and political demonstrations. In the Czech Republic, even schools don't fly the national flag -- instead, they display the national coat of arms. In North America, most institutions, office buildings, stadiums, etc., fly the flag year-round, and many households do as well. I don't know why there's such a cultural difference between the continents. I suppose there's no particular reason why one should fly the flag year-round at one's home. But for most people, the flag is like a Xmas tree -- it makes them feel warm and fuzzy. Flying the flag in America is generally not considered a political statement. -- Mwalcoff 07:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think flying the flag in the U.S. is just considered an act of patriotism. Not saying that other countries are unpatriotic I just think Americans show it by flying the flag. I've been to the Far East and did not see country flags flown very often, if at all, except at government offices, etc (with the exception of Korea). I live in Texas and I know many Texans fly the state flag as much as they do the U.S. flag. I've also been to almost every state in the union and regular Texans seem to fly their state flag more often than others (or paint it on their barn roofs or sides of the barn or house). Maltmomma  (chat) [[Image:Flag_of_Texas.svg|18px]] 15:46, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Flags with similar design
I have been having problems with the "Flags with similar design" section for a while now. It seems unencyclopedic. Right now, it almost entirely consists of a gallery of examples of flags that are supposedly similar to the U.S. flag. No attempt is made to tell us anything about the similarity of the flags. Were some of the flags modeled on the U.S. flag? Was the U.S. flag modelled on some of the other flags? Are the other flags cases of parallel evolution?

Another problem is that the term "similar" is somewhat vague. The gallery seems to be focused on flags with stripes, with some offset on the left, but one would think that a definition this loose covers a large percentage of the flags of the world.

Am I alone here, or is anyone else troubled by this section?

— DLJessup (talk) 05:15, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You're not alone. This section does seem to be a bit arbitrary. There seems to be no guidelines to what "similar" means here.


 * Perhaps it should be replaced with a secition on flags that have either influenced the American flag (say, Great Britian) and flags that have been directly influenced by the American flag (like Cuba and Puerto Rico)? But just taking a look around at the articles for those flags, its probably going to be hard to 100% truthfully prove those flags were actually influenced by the American flag.


 * Maybe we're wrong. Are there any vexillologists out there that can show there is some sort of accepted method of saying flags are "similar"?
 * Ehlkej 03:49, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I am going to remove this section because I cannot find a good justification for its existence. If anyone disagrees with my action, I ask that you please explain here what purpose this section serves.

— DLJessup (talk) 05:03, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Flag etiquette section -- Copyright violation?
The Flag Etiquette section seems to be a direct copy of the text at USFlag.org. Maybe they copied from here? If that is not true, can this section instead be linked or paraphrased? Ehlkej 03:20, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Official historical flags flown continuously
At a select few places the Flag is flown continuously, by act of Congress,- usally the 50 star flag. At the former Middlebrook encampment site, however, it is a 13 star flag. Is this the only "official" 13 star flag? Are there any other sites where by act of Congress a historical flag is flown? Ekem 23:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The 2 flags at Fort McHenry and Flag House Square in Baltimore are 15 star/15 stripe flags. Ekem 16:19, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Upside down image of the flag
Could we remove the upside down image of the flag from the section "4.1 Standards of Respect"? The page is not actually in any distress and it should not be hard to extrapolate what the flag would look like upside down. It's almost like the page says, "Don't do this unless there is trouble or you want to disrespect the flag, and, hey, look, we just did it."

If no one registers disagreement, I will remove it in a couple of days. James Aguilar 07:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I see no special reason to remove it; it illustrates the point and doesn't really hurt anyone's feelings. [[Image:Flag of Austria.svg|15px]] ナイトスタリオン ✉ 09:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Burning section
Do we realy need it? As far as I can tell it contributes nothing. --Theredstarswl 07:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed it. There's a place in wikipedia for a discussion of the method of safely burning a flag in protest, but the page for anyone particular flag is not the place to do that. Flag desecration might be. --Shunpiker 12:34, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Washington family coat-of-arms or not?
An English book I havebeen reading says that the stars and stripes coat-of-arms actually belonged to the Lawrence family. Washington, who knew the family, had a signet ring with their arms on it. The arms can be seen at the church at Steeple, Dorset.

Dorset Curiosities, Dovecote Press Publications (1986) ISBN 0946159386

Anyone heard this version? Jameswilson 03:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

First Flight
I ran across this image on WikiSource: depicts a painting of the "first flight". Would it be of use in this article? &mdash;This user has left wikipedia 11:48 2006-01-29

Places where the American flag is displayed continuously
Would it be wrong to say that this is true for all US embassies? Leftis t 21:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Edits to Etiquette
Edits by anonymous editor 69.234.138.36 seem to be contradictory. Is flying the US flag upside down a signal of distress or not? As far as I can tell, the user just has a personal opinion to voice. If no one objects, I will remove the material added concerning distress. Coleca 03:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

51-star flag? Appropriate?
I recognize that there has been an official design made for the flag, but is it really necessary? I mean, if there was a section devoted to the design proccess, the designer, and the possible uses for it, that'd be fine, but it's just plopped in the symmety section (not appropriate), and the context in that section has nothing to do with it. I propose the removal of it unless someone can come up with a viable section explaining the 51+ star flags and their potential uses, designers, and background, etc. Thanks. -- J @  red  [T]/[+ ] 22:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As a quick fix, I have moved the flag so that it is no longer in the “Symmetry” section but instead appears in the “Future of the flag” section for which it is a much more natural fit.
 * — DLJessup (talk) 23:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * While I guess that is somewhat appropriate, I still think that someone needs to take the time to add a bit more about the flag. What's the point of an image if there's nothing explaining it? Thank you though. -- J @  red  [T]/[+ ] 23:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)