Talk:Flame (rapper)/Archive 1

Notability
The artist's label's and personal web pages do not count as independent sources. The artist does not meet any criteria set up in WP:MUSIC. Being nominated for an award does not make an artist notable, they must actually with win the award first. Idioma 18:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

In Defense
Howdy, stumbled across this page and the issues with it, so I went ahead and did the research on it, and I conclude a:

Strong Keep

I would say that nomination for a Song of the Year in the GMA Dove Awards (Christian music's version of the Grammy) is notable, placing his Song in the Top 5 Christian Rap songs in the country for the year. Confirmed with a google search of GMA Dove Flame. This at the minimum satisfies #9 - Has won or placed in a major music competition.  Also, I've found 3 sources of news:

Paid (Google news earch turned up context, pages ask for login/payment):  

Free (and notable): 

The notable thing about that last article is this:

"Despite an emerging national audience, gospel rap has no platinum-selling breakout artist -- and certainly nothing on par with holy rock & rollers Switchfoot or P.O.D. (Payable On Death). But this might change soon. Artists such as Grits have sold hundreds of thousands of albums under the auspices of Nashville-based Gotee records. Another top label, New Jersey's Cross Movement Records, includes local artist Flame on its roster. Flame has moved some 30,000 albums, tours as far away as Alaska and has one of his songs blasting on Busch Stadium's loudspeakers each time Albert Pujols comes to bat."

Three things this says... First, it's an apples to oranges comparison to compare his record says to that of say, Jay Z. He's a big fish in a not quite so big pond. But, he qualifies for notability for his national touring of the Notability guidelines:

4. Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country,3 reported in reliable sources.

Also, A St. Louis newspaper is reporting that in their hometown stadium, Busch Stadium, a hometown player Albert Pujols plays his music over the stadium speakers every time he comes to bat. (Albert Pujols isn't some unknown player, his 2007 salary is over $12 million. From Wikipedia: Since his debut in 2001 through the 2006 season he leads the major leagues in RBI, runs, total bases and extra base hits, and is second in home runs and batting average. In other words, he's a star, so people are listening when he comes to bat.) So, there's also national airtime every time a game is on the radio or television, Flame's song is heard.

7. Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

Was notable enough that a newspaper commented on it.

10. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable

Some players (like wrestlers) are often known by their fans by their "theme song", and this is such a song by a top player of MLB.

But, notice, I'm not counting the article itself as being at the level of being notable. Under Wikipedia standards, it is not. However, it provides many facts that do rise to the level of notability. In total:

1. GMA Dove Awards nominee placing him in the top 5 of his genre. 2. Reported by a reliable source to tour nationally. 3. Is played several times per game to a stadium, radio, television audience of MLB. 4. For the genre of Christian Rap, he's a major representative, as recognized by the media and the GMA Dove association (the closest thing to an expert opinion on the matter). 5. Belongs to a label recognized as a "top label" for the genre (not up to Wikipedia standards for Indie Label notability, but in this genre, there aren't any "top labels" as defined by Wikipedia).

Now, honestly, I've never heard of the guy, nor listened to him. I followed the link here from Sabellianism where I was researching recently added info about his references to dynamic monarchianism (a part of Christian theology). And while the information added indicates that I would disagree on major points theologically with Mr. Gray, my research none the less shows that he is certainly notable in the Christian & Gospel music world.

I would also like to add a point of disagreement with the statement: "Being nominated for an award does not make an artist notable, they must actually with the award first." (S.I.C.)

Well, it certainly adds significantly to their notability. Those that have only been nominated (and never won) certainly display their "mere" nomination as an accomplishment by itself, because it is, be it an Oscar, a Grammy, or a Dove. Not winning doesn't make them "unnotable", and it certainly adds to their notability.

From the above data, I would not consider this page to be a vanity page for some random garage band. Further, if this page is removed, one might as well remove all Christian Rap artists because none have gone gold, and very few could top this artist. And, in that same train of thought, one would remove all artists of non-mainstream genres.

Don't know if I'd listen to him, and all these facts need to be added to this page in a nice format, but... Strong Keep -- DeWayne Lehman (talk • contribs) @ 06:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I will move your comment to the main debate page. Major music awards are different from major music competitions. Award shows do not place for one thing, you either win or you lose.  While all the information that you have found is great the majority of it does not establish notability according to WP:MUSIC.  However with  the addition of the news paper source and the CCM magazine article, there would be multiple reliable independent sources, albeit just the minimum to count as multiple (just two).  Its true that not winning an award does not make an artist non notable, but that is why there are many more criteria and all one has to do is satisfy one of those criteria. Idioma 07:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)