Talk:Flags of the English Interregnum

Flag image
The image labelled as the Commonwealth Jack in the table in the Commonwealth of England article does not match the description given in this article, not even close! So which is wrong? And if this flag isn't the commonwealth jack, what is it? Grunners 00:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * More info here. http://www.nationalflaggen.de/flags-of-the-world/flags/gb-inter.html --Valentinian 01:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

replaced Union Flag?
This article says it replaced the Union Flag and afterwards was replaced by the returned Union Flag. But this was before the Union; and according to the Union Flag article, at the time it was only used on on the monarch's ships; and otherwise the flags of England, Scotland, etc. were used. --Spoon! 08:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

harp
The harp in this image is apparently derived from the 'Brian Boru'harp, which has been used as a model for both the Guinness trademark and the seal of the Irish Free State and post 1937 Irish State. Is this an accurate representation of the particular harp used on this standard? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RashersTierney (talk • contribs).

A different account of the flags
See Flags of the World, Past and Present: Their Story and Associations pp.58-9:


 * The earliest Commonwealth Flag was a simple reversion to the Cross of St. George. At a meeting of the Council of State, held on February 22nd, 1648-49, it was " ordered that the ships at sea in service of the State shall onely beare the red Crosse in a white flag. That the engravings upon the Sterne of ye ships shall be the Armes of England and Ireland in two Scutcheons, as is used in the Seals, and that a warrant be issued to ye Commissioners of ye Navy to see it put in execution with all speed." The communication thus ordered to be made to the Commissioners was in form a letter from the President of the Council as follows : — " To ye Commissioners of ye Navy. — Gentlemen, — There hath beene a report made to the Councell by Sir Henry Mildmay of your desire to be informed what is to be borne in the flaggs of those Ships that are in the Service of the State, and what to be upon the Sterne in lieu of the Armes formerly thus engraven. Upon the consideration of the Councell whereof, the Councell have resolved that they shall beare the Red Crosse only in a white flagg, quite through the flag. And that upon the Sterne of the Shipps there shall be the Red Crosse in one Escotcheon, and the Harpe in one other, being the Armes of England and Ireland, both Escotcheons joyned according to the pattern herewith sent unto you. And you are to take care that these Flags may be provided with all expedition for the Shipps for the Summer Guard, and that these engraveings may also be altered according to this direction with all possible expedition. — Signed in ye name and by order of ye Councell of State appointed by Authority of Parliament. — Ol. Cromwell, Derby House, February 23rd, 1648." At a Council meeting held on March 5th, it is " ordered that the Flagg that is to be borne by the Admiral, Vice-Admiral, and Rere-Admiral be that now presented, viz., the Armes of England and Ireland in two severall Escotcheons in a Red Flag, within a compartment " ; and a contemporary representation of this Long Parliament flag may be seen on the medals bestowed on the victorious naval commanders, where the principal ship in the sea-fight represented on the reverse of the medal flies it at her masthead.


 * A Commonwealth standard, so-called, is preserved at the Royal United Service Museum. The ground of the flag is red, but the shields are placed directly upon it without any yellow compartment, and around them is a wreath of oak and laurel in dark green.


 * The ordinance for the re-union of Scotland with England and Ireland was promulgated on April 12th 1654. In the first flag following that ordinance, England and Scotland were represented by the crosses of St George and St. Andrew, and Ireland by a golden harp on a blue ground which is the correct standard of that country. These were displayed quarterly, St. George being first and fourth, Ireland second, and St. Andrew third. The standard of the Protector consisted of this flag with his escutcheon of a white lion rampant on a black field placed in the centre. The harp, however, seemed quite out of place in this flag, and another was tried in which St. George was in the first and fourth, St. Andrew in the second, and the red saltire on white daringly placed in the third as representing Ireland. This was a most unsatisfactory arrangement for visibility at sea, and the old Union was reverted to, but as Ireland was not shown on it, a golden harp was placed in the centre, and at the Restoration the harp was removed and the flag became as it was at the death of Charles I.

The book is old [1915] but given the citations it sounds like the author [William John Gordon] knows what he's talking about; certainly for the first paragraph, if not the second. jnestorius(talk) 15:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Commonwealth flag as described in 1909
The subject of your article does not correspond with the flag described in this article from The Times on March 17, 1909:

"The Commonwealth Flag. The standard of the Commonwealth, which has hitherto been preserved in Chatham Dockyard, has been deposited, by order of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, in the Royal United Service Museum, Whitehall. It is a large flag of red bunting, 20ft. long by lft. wide. A large green wreath of laurel encircles two shields placed side by side in the middle of the flag. These shields are of the same dimensions, each being 5ft. deep and 5ft. across. One of them consists of a white field with the St. George's Cross of England; the other of a blue field with the Irish harp in yellow. It is expected that the fag will be on exhibitIon before the end of the week. Owing to its large size it will not be shown in full, but will be doubled in a case in which will be displayed an illustration of the whole flag. The use of the Commonwealth flag was discontinued after the Restoration. Pepys, in his " Diary," notes the change. Writing under date Mlay 13, 1660, he says:- 'To the quarterdeck, at which the taylors and painters were at work, cutting out some pieces of yellow cloth in the fashion of a crown and C.R., and put it upon a fine sheet, and that Into the flag instead of the State's arms, which after dinner was finished and set up." The Commonwealth standard adds another to the collection of historic flags in the mnseum, the last most interesting addition being the flag of the United States frigate Chesapeake, taken by H.M.S. Shannon on June 1, 1813, and given to the museum by Mr. W. W. Astor."

I wonder does any one know what flag the above is referring to? Regards. Staighre (talk) 20:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That's referrimg to flags of Oliver Cromwell's 17th century Commonwealth (i.e. republic) not to the 20th century Commonwealth of nations... AnonMoos (talk) 18:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Could be embarrasingly incorrect
My interpretation of "And that upon the Sterne of the Shipps there shall be the Red Crosse in one Escotcheon, and the Harpe in one other, being the Armes of England and Ireland, both Escotcheons joyned according to the pattern herewith sent unto you" is that the flag had two Escutcheons (that is, shields), on it with the St George's Cross and Irish Harp, not that the entire flag was divided into two halves, one half with the cross and the other with the shield, as depicted. Why would the order need to contain instructions on how to "joyn" such a simple design if no shields were involved? The creator of the flag image seems to be imitating an unreliable source. Abductive (reasoning) 11:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * So I have tried to identify what are naval flags and what are national flags. I think the flags for the Commonwealth of England and the Commonwealth of England, Scotland and Ireland are correct, even if the dates they were used are wrong. Regards, Rob (talk) 15:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

2024

 * I understand Abductive's concern that the mention of escutcheons makes the decision of the council at least ambiguous, but on the one hand, it wouldn't be the first time that decision makers had used heraldic and similar words in a less than standard way, and more importantly, the use of the flag with impaled arms rather than shields on a flag, in place of the royalist Union Jack, is illustrated and explained in both Perrin and Hulme, both referring to illustrations of ships of the time. This is in contrast with the "Standard" for commanders, which had shields explicitly on a red field. (The National Maritime Museum also understands the existence of two different flags this way.)
 * In contrast, I can't find any reliable source for the flag simply quartered St George and St Andrew being used by the Commonwealth/Protectorate. Perrin, Hulme and others only mention flags which include an Irish harp once Scotland is included - as far as I know, this is also the case in non-flag symbols of the time. It is true that Hulme's book captions this quartered flag "Commonwealth Flag, England and Scotland.", but the text does not back this up at all, only referring to it as a hypothetical Union Jack. (The caption on figure 80 beside it, similarly hypothetical in the text, is also obviously wrong.) JPD (talk) 07:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested Move 1

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Flags of the Commonwealth of England → Flags of the Interregnum (British Isles) – Commonwealth of England and Commonwealth of England, Scotland and Ireland are separate sovereign states. Regards, --Relisted. --  tariq abjotu  07:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC) Rob (talk) 15:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * However, "Interregnum" is a retrospective and anachronistic term, which doesn't say what the flags represented, but merely singles out one negative feature. Would prefer something like "Cromwellian period"... AnonMoos (talk) 05:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - This is simplest way to list all the flags here, without implying they are only English. There is no easier name. RGloucester  — 📬 13:42, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Still think the new title is somewhat problematic, but guess we're stuck with it for now... AnonMoos (talk) 07:14, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 03:26, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Flags of the Interregnum (British Isles) → Flags of the English Interregnum – There is no Flags of the Interregnum, so the current title is fairly unusual. I suppose it was chosen because there's no primary topic for Interregnum. But this isn't even matching Interregnum (England). I suggest this alternative as WP:NATURAL disambiguation. --Relisted. Dekimasu よ! 04:11, 29 October 2014 (UTC) --BDD (talk) 15:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support sounds good to me (or Flags of the Interregnum of England) -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 01:19, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. Rob984 (talk) 17:26, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * oppose the previous move changed "England" to "British Isles" because it was the Interregnum (1649–1660), of which the Interregnum (England) is a subtopic. 82.132.216.9 (talk) 19:00, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ten points to BDD and support Red Slash 02:03, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 *  Oppose , the time period relates to: File:Commonwealth of England (1649 to 1653).png which also includes Wales and Ireland. I would support: Flags of the Commonwealth of England's Interregnum or Flags of the Interregnum (Commonwealth of England) or similar ping BDD, Rob984,  Red  Gregkaye  ✍ ♪  06:46, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "English Interregnum" is a common name, while "Commonwealth of England's Interregnum" is not (we can't make up names, even for neutrality). Why not just Flags of the Interregnum? There's no alternative targets. Alternatively, Flags of the Interregnum (1649–1660)? Rob984 (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with Flags of the Interregnum. What I specifically want to avoid is a "Foo (bar)" title when "Foo" isn't an article. --BDD (talk) 20:19, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not about flags of Interregnum, not either of the first two Scottish ones either. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:51, 30 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. I think the proposed title would be clear even if the scope includes Wales & Ireland lightly.  The perfect should not be the enemy of the good, etc.  "Flags of the Interregnum" is too vague. SnowFire (talk) 00:16, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.