Talk:Flags of the Confederate States of America/Archive 1

License plates
"In North Carolina, vehicle owners can request a license plate from the state featuring the Sons of Confederate Veterans logo, which incorporates a Confederate Battle Flag." - Also in Virginia -LtNOWIS 00:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Bonnie Blue Flag
I think the "Bonnie Blue Flag" should be transfered from this page to its own separate page. Strictly speaking, it is not a "Confederate Flag". Unlike the other flags on this page, it was never officially used to represent the CSA. A detailed discussion of this flag, and its use as the flag of the Republic of West Florida would be better located on a different page. --JW1805 03:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * An expanded article on this flag is now at Bonnie Blue Flag.
 * We have a minor rvt war going on about this, I see. We should discuss it here on the talk page.  I don't see any reason why this page should contain so much duplicated information that is already at the Bonnie Blue Flag article.  This page should stick to flags that were unique to the Confederacy.  --JW1805 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Although not an official flag, it was widely used to represent the confederacy prior to the adoption of the official flags. It was a well known Southern symbol for rebellion and discontent in West Florida and later Texas.  It is mentioned in the article, and was influential to civil war songs, literature, and post civil war fiction (Bonnie Blue Butler).  It clearly belongs in the category of "Other Flags". 155.84.57.253 17:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think it ever really was used to represent "the Confederacy" as a whole. As you say, certainly not in any official way.  It was mainly used before the Confederacy was even created, in the early months of 1861.  Its usage as a Southern symbol in West Florida, and influence on Texas and California also has nothing to do with the Confederacy.  Since its usage predates the Civil War, and it has its own article, I don't see any need to duplicate all that info on this page.  The current mention with a link should be enough. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm no expert on this, but what I read at GA flag indicates that it was more of a state flag showing their intention to seceede. Bubba73 (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. We should add a link to that site to this page. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Even in Canada, we know that the Bonnie Blue Flag was important to the secessionist movement and the early days of the Confederacy. A picture of it really should be included. WolframSiever 18:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * But the name of the article isn't "Flags used by sucessionists", or "Flags used in the South", it is "Flags of the Confederate States of America". And this just isn't one.  --JW1805 18:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Why Was the Image of the 3rd National Flag Reverted?
In October I replaced the image of the 3rd national flag with one that had the dimensions as laid out in the 1865 flag law. Sometime in the past week this image was reverted to the earlier image which has the wrong dimensions. Why was this done? Nicholas F 01:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Request Verification
I would like some information of affirm the following statement made in the article;

Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent]

I'm not sure on this and I think there should be some verification to this.
 * Likewise. It was recently re-added in this form:
 * To many in the US South it is simply a symbol of their heritage and pride in their ancestors who held out during years of war under terrible odds and sacrifice. Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent], or of the Jim Crow laws established by the US Congress enforcing racial segregation in the Southern States for almost a century later. 
 * We don't know what "many" think, nor do we know what they don't know. -Will Beback 01:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * That may be talking about the Corwin amendment. But the whole "not knowning... making it permanent" section is completely unnecessary and irrelevant to the topic.  --JW1805 (Talk) 00:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

POV
This article is rank with POV content and in need of a major overhaul IMhO. - Plasticbadge 06:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Origin
Is there any additional information regarding the creation of the saltire style Confederate Battle Flag? Possibilities for the inspiration behind the saltire design include the Flag of Scotland, the Irish Saint Patrick's Flag, and the Spanish Cross of Burgundy Flag. Thanks! --Dulcimerist 00:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There's an in-depth description of its creation, intial rejection and ultimate success, and factors in the design and so on, in the book: Coski, John M. "The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem". 2005.  Unfortunately I had it checked out of the library and no longer have it at hand.  Good source for this info though.  William Porcher Miles was the main guy behind the design, if I recall correctly.  I can't quite remember, but I think his initial design had the cross upright rather than diagonal. Pfly 01:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It may have initially been designed to go upright rather than diagonal? Grab that book again, as that information would be awesome in this article!  That would be something that most people wouldn't know... --Dulcimerist 05:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well you inspired me to do just that! I checked the book out from the library today and edited some pages with info from it.  It seems the nitty-gritty details about the flag's origin are a bit more complex than can be described briefly.  I will try to return and improve the texts I entered on various pages.  Was in a bit of a hurry and not writing as well as I could.  Plus I am fairly ignorant of heraldry and flag-terminology.  But, thanks for the inspiration.  This Coski book on the Confederate flag seems quite well researched, with footnotes citing seemingly obscure primary sources like the archived letters of Civil War people stored in government archives.  Perhaps the best researched book on the confederate flag.  The bulk of the book is on the flag's changing meaning and use since the Civil War, with only the first chapter or two on the flag's creation and use back in the day.  Interesting book. Pfly 08:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I look forward to the cleaning up of the entry here and there, and might work on it a bit when I've got time.  Heraldry is quite fun, although I'm only familiar with heraldic crosses of nearly 200 designs.  (I'm a nerd who specializes.)  --Dulcimerist 09:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

14 Stars?!?
Why does the new image of the Stars and Bars have 14 stars? This is certainly a mistake. The Flags of the World site claims that the most common version (41% of those surviving) have 11 stars. This is the version that should be illustrated. Nicholas F 00:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for reducing the number of stars to 13, but I still believe it would be better to illustrate either the first version (7 stars) or the most common version (11 stars) rather than the extremely rare 13 star version. Also, looking a photos of surviving versions as well as contemporary prints, the diameter of the circle is too large in relation to the canton.  And if I may be permitted one additional nit to pick on, for consistency it would be better if the shades matched those of the 2nd and 3rd national flags illustrated on the page.  Nicholas F 01:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Blood-Stained or Blood-Dipped Banner?
The text for the 3rd National Flag states "It was sometimes called the blood-stained or blood-dipped banner." I believe this to be an anachronism. Can anyone provide a citation for this? The flag was adopted on March 4, 1865. Lee surrendered on April 9 of the same year. Very few people would have even seen the flag in that month's time, making very unlikelty for it to have received a popular nickname. Further, I doubt that the Confederates would have referred to their national flag with the pejorative "blood-stained". These names are more likely to be modern creations. Nicholas F 01:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Enemy of the United States
I thought the United States won the civil war agains the Confederacy. Why would any American consider flying flags of a defeated enemy? --Kvuo 04:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Kvuo, I think that there are many reasons for flying the Confederate Battle flag (please make sure you know the difference, or knowledgable people in the South will rip you a new one). Admittedly, some are racist and fly it to intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. They use it as a symbol by which to rally around and a notion that those were the "good old days." Others fly it because they are proud to be from the South. Not all of the ideals that the Confederacy stood for were bad, the foremost being states rights, so some people view their pride in the good things that it stands for (it must also be taken into account that the US flag also flew over slave states, but no reasonable person protests those who use it. The reason is that the US changed. IMHO so did the South. We do not believe is slavery nor do we believe it should be reinstated. Lumping us with those who are racists can be tenuous at best.). — BQZip01 —  talk 05:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * To consider that 'States Rights' is a valid ideal discounts the fact that the slave-holder states had enacted federal law FORCING 'free soil' states to return runaway slaves; just more 'Lost Cause' BS. The more you know, the faster all the secondary 'issues' fall away to reveal the singular aim of secession -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_of_1850 Chachap (talk) 09:35, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Georgia Flag
The Georgia flag still incorporates a design extremely similar to the Stars and Bars.

Comparison:

— BQZip01 — talk 16:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Spurrier
I removed the last line about Steve Spurrier and the SC flag issue. In the article cited, he did not say that the flag hurt his recruiting of players. In fact, he specifically said (though not in the cited article) that it did NOT have an effect.Reeeems 17:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Georgiaflags.jpg
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"most Southerners were descendants of the Ulster migrations"
An interesting claim - citation / reference on this? --mgaved 08:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

13 Stars?!?

 * I think something is messed up in the article. It says that the 13 stars on the battle flag represent the 11 states with Kentucky and Missouri.  It links to a rather dubious looking site confirming this.     I was always told that the 13 stars represented the original 13 colonies -- as the confederates saw themselves as the "real" successors to the founding fathers.  If the bit about Kentucky and Missouri were true, than why wouldn't the flag also incorporate Maryland or Delaware for a total of 15 stars -- as they were also "occupied".   I really think this section in the article needs better documentation.

The Coski book has several statements about star representing states of the Confederacy, with the number reaching 13 when the secessionist factions of Missouri and Kentucky joined in late 1861. Maryland and Delaware never "joined" in this sense, although one of the earliest designs of what became the battle flag had 15 stars. I'll add the ref and, if the website referenced is really dubious, the Coski ref can replace it.. unfortunately references to books are not quite as easy to check as websites, but on the other hand, books tend to stick around longer than websites. :) If I have the time I'll try to clean up the references in general. Pfly 04:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Confederate Battle Flag should have its own article
Seems to me the controversy over it and its unique history both during and well after the Civil War make it noteworthy enough, and unique enough from general flags of the Confederacy, to warrant its own article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.106.28 (talk) 23:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Superfluous Edit
Since it is established in previous content of the article that the battle flag is known to be displayed at many locations by many groups with varying meanings and reasons attributed to its being displayed, it is unreasonable to remove text that establishes a connection with extremist or hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.KDACAPELLA 23:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Labeling any edit as "superfluous" is a bit much IMHO. The KKK certainly uses it, but is only one of several groups that use it. I'm trying not to use language that seems to exclude other groups. See what I put in just a few moments ago. "Extremist" is inaccurate because it includes groups like the ALF and ELF, which don't use the symbol. — BQZip01 —  talk 00:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

South Carolina Sovereignty Flag
Is it true that the "Southern Cross" (the Confederate most widespread battle flag) was based on the so-called South Caroline Sovereignty Flag, flown by Seccessionists in 1860?
 * It doesn't appear to be a very big stretch from the photo shown here. Sf46 (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering those "photos" are made in Paint, I'm going to err on the side of caution on this. Maybe someone should email the Museum of the Confederacy; after all, they DO have the largest collection of Confederate flags (and have a rather large picture book about the collection). SiberioS (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the Coski book it is true. I hadn't seen a picture of the flag though. But it looks pretty much like what Coski describes. Pfly (talk) 04:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The Battle Flag in Eastern Europe and Berlin
I have read in various places that the battle flag was flown in various parts of eastern Europe when the Soviets withdrew. Does anyone know where I can find confirmed sources of that? Perhaps images or video. ThorsMitersaw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.231.215.4 (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't know about that but it's also supposedly been used in Africa by black Africans who were revolting against corrupt post-colonial governments. Sf46 (talk) 17:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt both. After all, wouldn't you use your own national flag? And most African secessionist and rebel groups use their own flags (of which there is a wide variety of). The only websites that mention such a claim are neo-confederate websites, and they don't seem to show any photos or video either SiberioS (talk) 01:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's a picture of the Battle Flag in Berlin. 

Some sections biased
Generally a good article. I was, however, rather put off by the Georgia post-war flag section. The previous author linked the entire phrase "a large part of Georgia's electorate" to the article "Racists". Wow. That's probably one of the most biased, POV, and ridiculous links I've ever come across.

Anyway, I removed the link, but kept the sentence (since it did, in fact, upset quite a few Georgians). If anyone disagrees, please reply. I have a lot to offer on that particular point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theboondocksaint (talk • contribs) 04:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Saltire vs St Andrew's cross
The section on the Battle Flag presently contains the following:

''Although Miles described his flag as a heraldic saltire, it had been thought to be erroneously described since the latter part of the 19th century as a cross, specifically a Saint Andrew's Cross. [...] ''Specifically, the St. Andrew's Cross is a white saltire on a blue field, as in the national flag of Scotland. The St. Patrick's Cross, as in the state flag of Alabama, is a red saltire on a white field. The Army of Northern Virginia battle flag has a blue saltire on a red field and is, therefore, neither the St. Andrew's nor the St. Patrick's Cross but a saltire as in the proposed but unadopted Second National flag.''

All this is incorrect as a saltire and a St Andrew's cross are exactly the same thing and can refer to a cross of any tincture, not just the argent on azure of the Flag of Scotland. Opera hat (talk) 16:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I added the first part about Miles insisting that it was a "heraldic saltire" and not a cross, and that nevertheless it soon came to be called a Saint Andrew's Cross anyway. The rest, with mentions of Scotland, Alabama, etc, sounds rather like original research to me, perhaps a citation needed? Pfly (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Category
I'm on the fence about adding this article to Category:Military flags of the United States. Not being part of the United States of America, it wouldn't be really all that appropriate, but it also seems appropriate in the sense that it is an important part of American history. Any thoughts? ''' bahamut0013 ♠  ♣  23:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Depends. If you assume the Confederacy was its own nation, then the flags it used in the military would not be U.S. flags. If the Confederacy did not exist as a country, then the flags are from rebellious sections still part of the whole. (I hated writing that one, I'm a Southern boy!) How do other categories of nations deal with flags used in their civil wars? How are the flags of Ireland classified? We should strive to be consistent with our labeling. Kresock (talk) 01:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it was used in a military context by parts of what was and still is the United States. In that sense it seems appropriate. On the other hand, everything about the confederate flag is controversial! Pfly (talk) 07:11, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That, and elements of all of the Confederate flags can be found in many forms today, in and out of the military. You asked about Ireland, and that issue is sufficiently muddled that we probably shouldn't look there for advice. For the most part, pages seem to be included in the current status if there isn't a historical category for that topic. If I had to lean one way or the other, I would say that we could forgo political correctness and add it; I doubt too many people will be confused and think that the categoric inclusion meant that the Confederate states were a compnent of the US. ''' bahamut0013 ♠  ♣  22:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Use in WWII
Does anybody have a reference to the Confederate Flags use during WWII? Many southern units adopted it as their unofficial flag and it was flown over Okinawa for a short time by Marines. I wanted to add this information, but I've been unable to comeup with any suitable references. Jim Steele (talk) 13:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I have a reference for you! 'The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem' by John M. Coski, 2005. pg 91.

and, as a lark, one Marine Colonel William O. Bryce, as a joke formed a short lived unit named Confederate Forces in the Solomon Islands (CONFORSOLS). ibid, pg 92 - 93.

Thinkvoyager

Use by Rockabilly fans
I made a minor but important edit. The comment "Also rockabilly fans hold the Confederate flag as their emblem." is a generalization that is not supported by any evidence I can find. Neither the Rockabilly page, nor the Rockabilly Hall of Fame reference the flag. I know that some of Rockabilly fans do use it, and I have edited it to reflect this. I am a Rockabilly fan and do "use it as my emblem" nor to many of the fans in my experience. Perhaps this is personal research but the statement is still an unsupported generalization. Wildwose (talk) 15:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

SCV protest of use of Confederate Flag by hate groups
As I recall, documentation* for the above had been provided (by another Wikipedian) as requested on at least two prior occasions. In any event, the SPLC verifies the above, and as we all know, the SPLC is certainly not a defender of the SCV -- to the contrary, the SPLC is perhaps the chief antagonist against the SCV. *SPLC article verifying the above See also *York Daily Record article verifying the above. --Fix Bayonets! 12:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not suitable for the article since I have no documentation, but I was adjutant of the Sterling Price Camp in St Louis when we did the same thing -- and you are exactly right on the SPLC. 138.162.128.55 (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Naval jack or ensign?
No proper command of English. When you say "jack", are you referring to the bow secondary flag (the "jack") or to the main poop flag (that is, what the British call "ensign")? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know whether the 1863 naval ensign used the dark blue saltire of the battle flag or the light blue of the naval jack? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.160.250.253 (talk) 14:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Links to Related Articles on Other Flags
Flags of the Confederate States of America

There's been some misunderstanding about the "See also" links that I've added and modified in the article on the Flags of the Confederate States of America. Since the topic of the article is flags of a political entity against which the United States was engaged in war, links to articles on other flags (especially war flags) representing other political entities against which the US was subsequently engaged in war will be of interest to readers of the article. Given the different nature of the Korean and Vietnam Wars (which were themselves primarily civil wars) and the nature of US involvment in them, I didn't include links to articles on those flags, but if anyone can think of any others, the addition of links to articles on analagous flags would be helpful to the reader. A second, close connection will be of interest to readers of this article: an article on flags of a political entity against which the United States was engaged in war, flags which then after the war carried (in the minds of some) racial overtones, and the display of which is (rightly or wrongly) controversial in contemporary society, but nevertheless employed by musicians (especially of a certain genre) and in popular culture (e.g., to signal a character who is supposed to be of a particular stereotype). Given all of these extremely close parallels, a link to the article on the Flag of Nazi Germany is indeed related and anyone interested in either the military, racial, or societal aspects of the flags of the Confederacy will be interested in that article as well. I know there's a stigma around both flags in both countries, but in keeping with Wikipedia's NPOV, we needn't shy away from the legitimate sociological and historical comparison that readers of the article will expect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.200.60 (talk) 19:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Several editors have removed you additions. Continuing to re-add these without a consensus may lead to your being blocked under the Three-revert rule.
 * This article is not about "a political entity against which the United States was engaged in war", but specifically about the Flags of the CSA, and the political controversy they have generated in the 20th century. I note that you have only included flags of fascist nations which the US has fought. The Union Flag in particular has caused much controversy inb the lands which the UK has occupied, and is even called "the butcher's apron" by many, yet this was left out. Teh flags of France, the Netherlands, the Republic of South Africa, and others that the US has not fought directly have also been controversial symbols of racist oppression, yet these were also left out. This leaves the appearance that there is a specific attempt to link the CSA's flags with that of Facism in general, or the Nazis in particular, and this is highly offensive to many. If their is a specific article on controversial flags in general (I don't know if there is one), then that would be appropriate. However, we can't list every flag that has generated racial controversy here, as the list would be far too long. - BilCat (talk) 19:25, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If I may jump in, it seems to me that the article is very much about flags of the CSA - the very existence of which was inextricably linked to the American Civil War. And actually, they didn't only include flags of fascist nations, they also included the Reichskriegsflagge, persumably since the US fought Germany in WWI. And the Grand Union Flag *is* included as a link. I suppose the reason the flags of all the nations that the US has not fought directly but that have been controversial symbols of racist oppression were left out is because the US didn't fight them directly. I'm sure it is offensive to many that the Battle Flag of the Confederacy is, like the flag of Nazi Germany, used (by some) as a symbol of racism, controversial in their respective societies, and has become a banner for select musical styles (Country Western singers, as mentioned in the article, and Punk, respectively), but offense at true and accurate statements does not warrant censure on Wikipedia. There are Wiki artilces on the Armenian Genocide (yes, it really happened, sorry Ottoman Turks) and on Torture and the United States (sorry my fellow Americans, it really did take place). It is unacceptable for individuals to remove (links to related) content simply because they object to it or find it highly offensive based on their geographical location. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.91.63.143 (talk) 12:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "If I may jump in," ...sure, socks usually come in pairs. The "See also" section is about pertinent links to the subject (not Flags, not Nazis). Please see WP:SEE ALSO. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 13:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That they do! Anyway, the consensus here is clearly against the inclusin of the Nazi/German links as not relevant. - BilCat (talk) 15:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Controversy (redux)
The controversy section does a lot to explain why the (battle) flag should not be seen as offensive, while giving a nod or two as to why it should. The fact is that most people find it either offensive or discomfiting. Many Southerners, whites included, recognize it as a symbol of racism. I don't think that we should whitewash its association with segregation, racism, and slavery, or the fact that slavery played a large if not principal role in secession (see the declarations of secession, all (I think) of which point significantly to slavery as a causus belli). In fact, nearly every paragraph of the controversy section points to why it should *not* be viewed as controversial (symbol of Southern heritage, culture, etc.). African-American, Northern, and anti-Confederate white Southern perspectives are notably and lamentably absent. --71.235.239.166 (talk) 07:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Stop This Maddness! Nobody Cares Anymore!
I think people should let go of the past and look foward to the future. The slaves are free, the war has been over for a century. What more does this country needs right now. We banned the Swastika for a good reason and that was six decades ago when it came in being.

User:Harbingeur —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.178.228 (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Those who forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.Sf46 (talk) 00:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ummm... if you're talking about the United States of America, the swastika is not banned, just unpopular. Secondly, even the most odious part of CSA culture, slavery, does not come even close to the mass murders and tortures of the Third Reich. All the other principles of the Confederacy (states' rights, etc.) are issues that reasonable and reputable people can disagree on.RoastDack (talk) 15:38, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Current Use in Northern States
I notice the current usage discussion in this article deals mostly with usage of the flag in the Southern states. I don't know enough to add a whole section, or how to document it, but the CSA battle flag, or more commonly, a picture of it, is often seen in the Northern states as well, and items bearing the CSA BF image are found in many souvenir shops and gas staions. Up here the flag is not so much a slavery or racist symbol, but rather represents concepts ranging from freedom from federal control (a common theme in the West as well as the South) to rebellion against the "establishment" in general, to proudly being a Jeff Foxworthy style redneck.RoastDack (talk) 15:37, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * One often sees it for sale in the North alongside such things as the Jolly Roger, another anti-authority/establishment, at least in modern times. Still, the confederate flag can and sometimes is used for multiple purposes, some contemptible, some honorable, and many neither, in the North as well as in the South. If something about this topic is to be added, I'd suggest not focusing on the North per se, but on the way the usage of the confederate flag changed in the 20th century from mostly "serious" to mostly "frivolous", even kitschy purposes. And this is not limited to the USA either. There's a chapter or two about this in the Coski book. Apparently the Daughters of the Confederacy, or the Sons of Confederate Veterans, I forget which, tried to stop the trend but failed. Pfly (talk) 23:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Organization
I've noticed that the article's main divisions are 'National Flags' and 'Other Flags'. In my opinion it would be better to divide 'Other' into 'War Flags' and 'Secession Flags'. War flags would detail the ANV battle flag (which is mislabeled in the article as 'The Battle Flag of the Confederacy), the Hardee battle flag (which doesn't appear at all in Wikipedia) and the Polk battle flag. 'Secession flags' could detail the Bonnie Blue and various other secession/sovereignty flags. Lewa.27 (talk) 15:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

use in state flags: Add Arkansas ?
as per the article on the State of Arkansas Flag. "Some believe[who?] that the flag bears a resemblance to the Confederate Battle Flag. Though the colors and star pattern are similar, the flag does not have the saltire pattern of the Confederate flag. In addition, the history of the flag clearly shows that it was not considered to honor the Confederacy until the fourth star was added for that specific purpose in 1923."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Arkansas

I would like to suggest adding the state to the list, with the appropriate paragraph quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa (talk • contribs) 05:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As it's uncited speculation with an old who tag, I've removed it from Flag of Arkansas. - BilCat (talk) 05:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

confedrate flag
confedrate flag — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.109.55.75 (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

use in state flags: Add Arkansas ?
--174.109.55.75 (talk) 23:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

as per the article on the State of Arkansas Flag. "Some believe[who?] that the flag bears a resemblance to the Confederate Battle Flag. Though the colors and star pattern are similar, the flag does not have the saltire pattern of the Confederate flag. In addition, the history of the flag clearly shows that it was not considered to honor the Confederacy until the fourth star was added for that specific purpose in 1923."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Arkansas

I would like to suggest adding the state to the list, with the appropriate paragraph quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa (talk • contribs) 05:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

As it's uncited speculation with an old tag, I've removed it from Flag of Arkansas. - BilCat (talk) 05:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

changed "Controversy" section, paragraph 1
I removed the final sentence, concerning the flag becoming racially charged during the Civil Rights movement, on the grounds that the flag has always been a racially charged symbol in the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zedweiller (talk • contribs) 03:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Removing the whole sentence removes key info. Reword it if necessary. - BilCat (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

The Forgotten Confederate Flags (State Flags)
Hey Y'ALL forgot to mention the other Confederate Flags, you know state flags like the Virginia Flag and North Carolina Flag? They're both Confederate Flags and were used as Confederate Battle Flags. When the Southern States began joining the Confederacy their love for more State Sovereignty led them to create official State Flags. Virginia did not adopt an official flag until after it had seceded from the Union in 1861. The Flag of the Commonwealth was adopted on April 30, 1861 almost two weeks after Virginia voted, on April 17, 1861, to repeal its 1788 ratification of the Constitution of the United States.

The Maryland state flag features the red and white Botany cross; a specific design which was used by Maryland Confederate units and was later incorporated into the current flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.119.165 (talk) 06:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

THE VIRGINIA FLAG AND OTHERS ARE CONFEDERATE FLAGS TOO!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.105 (talk) 23:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The Maryland (and Howard County Maryland) flags were both flown over southern units in battle. Fact: Marylanders wearing red and white in 1861-1865 would be jailed without trial by the occupying yankees. I proudly fly a Maryland flag and openly explain its TRUE meaning. In fact I chuckle when the most liberal school preaches hate for their own heritage yet fly 2 yes thats 2 rebel flags --MarylandSonOfTheSouth (talk) 18:31, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Confederate flag flown at funeral home in Chicago
Camp Douglas Modern day: "Today, condominiums fill most of the site where Camp Douglas stood. For many years, a local funeral home built on the site maintained prisoner records and a Confederate flag at half-staff. The business closed December 31, 2007."

I changed the link to HighBeam (membership required) when the original went dead. Today I found a no-membership-required archive of the original and backed it up at WebCite. The Civil War Talk Forum posting has an image of a battle flag that appears similar to the Second Confederate Naval Ensign, with red and blue colors reversed, that is likely the poster's own and not related to the story, the relevant paragraph of which reads: The African-American-owned business is also part of another unique chapter in local history. It sits on land that was once Camp Douglas, a Civil War camp used to house Confederate prisoners of war. About 6,000 Confederates died from disease and exposure there – and they are memorialized on the Heritage Memorial Wall outside the funeral home. It includes a Confederate flag flown at half-staff. --Pawyilee (talk) 08:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC) Edit to clarify flag --Pawyilee (talk) 09:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Modern usage
Hi everyone, I was wondering if some of you more knowledgeable folks could add to the main article and discuss in greater length/detail the usage of the Confederate Flag(s). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.132.53.178 (talk) 05:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Georgia’s flag
While it is true that Georgia’s flag is based on the confederate flag, it is also true that Georgia’s flag hasn’t had the classic confederate Saltire since 2001. The wording of the article comes off as if someone hasn’t edited the article for over a decade, so I will update it. Samboy (talk) 10:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

surviving naval jack
The article mentions, quote, "One 7-star [naval] jack still exists today...." If anyone knows where it is located, can they please add this information? Elsquared (talk) 03:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Seven years later, and no additional information on this? The only other mention I've found is at: http://confederateflags.org/navy/fotcnavy61/.  The information - but no supporting evidence - comes from someone named Devereaux Cannon.  The attributed link in the wiki article mentions nothing about this surviving flag, nor does the wiki article on CSS Atlanta. Elsquared (talk) 06:13, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

LL-Cool-J and BBQ
I removed some content (editing anonymously at the time) from the controversy section of the page that was pretty poorly written and poorly sourced. There was a paragraph from a pastor who was referred to as "respected", without saying who supposedly respects him, that had been posted to a web page for a barbecue restaurant. I've never heard of the guy, and I can't find anything about him except the one sermon, so he doesn't seem like an actually notable voice. And there was another single-sentence paragraph that cryptically said that "attributed" sources had discounted the interpretation of Confederate flags as racist, but this turned out to be LL-Cool-J in a song. So I think the content should be deleted both for being needlessly obfuscated and of little actual credibility. I looked at the history, and noticed that there have been a couple of edits both ways, so I figured I'd try to start some discussion to see if we can't build a consensus. Rexlunae (talk) 09:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An additional effort to add the material back, again without discussion, has been reverted.  The editor exchanged one bad source (the L L Cool J) for another (an I-Report on CNN by a viewer).  The editor (CountryboyCS) has made his case worse by using the racist phrase "colored people" to make his case. As for Maurice's BBQ blog, the place is famous for flying the Confederate Flag and selling books that are actually pro-slavery. CountryboyCS has a seriously flawed agenda in edit warring this issue. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

REALLY????? Racist Phrase? I assume you've written your congressman and demand the racist colored people at the NAACP change the name of their organization? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:F481:BA00:F531:C08A:32EA:F6B7 (talk) 02:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Counting myself, four editors have now reverted this material. Obviously there is no consensus for this material. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Controversy
Why is the Battle flag considered more controversial than the Stars and Bars? How is the Stars and Bars "not offensive"? Emperor001 (talk) 17:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That depends on how one views the CSA. If one views the CSA itself as having existed solely to support slavery and racial oppression, then yes, all of its flags would be seen as controversial. However, that is a narrow viewpoint which the historical facts do not support. - BilCat (talk) 19:39, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

In answer to the original question, the "Stars and Bars" flag is generally not held to be offensive for two simple reasons: most people don't know what the hell the "Stars and Bars" is, and the "Stars and Bars" flag has not been appropriated by white-supremacists as a symbol of the good ol' days before America went wrong and let African-Americans vote and actually exercise their Constitutional rights. And yes, the so-called Confederate States of American did, indeed, exist solely to protect the institution of slavery and its future expansion. All other issues that are purported to be the founding principles of the Confederacy invariably lead back to slavery. The supposed devotion to States' Rights was actually quite situational, as no southerners opposed the Fugitive Slave Act, which trampled on State's Rights (in this case, northern states) like no Act before it. The funny thing is, that Confederate leaders before and during the war had no problem admitting that secession was almost entirely about slavery. After the war, of course, when trying to justify treason and the fact that they started the war, they had to rebrand the Confederacy as a response to Northern aggression or a defense of genteel agrarian values against a dehumanizing industrial colossus. In that, they seem to have done a pretty good job, to the detriment of truth.--172.190.30.2 (talk) 05:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well said, 172.190.30.2! You pretty much hit the nail right on the head. Illegitimate Barrister 19:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Content removed from article page on 03:21, 9 July 2004
There is no support or references given here by whoever made these comments (probably a yankee) about the validity of the Confederate Flag, especially the one commonly accepted by the true Confederates and their descendants. Most of these Flags were never seen by or displayed by true Confederates, except the latter, and we certainly were not on ships. Its amazing how many ship flags were found in Southerners attics... -- 12.36.152.153 (moved from article page to here by John Owens (talk) 03:22, 2004 Jul 9 (UTC)

Also, that "bonnie blue" flag didn't symbolize The Confederacy as a whole, but the independent states before they united. The logic was that if 20 or so stars symbolized 20 or so states united, then one star symbolized one star staning alone.

I'm from Georgia and I've never heard of that last flag being used as a naval flag. I have no idea why someone would think that...
 * What was originally designed The Naval Jack was used at times on land such as by the army of Tennessee. There were in fact many local/regiment battle flags in addition to the general square saltire version.  The popularity of the saltire flag being used almost exclusively by veteren groups started as far back as the 1880s in preference to what were seen as either "political" or local flags.  Almost inevitably to be consistent with most other flags, there was a preference established for a rectangular version and it is no wonder that more flags of this type are now found in attics.  However, to suggest the wide use of the flag civicly and among land based forces at the time of the civil war is somewhat anachronistic and it remains historically correct to refer to it as a naval jack.  Dainamo 11:46, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Reflecting the battle flag's controversial perceptions
I've tried twice now to insert the following block of text under the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section. It has been twice removed.

I can't find the Clarion Ledger hit any longer, so have removed that reference. The Cooper/Knotts paper is located at http://paws.wcu.edu/ccooper/beyonddixie.pdf.

To continue to deny that a growing number of African-Americans find the flag offensive, or to deny that it was-- and continues to be-- used as a symbol of white segregation-- fairly or not-- is to deny current history, and not in keeping with the open and accurate philosophy of Wikipedia.

I ask that this text be reinserted in the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section.

"More recent studies, however, show changing attitudes toward the Confederate battle flag, particularly among blacks-- perhaps due to greater awareness of the issue stemming from legislative battles regarding the flag's official use in Georgia, Mississippi, and South Carolina. In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of U.S. African-Americans favored removal of the flag from the South Carolina Capitol building [Cooper & Knotts, 2005]. As battle lines over the use of the flag have (again) hardened, the NAACP and many civil rights groups have attacked the flag. The NAACP maintains an official boycott of South Carolina, citing its continued use of the battle flag on its Statehouse grounds."

Use of Flags by K.K.K. Historically Not Limited to C.S.A. Flag
I noticed the comments of Scott regarding the Klan's use of the Stars and Stripes. Those interested should view the following:

http://www.genealogyimagesofhistory.com/images2/William%20Joseph%20Simmons.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Stone Mountain, GA, circa 1921

http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/upload/thumb/3/3c/300px-Kkklan.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, 1922 (30,000 members from Chicago and northern Illinois present).

http://www.agpix.com/catalog/AGPix_curtteich/large/AGPix_curtteich_0014_Lg.jpg Ku Klux Klan, Mansfield, Ohio, early 1920s

http://www.ourbaytown.com/images1/klan.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Goose Creek, Texas, circa 1921-23

http://hip.cgu.edu/liss/epstein/KKK2.jpg Ku Klux Klan meeting (women’s auxiliary), New Castle, Indiana, 1923

http://www.liu.edu/cwis/CWP/library/african/west/kkk.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1923

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Slave_Trade/images/kkk.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally (place unknown, circa pre-1920s)

http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Boulder, Colorado, 1925

http://www.ethnociel.qc.ca/Images%20ethnociel/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1925.

http://static.flickr.com/13/18096460_7f0c71bd16.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Montiplier, Vermont, 1927

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Image:Kkk1928.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1928.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/jhs/Images/KKKhouse.jpg (NOTE THE UNION JACK!) Ku Klux Klan meeting, Vancouver, B.C. Oct. 30th, 1935.

http://www.historyworksohio.org/images/thumbnails/AL02904.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Ohio (circa pre-1945)

http://images.indianahistory.org/cgi-bin/thumbnail.exe?CISOROOT=/V0002&CISOPTR=3 Ku Klux Klan meeting, Godfrey Klan No. 93, Hartford City, Indiana (circa pre-1945)

http://www.atlantahighered.org/civilrights/gallery/02.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Atlanta, GA (circa 1940-1946)

and see:

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm very large collection

http://www.rulen.com/kkk/ another large collection

and see also:

http://media.bestprices.com/content/isbn/69/1567666469.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0822307723.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0195098366.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

http://metascholar.org/MOSC/images/essays/KuKluxKismetcoverl.gif

04:22; 2 September 2006; Fix Bayonets!

Legal protection
Article mentions legal protection equivalent to US national flag in several southern states. Does this supercede US Flag Code (such as allowing the SC confederate flag to fly above the US national flag which is at half staff?) Or would someone be justified in taking the SC confederate flag down to comply with federal law? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.38.103 (talk) 21:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know if the Confederate flag is higher than the US flag at the SC state house when the US flag is at half staff. The US flag and the SC state flag are on a pole on top of the capital building whereas the Confederate flag is on a pole on the ground so I imagine that the Confederate flag is still lower. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 22:29, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

South Carolina flag
Just to explain, I cut South Carolina from the controversy section because the issue with SC wasn't that the state flag was changed during the 1960s but that the government started flying the Confederate banner alongside the U.S. national and SC state flags above the statehouse. The NAACP (and other) boycott persuaded the state to move the flag from above the statehouse; the Palmetto banner was not redesigned in 2000.

The removed text in question:
 * South Carolina incorporated the Confederate Battle Flag into the state flag in 1962. Due to a boycott by the NAACP and related organizations, the state legislature chose to redesign the flag in 2000.

Carter 16:42, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That is strange! Everything I read seriously implied (or outright stated) that the SC flag had a Confederate emblem. This must be a fairly widespread misconception. Either that, or the media is just trying to create more controversy than the issue merits. Here is an article from 7 Nov 2004: Kentucky Lexington-Herald Leader A quote from the article: "The NCAA does not allow schools in states that have Confederate symbols on their flags -- only Mississippi and South Carolina -- to host events..." I was fooled! Odd indeed. --L.D. Bear 01:39, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think I can explain this. In recent years, some entities have created a flag that blends the CSA Naval Jack and the SC/NC flags. See here for a picture: and. These flags are unofficial and has no connection with the NC/SC Governments. For more, see FOTW. If you really want one, has plenty of products with the flags on them. - Hoshie/Crat 05:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that it should still be in the section. Something along the lines of stating how, although the design is not represented in the official state flag, the Confederate Flag is often displayed alongside the state flag.--206.21.168.100 (talk) 21:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The Flag of South Carolina. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:07, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Add 'CSA' to parenthetical "other names" part
In the first paragraph in the parenthetical, (the "Confederate States" or the "Confederacy"), should probably add "CSA" as the common abbreviation, right? I see it written this way at many online, history websites, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.179.86 (talk) 03:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

The exact spot where Jefferson Davis was sworn in as the first President of the Confederate States of America is marked by a six-pointed brass star with only "C.S.A.," his name and the date--the name, confederate states of america is not spelled out. The star is located at the top of the steps on the west side, looking down Dexter Avenue toward downtown, Montgomery, Alabama. Downhill, just one block away is the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church, which is notable as the church pastored by Martin Luther King, Jr. in the 1960s.

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2015
The reference in the section or the third flag should indicate the St. Andrews Cross [X], not the St. George Cross [+].

Ronwwallace (talk) 00:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done I checked the reference (pg 19), and it does indeed say St Andrew's Cross, not St George's Cross as you have pointed out. Stickee (talk) 04:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit request 6/24/2015?
In the "Retailer bans" section: "... Walmart announced that it would no longer sell items with the Confederate flag on them,[63] In a statement to the press..." -- that comma after "them" should be a period. Also, "... Sears (who also operate Kmart)" should probably instead read "... Sears (which also operates Kmart)". Thanks. 71.204.84.204 (talk) 02:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done. Thank you. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Split - Confederate Flag
I would propose that we split off the section on the "Confederate Flag" to its own article given how big that section is getting and how much that flag has its own history and issues. Remember (talk) 17:10, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ See Modern display of the Confederate flag. VQuakr (talk) 06:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2015
Bar at right shows the top flag as "fourth" flag of the Confederacy, but should read "first" flag.

Jpw@birdus.com (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Read carefully: the article says it's the "fourth variant of the first Confederate National Flag". Stickee (talk) 23:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC) Stickee (talk) 23:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Read the caption: it misleadingly says "fourth flag". I was very confused.  I am changing it to agree with the text. Zaslav (talk) 23:44, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Correction: I must have misread the caption, don't know why.  I will still change it to put "first" first and "fourth" second. Zaslav (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Reference proper historical names
Before today's edit it was obvious the rectangular Northern Virginia Battle Flag and the Second Confederate Navy Jack and "the Confederate flag" was being tossed around erroneously. I may have fixed it a little bit but still the article is messy or has poor grammar.

"The Confederate Flag" has become a defacto name for the Second Confederate Navy Jack however "error" i recommend only be referenced in it's section. "The Confederate Flag" should not be used elsewhere to discuss the politically controversial rectangular Second Confederate Navy Jack and it's defacto adoption by the south, racist organizations, and so on. The square similar variant (the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia) should not be confused with "The confederate flag" or the Second Confederate navy jack unless SPECIFICALLY intended to be referenced as such (if that makes sense to do???).

A separate article or section could discuss current issues however probably not the intent of this wiki (just "these are the flags").

We shouldn't try and rewrite history here.

I think the Daughters of the Confederacy salute the 7 Star Confederate NATIONAL flag. I tried looking at the link referenced but it was broken:

http://www.hqudc.org/info/flag_code.pdf

A video showed the flag above (7 Star) on all of the confederate solder graves so... it think my edit is accurate:

http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/United-Daughters-of-the-Confederacy-Honor-Fallen-Soldiers-260548951.html

I think the sections on the Second Confederate navy jack (aka The Confederate Flag, Rebel Flag and...) is confusing and we shouldn't perpetuate this historically inaccurate reference. By all means, a southern racism, state capitol display section note could be made but probably belongs in another wiki????Barfbag666 (talk) 00:10, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Retailer bans
I've added the recent annoucements from Walmart and others that they will be removing Confederate flag (i.e. "Dixie flag") items from sale. This is a major development. -- The Anome (talk) 06:34, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A Walmart in Slidell, Louisiana rejected a Confederate flag cake request, which is why this guy ordered an "ISIS Battle Cake". Funny story... &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 17:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Should be on the modern uses page. This is about the flags as they pertain to the C.S. and the ACW. – Illegitimate Barrister, 20:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Good evidence that Second National Flag ("Stainless Banner") designed at suggestion of General Beauregard
“Charleston, S.C., April 24, 1863.

To Hon. C. J. Villere [Confederate House of Representatives]:

Why change our battle flag, consecrated by the best blood of our country on so many battle fields? A good design for the national flag would be the present battle flag as a Union Jack, and the rest all white or all blue.

G. T. Beauregard.”

Charleston Mercury, May 7, 1863 & Augusta Chronicle, May 8, 1863

“Richmond, Saturday, May 2 ….Gen Beauregard suggested the flag just adopted, or else a field of blue in place of the white.”

Charleston Mercury ("Letter from Richmond"), May 5, 1863, p. 1, c. 1

BorderRuffian (talk) 00:38, 29 August 2015 (UTC)BorderRuffian

There is no evidence that William T. Thompson ever submitted a design for a flag or contacted a member of the Confederate Congress with his idea. And there is no evidence he was given credit for its design. The only person that gives Thompson credit is...William T. Thompson.

Members of the Flag and Seal Committee in the Confederate House of Representatives described the white field as representing "purity and truth" and not "white man's flag."

Confederate House of Representatives, May 1, 1863-

Alexander Boteler (VA)- "Mr. Boteler said that borders were unusual on flags, but if the House determined to adopt one, let it be in conformity with the laws of heraldry. Some gentlemen, he observed, smile at this remark, but he would remind them that our flag should not be open to the criticism of the world. The border should occupy one-tenth of the flag. As to the color, that should also have meaning. If we adopted blue, it would be said that our affairs looked blue. The white in the flag signified purity and truth, and the border should be red, to embalm the recollection of those brave men who had shed their blood on the borders of the country in its defence."

Peter W. Gray (TX)- "Mr Gray, of Texas, hoped the House would adopt the flag adopted by the Senate, with the blue bar stricken out. Then we would have the battle flag, of glorious memories, and a white field, signifying purity, truth and freedom. He was opposed to the adoption of a border of blood."

Richmond Whig, May 5, 1863

BorderRuffian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, there's a bit of a problem here. Is there an original source URL for this somewhere on the internet? If not, then it is considered original research and can't be added. Wikipedia information needs to be verifiable, as anybody can make a claim of anything on the internet, accurate or not. Okay, now, as for the quotes. Here's the thing, I ran a Google search of the quotes and found zero results; the only results I found were from some random person's forum post alleging the quotes as true, a Neo-Confederate/Lost Causer blog, and statements that were made under your name on other websites alleging the quotes as true. These do not fit the reliable source criteria of Wikipedia's MOS guidelines. I also ran a Google Books search, which searches print sources and published books stretching back hundreds of years. Also zero results there. I found a quote somewhat like your Beauregard one in this book, but that's about it. The fact that I can't find anything in the way original sources on these quotes somewhere on the internet seems to be suspect, because many source print materials from the Civil War have been digitized and put online as it's one of the most studied subjects in U.S. history; if these quotes were made by delegates in a convention, then the proceedings of the convention should be in print or online, as is the case with others. Or, if they have not been digitized online, then they should be quoted in published books written by authors and historians. Since I can't find anything on this online or in print, it doesn't fit the criteria of "good evidence" as far as Wikipedia is concerned. As it stands now, the reliable published works support the information that is currently on the article. Also, the "purity and truth" statement supposedly made by the Virginian delegate seems to be describing a prototype design featuring a red border, not the all-white finished product that was adopted. As an amateur historian myself with a great interest in the Civil War, I'm genuinely interested curious as to where you got your quotes from. Regards, – Illegitimate Barrister, 20:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

You are right. It was original research on my part. I found the items in a newspaper archive.

What about these- https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Union+Jack%2C+and+the+rest+all+white+or+all+blue%22&=

BorderRuffian —Preceding undated comment added 02:15, 4 March 2016 (UTC)


 * "In the month of April, [1863], there was some question in the Confederate Congress about changing the form and arrangement of their flag, and in reference to it, Beauregard, on the 24th of April, wrote to a friend: 'Why change our battle-flag, consecrated by the best blood of our country on so many battlefields?  A good design for the national flag would be the present battle-flag as Union Jack, and the rest all white or all blue.'  This idea was adopted by Congress, on the 1st of May, and thenceforth the Confederate flag was a white field,—-the length double the width, with the union to be a square of two-thirds the width of the flag, having the ground red, thereon a broad saltire of blue, bordered with white, and emblazoned white mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding in number to the Confederate States."


 * -William Parker Snow, Southern Generals: Who they are, and what they have done (1865), 246.


 * Two more editions of the same work were titled- Southern Generals:  Their Lives and Campaigns (1866) and Lee and his Generals (1867).


 * Beauregard letter to Congressman Villere, April 24, 1863.


 * Historians John Coski (Museum of the Confederacy) and Robert Bonner (Professor of History, Dartmouth) have published books and articles on the Confederate flag. Neither of them give Thompson credit for designing the second national flag.-BorderRuffian  —Preceding undated comment added 19:41, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

---


 * A JSTOR account is needed to access this article. The accounts are free for a limited number of articles.


 * <I>"General Beauregard, whose earlier penchant for practicality had established the precedent for visual distinctiveness on the battlefield, proposed that 'a good design for the national flag would be the present battle-flag as Union Jack, and the rest all white or all blue.' This measure--placing the star-cross design in the upper corner of an otherwise monochromatic flag--would allow the civilian ensign to signal distress while incorporating that image that had been, in Beauregard's words, 'consecrated by the best blood of our country on so many battle-fields.'  The final version of the second national flag, adopted May 1, 1863, did just this:  it set the St. Andrew's Cross of stars in the Union Jack with the rest of the civilian banner entirely white.</I>


 * <I>Not surprisingly, the Confederate editors, poets, and songwriters who had done the most to shape flag culture applied their energies in the spring of 1863 to making sense of this new national flag. The Savannah Morning News had lobbied for the white banner as a sign that 'we are fighting to maintain the Heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race,' predicting that it would 'be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG.'  Yet these racial connotations of whiteness were displaced by the flag's almost immediate association with the death of Stonewall Jackson, whose martyrdom would imbue this banner with the same sort of solemnity that the death of civilian James Jackson in the defense of the Stars and Bars had elicited.  The unveiling of the new flag at Stonewall Jackson's funeral earned the colorless field the nickname of 'the Stainless Banner.'"</I>


 * -Bonner, Robert E., "Flag Culture and the Consolidation of Confederate Nationalism." <I>Journal of Southern History</I>, Vol. 68, No. 2 (May 2002), 318-319.


 * Beauregard <I>proposed</I> and the Savannah Morning News <I>lobbied.</I>
 * Lobbying is far from designing. He doesn't even mention Thompson by name. --.-BorderRuffian  —Preceding undated comment added 02:54, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Reference proper historical names
Before today's edit it was obvious the rectangular Northern Virginia Battle Flag and the Second Confederate Navy Jack and "the Confederate flag" was being tossed around erroneously. I may have fixed it a little bit but still the article is messy or has poor grammar.

"The Confederate Flag" has become a defacto name for the Second Confederate Navy Jack however "error" i recommend only be referenced in it's section. "The Confederate Flag" should not be used elsewhere to discuss the politically controversial rectangular Second Confederate Navy Jack and it's defacto adoption by the south, racist organizations, and so on. The square similar variant (the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia) should not be confused with "The confederate flag" or the Second Confederate navy jack unless SPECIFICALLY intended to be referenced as such (if that makes sense to do???).

A separate article or section could discuss current issues however probably not the intent of this wiki (just "these are the flags").

We shouldn't try and rewrite history here.

I think the Daughters of the Confederacy salute the 7 Star Confederate NATIONAL flag. I tried looking at the link referenced but it was broken:

http://www.hqudc.org/info/flag_code.pdf

A video showed the flag above (7 Star) on all of the confederate solder graves so... it think my edit is accurate:

http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/United-Daughters-of-the-Confederacy-Honor-Fallen-Soldiers-260548951.html

I think the sections on the Second Confederate navy jack (aka The Confederate Flag, Rebel Flag and...) is confusing and we shouldn't perpetuate this historically inaccurate reference. By all means, a southern racism, state capitol display section note could be made but probably belongs in another wiki????Barfbag666 (talk) 00:10, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Retailer bans
I've added the recent annoucements from Walmart and others that they will be removing Confederate flag (i.e. "Dixie flag") items from sale. This is a major development. -- The Anome (talk) 06:34, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A Walmart in Slidell, Louisiana rejected a Confederate flag cake request, which is why this guy ordered an "ISIS Battle Cake". Funny story... &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 17:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Should be on the modern uses page. This is about the flags as they pertain to the C.S. and the ACW. – Illegitimate Barrister, 20:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Good evidence that Second National Flag ("Stainless Banner") designed at suggestion of General Beauregard
“Charleston, S.C., April 24, 1863.

To Hon. C. J. Villere [Confederate House of Representatives]:

Why change our battle flag, consecrated by the best blood of our country on so many battle fields? A good design for the national flag would be the present battle flag as a Union Jack, and the rest all white or all blue.

G. T. Beauregard.”

Charleston Mercury, May 7, 1863 & Augusta Chronicle, May 8, 1863

“Richmond, Saturday, May 2 ….Gen Beauregard suggested the flag just adopted, or else a field of blue in place of the white.”

Charleston Mercury ("Letter from Richmond"), May 5, 1863, p. 1, c. 1

BorderRuffian (talk) 00:38, 29 August 2015 (UTC)BorderRuffian

There is no evidence that William T. Thompson ever submitted a design for a flag or contacted a member of the Confederate Congress with his idea. And there is no evidence he was given credit for its design. The only person that gives Thompson credit is...William T. Thompson.

Members of the Flag and Seal Committee in the Confederate House of Representatives described the white field as representing "purity and truth" and not "white man's flag."

Confederate House of Representatives, May 1, 1863-

Alexander Boteler (VA)- "Mr. Boteler said that borders were unusual on flags, but if the House determined to adopt one, let it be in conformity with the laws of heraldry. Some gentlemen, he observed, smile at this remark, but he would remind them that our flag should not be open to the criticism of the world. The border should occupy one-tenth of the flag. As to the color, that should also have meaning. If we adopted blue, it would be said that our affairs looked blue. The white in the flag signified purity and truth, and the border should be red, to embalm the recollection of those brave men who had shed their blood on the borders of the country in its defence."

Peter W. Gray (TX)- "Mr Gray, of Texas, hoped the House would adopt the flag adopted by the Senate, with the blue bar stricken out. Then we would have the battle flag, of glorious memories, and a white field, signifying purity, truth and freedom. He was opposed to the adoption of a border of blood."

Richmond Whig, May 5, 1863

BorderRuffian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, there's a bit of a problem here. Is there an original source URL for this somewhere on the internet? If not, then it is considered original research and can't be added. Wikipedia information needs to be verifiable, as anybody can make a claim of anything on the internet, accurate or not. Okay, now, as for the quotes. Here's the thing, I ran a Google search of the quotes and found zero results; the only results I found were from some random person's forum post alleging the quotes as true, a Neo-Confederate/Lost Causer blog, and statements that were made under your name on other websites alleging the quotes as true. These do not fit the reliable source criteria of Wikipedia's MOS guidelines. I also ran a Google Books search, which searches print sources and published books stretching back hundreds of years. Also zero results there. I found a quote somewhat like your Beauregard one in this book, but that's about it. The fact that I can't find anything in the way original sources on these quotes somewhere on the internet seems to be suspect, because many source print materials from the Civil War have been digitized and put online as it's one of the most studied subjects in U.S. history; if these quotes were made by delegates in a convention, then the proceedings of the convention should be in print or online, as is the case with others. Or, if they have not been digitized online, then they should be quoted in published books written by authors and historians. Since I can't find anything on this online or in print, it doesn't fit the criteria of "good evidence" as far as Wikipedia is concerned. As it stands now, the reliable published works support the information that is currently on the article. Also, the "purity and truth" statement supposedly made by the Virginian delegate seems to be describing a prototype design featuring a red border, not the all-white finished product that was adopted. As an amateur historian myself with a great interest in the Civil War, I'm genuinely interested curious as to where you got your quotes from. Regards, – Illegitimate Barrister, 20:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

You are right. It was original research on my part. I found the items in a newspaper archive.

What about these- https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Union+Jack%2C+and+the+rest+all+white+or+all+blue%22&=

BorderRuffian —Preceding undated comment added 02:15, 4 March 2016 (UTC)


 * <I>"In the month of April, [1863], there was some question in the Confederate Congress about changing the form and arrangement of their flag, and in reference to it, Beauregard, on the 24th of April, wrote to a friend: 'Why change our battle-flag, consecrated by the best blood of our country on so many battlefields?  A good design for the national flag would be the present battle-flag as Union Jack, and the rest all white or all blue.'  This idea was adopted by Congress, on the 1st of May, and thenceforth the Confederate flag was a white field,—-the length double the width, with the union to be a square of two-thirds the width of the flag, having the ground red, thereon a broad saltire of blue, bordered with white, and emblazoned white mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding in number to the Confederate States."</I>


 * -William Parker Snow, <I>Southern Generals: Who they are, and what they have done</I> (1865), 246.


 * Two more editions of the same work were titled- <I>Southern Generals:  Their Lives and Campaigns</I> (1866) and <I>Lee and his Generals</I> (1867).


 * Beauregard letter to Congressman Villere, April 24, 1863.


 * Historians John Coski (Museum of the Confederacy) and Robert Bonner (Professor of History, Dartmouth) have published books and articles on the Confederate flag. Neither of them give Thompson credit for designing the second national flag.-BorderRuffian  —Preceding undated comment added 19:41, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

---


 * A JSTOR account is needed to access this article. The accounts are free for a limited number of articles.


 * <I>"General Beauregard, whose earlier penchant for practicality had established the precedent for visual distinctiveness on the battlefield, proposed that 'a good design for the national flag would be the present battle-flag as Union Jack, and the rest all white or all blue.' This measure--placing the star-cross design in the upper corner of an otherwise monochromatic flag--would allow the civilian ensign to signal distress while incorporating that image that had been, in Beauregard's words, 'consecrated by the best blood of our country on so many battle-fields.'  The final version of the second national flag, adopted May 1, 1863, did just this:  it set the St. Andrew's Cross of stars in the Union Jack with the rest of the civilian banner entirely white.</I>


 * <I>Not surprisingly, the Confederate editors, poets, and songwriters who had done the most to shape flag culture applied their energies in the spring of 1863 to making sense of this new national flag. The Savannah Morning News had lobbied for the white banner as a sign that 'we are fighting to maintain the Heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race,' predicting that it would 'be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG.'  Yet these racial connotations of whiteness were displaced by the flag's almost immediate association with the death of Stonewall Jackson, whose martyrdom would imbue this banner with the same sort of solemnity that the death of civilian James Jackson in the defense of the Stars and Bars had elicited.  The unveiling of the new flag at Stonewall Jackson's funeral earned the colorless field the nickname of 'the Stainless Banner.'"</I>


 * -Bonner, Robert E., "Flag Culture and the Consolidation of Confederate Nationalism." <I>Journal of Southern History</I>, Vol. 68, No. 2 (May 2002), 318-319.


 * Beauregard <I>proposed</I> and the Savannah Morning News <I>lobbied.</I>
 * Lobbying is far from designing. He doesn't even mention Thompson by name. --.-BorderRuffian  —Preceding undated comment added 02:54, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

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First flag: the "Stars and Bars"
"It was designed by German/Prussian artist Nicola Marschall in Marion, Alabama, and resembled the flag of the Austrian Empire (later Austria-Hungary, now the Republic of Austria), with which Marschall would have been familiar.[14][15]"

This can't, I believe, be true as the flag of the Austrian Empire was black and yellow. I'm not editing this as I don't know how to refute a link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.234.157 (talk) 09:56, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

History of how people felt about the flag
Could this article have a history of how people felt about the flag? For instance, it was a lot different 50+ years ago. As an example, in The Rifleman episode titled "The Prisoner", March 14, 1961 Lucas McCain says of the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia: "This flag stands for the bravery of all the men who fought and died under it; the men who fought against it. All to prove in the end that victor and loser are one and the same - free men in a free country." Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 20:52, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That would need to be contextualized with the fact that, in the 1960s, it was mostly associated with white supremacy, segregation, and Confederate revisionism. --TimothyDexter (talk) 01:13, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Whitewashing the Flag's Racist History
Since Topcat777 did not take kindly to my correction of an edit he had made in December without explanation, while lecturing me for doing the same, I may as well settle this for the record. All the sources for Beauregard's creating the Stainless Banner in Topcat777's edit originate with a letter where he said, "Why change our battle flag, consecrated by the best blood of our country on so many battle fields? A good design for the national flag would be the present battle flag as a Union Jack, and the rest all white or all blue." Here's the problem. The letter was dated April 24th, 1863.

Meanwhile, William Tappan Thompson published an editorial that said, "Our idea is simply to combine the present battle-flag with a pure white standard sheet; our Southern Cross, blue on a red field, to take the place on the white flag that is occupied by the blue union in the old United States flag, or the St. George’s cross in the British flag. As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause." This editorial was dated April 23rd, 1863. https://books.google.com/books?id=vuRCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA415#v=onepage&q&f=false

So, unless we're suggesting Thompson time-traveled forward, stole Beauregard's idea, and then traveled back to lay claim to the design of the Stainless Banner, I see no reason to suggest Beauregard was the original designer of the Stainless Banner and not Thompson. According to "Our Flag: Origin and Progress of the Flag of the United States of America, with an Introductory Account of the Symbols, Standards, Banners and Flags of Ancient and Modern Nations" by George Henry Preble, Thompson had access to Confederate flag committee meetings and did have an assistant named William Ross Postell make a colored drawing of the flag to demonstrate the design's beauty to the Confederate Congress. On May 4th, Thompson wrote the following tutorial outright calling it his design:

"We are pleased to learn by our dispatch from Richmond that congress has had the good taste to adopt for the flag of the confederacy, the battle flag on a plain white field in lieu of the blue and white bars proposed by the senate. The flag as adopted is precisely the same as that suggested by us a short sime since, and is, in our opinion, much more beautiful and appropriate than either the red and white bars or the white field and blue bar as first adopted by the senate. As a national emblem it is significant of our higher cause the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals." https://books.google.com/books?id=vuRCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA418#v=onepage&q&f=false

EricSpokane (talk) 06:14, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * ES: "All the sources for Beauregard's creating the Stainless Banner in Topcat777's edit originate with a letter....The letter was dated April 24th, 1863."


 * Yes, the Beauregard letter was to a member of the Confederate Congress. Do you have any communication from Thompson to the Confederate Congress?


 * ES: "Meanwhile, William Tappan Thompson published an editorial....dated April 23rd, 1863."


 * What got to Richmond faster? A newspaper published in Savannah or a letter written from Charleston?  Or are you claiming that Beauregard got his idea ("white or blue" field) from Thompson ("white field")?


 * ES: "Thompson had access to Confederate flag committee meetings"


 * Source? (Wasn't he in Savannah publishing a newspaper?)  In Thompson's letter to Preble, he mis-identified the chairman of the flag committee as Hartridge (Our Flag: Origin and Progress of the Flag of the United States-see p. 415).  The flag and seal committee was composed of Boteler, Smith and Gray from the House and Semmes, Orr and Preston (later replaced by Wigfall) from the Senate.


 * Who during the war gave Thompson credit for designing the flag (other than Thompson)?


 * What modern day historian gives Thompson credit for designing the flag?
 * John Coski (Museum of the Confederacy) and Robert Bonner (Professor of History, Dartmouth) have written several books and articles on the history of the various Confederate flags. Both are aware of Mr. Thompson, but neither give him credit for designing the Second National flag.  Why should Wikipedia?


 * -Topcat777 18:53, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * First of all, as a library director of the Museum of the Confederacy, I don't imagine John Coski would put that detail in his book. Actually, on Page 18 of Coski's book, when he brings up Thompson's editorial, he writes, "This was a rare, perhaps unique, overt wartime linkage of the flag to white supremacy." Essentially, he skipped around the issue by painting the link between the Confederacy and white supremacy as an anomaly. I don't want to paint an overly broad brush over historians such as Robert Bonner and John Coski that happen to be from the South and accuse them of furthering some Dunning School-esque perspective, but even if not actively trying to paint Confederate history as a clean affair, the omission of certain details does suggest to me a subtle interest in keeping the flag's history clean, much like someone with a username such as Border Ruffian. Speaking of which, who am I speaking to? The response I am replying to initially had BorderRuffian in the signature and that has now been changed to Topcat777 while I was typing up my response. Or are Topcat777 and BorderRuffian one and the same person?


 * Second of all, it's only 110 miles between Savannah and Charleston. Even in the 1860s, it wasn't a far distance, and there was a | railway between Charleston and Savannah that would have taken a prompt train two hours or up to four hours, at most, to travel. It is absolutely plausible for Thompson's editorial or word of it to have traveled quite far in the course of a few hours, let alone over one whole day by the time Beauregard wrote his letter. I haven't done much looking into rail travel from Savannah to Richmond in the 1860s and Page 415 of Preble's book says Thompson's editorial was "republished with approval by the Richmond papers" but doesn't give exact dates apart from "about the time the vote was taken in the house on the flag, but after the senate had adopted a white flag with a broad blue bar in its centre." On Page 417, Preble says Thompson received a dispatch on the vote - dang, those dispatches travel fast, don't they? - saying the blue stripe was adopted, and he published an editorial on April 28th objecting to this. Now, this is where we get into the realm of conjecture. All this back-and-forth in the course of less than five days. Perhaps Beauregard's suggestion was the one the Confederate Congress attended to. Perhaps the Congress heeded Thompson's criticism of the blue stripe and went with his suggestion anyway. Either way, Thompson was not an insignificant part of the flag-designing process. Add Beauregard in, if you'd like, but not by excluding Thompson.


 * Third, Thompson wasn't the one who identified Hartridge as the chairman of the flag committee. Read Page 415 again. That was the author of the book, George Henry Preble, making that identification. Do you have a source for the key people in the flag committee as of 1863? Perhaps Preble made an editorial error that never got corrected. I would cite historians who have made the claim that Thompson designed the Confederate flag, but all their sources go directly back to Preble's book, so I fail to see the point you're making with "modern historians." And if you want to get technical, no one during the war got credit for designing the Stainless Banner. Does the Confederate Congress cite either Beauregard or Thompson as the official designers?


 * EricSpokane (talk) 21:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * ES: "Thompson wasn't the one who identified Hartridge as the chairman of the flag committee. Read Page 415 again. That was the author of the book, George Henry Preble, making that identification."


 * There's a note at the end of that paragraph which refers to Thompson's letter to Preble (see note at bottom of page). That's where he got his information.
 * Note 1: Letter Wm. T. Thompson to G. H. P.
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=vuRCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA415#v=onepage&q=%22julian%20hartridge%22&f=false


 * ES: "Do you have a source for the key people in the flag committee as of 1863?"


 * Journal of the Confederate Congress. They were appointed in 1862 and still in that position in 1863.
 * House:
 * "Committee on Flag and Seal.--Messrs. Boteler, of Virginia; W. R. Smith, of Alabama, and Gray, of Texas."
 * https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcc&fileName=005/llcc005.db&recNum=23&itemLink=D?hlaw:34:./temp/~ammem_KYWQ::%230050024&linkText=1
 * Senate:
 * "Mr. Semmes, Mr. Preston, and Mr. Orr"
 * https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcc&fileName=002/llcc002.db&recNum=20&itemLink=D?hlaw:35:./temp/~ammem_KYWQ::%230020021&linkText=1
 * One change:
 * "On motion by Mr. Semmes,
 * Ordered, That the President pro tempore appoint a member to fill the vacancy in the Committee on Flag and Seal occasioned by the death of the Hon. William Ballard Preston; and Mr. Wigfall was appointed."
 * https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcc&fileName=003/llcc003.db&recNum=22&itemLink=D?hlaw:70:./temp/~ammem_KYWQ::%230030023&linkText=1


 * ES: "Does the Confederate Congress cite either Beauregard or Thompson as the official designers?"
 * They don't cite anyone as the official designer.
 * The Richmond correspondent of the Charleston Mercury (edition of May 5, 1863) and William Parker Snow (author of "Southern Generals" published in 1865) give an unofficial credit to Beauregard.


 * ES: "If you want to get technical, no one during the war got credit for designing the Stainless Banner."
 * Then why do you insist on Thompson?
 * -Topcat777 00:01, 9 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Because Thompson published an editorial championing that exact design on April 23rd, over a full day before Beauregard wrote a letter championing a coincidentally similar design idea, and it's not at all implausible that his suggestions made it to Savannah where Beauregard may have liked the idea, or to Richmond where Congress may have liked the idea, or that his opposition to the blue stripe (particularly with his editorials being circulated in Richmond at that time) may have influenced the Congress' decision on the final design.


 * That being said, since we'll be going in circles around matters of conjecture due to the fact no one was given official credit, I've offered a different edit as a compromise on the matter where credit for either man is offered up as possibilities without conclusion either way.


 * EricSpokane (talk) 07:05, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Refocus
I feel like you both are on the wrong tack here. What have historians and/or vexillologists from the 21st century published about the origins of the flag? The position of our article should reflect the relative weight of their opinions. Synthesizing a position from 150 year old primary and secondary sources isn't our job here, and attempting to do so has made that section a god-awful mess. VQuakr (talk) 22:36, 9 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The issue with the approach of utilizing 21st-century historians is that they also use primary sources like Beauregard's letter and Thompson's editorials and will disregard certain primary sources, depending on their biases. James Loewen is an anti-racist historian, so he has a bias toward Thompson being the creator of the Stainless Banner and makes no mention of Beauregard's letter. Likewise, John Coski is a white Southerner and director of the Museum of the Confederacy, so his dancing around the issue of Thompson's editorials in favor of Beauregard's letter also suggests a bias. Since the evidence was inconclusive either way, I figured the best course would be to acknowledge both possibilities. That being said, I will agree that there are simply too many citations for that section. I'd copied an older edit when I restored Thompson's contribution. I also see a couple citations are repeated more than once. I'm working on trimming those down.


 * EricSpokane (talk) 05:15, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Rectangular Battle Flag
Noticed that the article repeats the "Rectangular Battle Flag isn't historical" myth. Both the square flag and the rectangle flag were approved by the same person, Johnston, correct? More importantly the rectangle flag was still in use by armies on the field after Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia (with the square flag) surrendered, leaving Johnston's rectangle battle flag as the last hope for the South as the war stop-started and sputtered to an end; hence the flag's popularity with the lost-cause folks. Ikmxx (talk) 07:56, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

www.cadsofttools.com HIJACKING Open-Source Wikipedia images
I have observed multiple occasions where an open-source image on Wikipedia has been replaced i.e. HIJACKED by one created by www.cadsofttools.com, including here on Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America in the Controversy section. When anyone tries to view the image offline, they see a pop-up named "CAD Image DLL" with this text: "CAD Image DLL unregistered version.  Please use CS_Manager to adjust drawing settings and register the plugin," along with, "You can download CS_Manager at..." showing the link to their COMMERCIAL website. When they click on the Cancel, they see a smaller version of the image, along with the notice, "Please purchase CAD Image DLL to remove this text www.cadsofttools.com - Evaluation version - "

I find this to be in violation of Wikipedia's policies, and a horrible affront to their ideal goal of Wikipedia as a "free-content encyclopedia project supported by the Wikimedia Foundation and based on a model of openly editable content" as clearly stated on Line 1 of Wikipedia's About page.

As I'm not as proficient with Wikipedia as many of you, I respectfully request your help in reporting this abhorrent and anti-Wikipedia practice to the right pages, persons, or entities having authoritative oversight. Also, anywhere you see such things, please replace it with a high-quality, open-source image, instead, as I will be doing in a moment.

Thank you.Clepsydrae (talk) 20:28, 23 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This is serious. I'm going to link to your message where it might do some good.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:32, 24 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I've tried, but failed, to reproduce this problem. At a guess, I suspect this might be an issue with the software on User:Clepsydrae's local computer when opening downloaded image files, as opposed to on Wikipedia's servers., can you please give me an example of a particular image that causes this behavior? -- The Anome (talk) 00:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your interest in this, Bubba73 and The Anome. I'm using Irfanview, which opens all image files with impunity, except, of course, the growing prevalence of images created by www.cadsofttools.com.  Just to be certain, however, I attempted to open it using paint.net, a high-quality replacement for Adobe Photoshop, and paint.net replied with, "The image type is not recognized, and cannot be opened."  Therefore, if you use the View history to see and download the previous image and upload it into Irfanview, you should see the error messages.Clepsydrae (talk) 06:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm also unable to reproduce. Please give a specific link or code when asked for an example. Are you referring to https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg which is linked at commons:File:Confederate Rebel Flag.svg? If so then the issue is on your own computer. Many image programs cannot handle SVG files. I don't know IrfanView but http://www.irfanview.com/plugins.htm says there is a plugin called CADImage from CADSoftTools to view SVG files. If IrfanView cooperates with CADSoftTools then I'm not surprised that this includes mention of commercial CADSoftTools software. It isn't an issue for Wikipedia. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg is a 878-byte readable text file and certainly contains no such message. The entire content of the file is below. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * As per Wikipedia, "The SVG specification is an open standard developed by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) since 1999." The key word here is "open standard."  The CADSoftTools plug-in requires a fee, yet their graphics are popping up all over the place here on Wikipedia, contrary to the entire purpose and intent of Wikipedia.Clepsydrae (talk) 22:01, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As I told you above, the issue is on your own computer with your own software to display svg images. I showed the entire content of https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg below so you could see for yourself that it has no mention of CAD Image DLL, CS_Manager or cadsofttools. Your browser probably has a view source feature if you want to check for yourself that https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg really contains nothing other than the below code. Other users don't see a message about cadsofttools software when they view the file, unless they happen to have the same or similar software as you. There is nothing Wikipedia can do to prevent you from seeing the message when you display svg files. Only you can prevent that by changing your software or changing which of your software is used to open svg files (maybe you have other software which can do it, try right clicking a svg file). You probably see the same message on any svg file no matter where it's from. If you want to complain to somebody then complain to Irfanview. Complaining to Wikipedia is like complaining that your browsers name or logo appears somewhere when you view Wikipedia articles with the browser. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" width="950" height="600" viewBox="2.5 0 95 60"> <path id="s" transform="scale(3)" fill="#fff" d="M0,-1 L0.58779,0.80902 L-0.95106,-0.30902 L0.95106,-0.30902 L-0.58779,0.80902z"/> <rect fill="#bf0a30" width="100" height="60"/> <path stroke="#fff" stroke-width="12" d="M0,0L100,60M0,60L100,0"/> <path stroke="#002868" stroke-width="9" d="M0,0L100,60M0,60L100,0"/> <use xlink:href="#s" x="10" y="6"/> <use xlink:href="#s" x="23.333" y="14"/> <use xlink:href="#s" x="36.667" y="22"/> <use xlink:href="#s" x="63.333" y="38"/> <use xlink:href="#s" x="76.667" y="46"/> <use xlink:href="#s" x="90" y="54"/> </g> <use xlink:href="#s6" transform="scale(-1,1)" x="-100"/> <use xlink:href="#s" x="50" y="30"/>


 * PrimeHunter, I'm afraid you're mixing apples and oranges. I clearly stated in my previous post the problem occurs after the image is downloaded, not while being viewed online.  Regardless, I went through considerable effort to obtain the publisher's permission to use the photograph of the flag in it's natural environment on Wikimedia Commons, so I respectfully request you leave it as is.  Thank you.Clepsydrae (talk) 23:50, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * does this resolve the problem you raised above? -- The Anome (talk) 11:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your trouble, but as I'm not a coder, I'm not even sure why PrimeHunter included the above code.Clepsydrae (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The primary issue involves which flag is a better flag. I always prefer a clear picture of a real flag in its natural setting as opposed to a sterile, static, uninteresting representation.  That is indeed sometimes needed, but not when you have license to use a photo of the real thing.  Since I went through the trouble to obtain that permission and properly sourced it, as well, I am reverting the flag depiction back to the significantly more aesthetic and quite real photograph.  Please do not continue to revert to the far less interesting cardboard version without substantial justification of doing so, and no, "Because I posted it first" doesn't count.  Wikipedia is edited by the community.  It's not "first to post wins."Clepsydrae (talk) 06:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)


 * It's not "Because I did more work than you" either. There are probably articles that could use that photo, in context. But as an illustration of a 1:2 flag, it's not clear from that photo what ratio the flag actually is. In fact, it looks like a 2:3 ratio to me. Nevertheless, there's no clear consensus here for using a substandard image, "real" or not, so please don't add it again without such a consensus. - BilCat (talk) 08:30, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

1861 flag act text
.....that the flag of the Confederate States of America shall consist of a red field with a white space extending horizontally through the center, and equal in width to one-third the width of the flag. The red spaces above and below to be of the same width as the white. The union blue extending down through the white space and stopping at the lower red space. In the center of the union a circle of white stars corresponding in number with the States in the Confederacy. .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.20.24 (talk) 16:47, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

1863 flag act text
The field to be white, the length double the width of the flag, with the union (now used as the battle flag) to be a square of two-thirds the width of the flag, having the ground red, thereon a saltier of blue, bordered with white and emblazoned with mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding in number to that of the Confederate States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.20.24 (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Surrender flag of Army of Northern Virginia
Interesting history. 65.196.107.215 (talk) 22:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

possible misprint
The captions

First national flag with 11 stars (July 2 – November 28, 1861)

First national flag with 13 stars (December 10, 1861 – May 1, 1863)[14]

leave an hole. please check. pietro151.29.25.24 (talk) 21:13, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps in the hole the flag had 12 stars ... a note might avoid doubts ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.29.25.24 (talk) 18:29, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism being passed around Facebook
When whisper shade vandalized this page it was part of a post on Facebook. I suggest keeping an eye on this page just in case. I found this in a Facebook group being passed around. Here's an image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.47.150 (talk) 03:01, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2020
At the bottom of this article under Flags of the Confederate States of America, an image of the Confederate "rebel flag" with the caption "An elongated version of the Battle Flag of the Army of Tennessee, and similar to The Second Confederate Navy Jack, in use from 1863 until 1865, although with the darker blue field of the Army's battle flag." is duplicated where only one is needed. 2406:5A00:F048:C500:644F:735F:6E6C:6D4B (talk) 10:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Danski454 (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Politico Poll on views about the Confederate flag
I think the poll results should be removed. I looked at the polls source data and 37% of poll respondents were from the South (page 30 of poll). This over-representation of Southerners in the poll skewed the results, especially as respondents from the Northeast only made up 18% of respondents to the question. So, in short, twice as many people from the South answered the question, than from the North. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.75.158.78 (talk) 13:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn’t notice this originally, but I think you have a point. It is one of the dangers of working with primary sources. Do you happen to have a secondary source that analyzed the poll results, and mentions any polling errors or bias? Garuda28 (talk) 13:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Depends on what states are included in the demographic areas. Florida has a larger population (19.6 million) than all six New England states combined (14.6 million). Topcat777 (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I added a newsweek article about the poll, but I don't believe Politico could be accused of being pro-Confederate flag. Topcat777 (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * We dont just remove history because WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. A poll that meets WP:DUE is fine to keep. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

A new section for flag proposals?
I am proposing a new section be added for the numerous proposed flags submitted to the Confederate Congress' Committee on Flag and Seal. My years of research have led to me discover numerous proposals, many of which I have made recreations of, so I could help build the section. --Wardie1993 (talk) 04:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Anyone? I am awaiting feedback. --Wardie1993 (talk) 21:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I believe there's a book that has some proposed flags. Forgot the name of it.Topcat777 (talk) 20:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Excellent, if someone wishes to set the ball rolling, they I shall help build the section, the amount of flag proposal recreations I possess may make it the largest section on the entire page, though! --Wardie1993 (talk) 05:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Changing the infobox's flag into the 13-star one
I will be changing the infobox's Confederate flag into the 13-star version instead of the 7-star version to coincide with the main CSA article and also because it is the longest used out of the first variants. Please reply if you think that I made a mistake and I will revert it. PyroFloe (talk) 13:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The Confederate 'Rebel' flag -- Battle Flag of N.Virginia, or Tennessee?
There seems to be a conflict of information re. the common 'modern' version, aka. Confederate 'Rebel' Flag. Is it an elongated version of the Battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, as stated in the text, or Battle Flag of the Army of Tennessee, as stated in the caption for that flag. I've always heard the original squared version was colors of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, and will change to that one identifier, unless somebody can cite a source for the Tennessee affiliation. Chachap (talk) 09:46, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Banner of Rebellion
Did Lynyrd Skynyrd, Tom Petty and many other "Southern Rock" bands prominently incorporate the Confederate Battle Flag into concert theming? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5C6:4180:3D20:8DF3:9E1E:7EE3:C1BD (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC at Confederate Memorial Day
There is an RfC ongoing at Confederate Memorial Day which may interest editors of this article. Wes sideman (talk) 13:37, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

John Sansom's flag proposal
I can't find any references to the sources used for the recreation of. As far as I can find, this is the source for the art that's directly on the page, but it doesn't cite its sources, and the wikimedia commons page doesn't either. 2600:6C44:E7F:771E:CDF3:AF86:6030:8B37 (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

First Flag: the Stars and Bars
The quote "the legality of Missouri's secession is contested" is quite risible. It is illegal for any state to secede from the Union because it is a "perpetual union" among the states. This fact was the entire basis for Lincoln's prosecution of the war. GnatFriend (talk) 10:40, 28 December 2023 (UTC)