Talk:Flat Rock Camp

Paine as architect
User:Blueboar has been attempting to alter the infobox in two ways. The first, which I agree with, was moving Lyman Smith from the "architect" slot to the "builder" slot, on the argument that this more precisely describes his role. The second change, however, is incorrect and not supported by the available source. He wishes to move Augustus J. Paine out of the "architect" slot (which he had been sharing with Lyman) entirely. Blueboar put him in as "Designed by", but since the NRHP infobox doesn't support that variable, this loses the name from the infobox entirely. The source I found (footnote #3) says that Paine "designed" the camp. My argument is that even if Paine is not a trained and practicing architect, the fact that he designed the camp makes his the de facto "architect" of the site, at least as far as using the NRHP infobox goes. (Blueboar's edit summary to the effect that others may have designed some of the buildings is entirely speculation; if there's evidence of that, it should be added to the article and the infobox updated accordingly.) Were the infobox to be changed to support a "Designed by" slot, I would be OK with that, but if the choice is between not listing the man who designed the camp, or listing him under what is (perhaps) a somewhat inaccurate appellation, I think having him listed is preferable. I'd also mentioned that I've worked quite a bit on NYC building articles for churches and so on, and before being an "architect" became professionalized, many buildings were put up by builders from the designs of a non-trained person, such as the pastor of the church, and in these cases, the NYC Landmark Preservations Board consisently describes thes person who made the designs as the "architect". Although not controlling in this instance, that is a compelling precedent for listing Paine as the "architect" in the infobox. Finally, I urge Blueboar not to edit war over this, and to follow WP:BRD: he was Bold, I Reverted, now we Discuss. Continuing to revert instead of discussing is edit-warring, as Blueboar knows, since he was recently blocked for doing so. Please do not revert, rather discuss the matter here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * First, let me share some personal knowledge ... Augustus Paine was my Great-Grandfather, and the camp is still owned by my family. I know the history of this building intimately... yes, such personal knowledge would be WP:OR if I were trying to add it to the article... I am not.  I share it here on the talk page as background information.
 * Flat Rock never had an "Architect"... Like many Adirondack camps, it grew (and shrank) organically over the course of the 100+ years since the land was first purchased. It started as a two room "living room" building, with the "bedrooms" originally being tents on platforms - placed in an L shape following the contours of the point of land on which the house sits.  Over the span of about 10 years, the tents were replaced with more permanent rooms, added as wings to the "central" living room (in some ways the layout resembles a modern motel's... with rooms being self contained units accessed through an exterior covered walkway).  Various "outbuildings" were also constructed - a billiards room, a chapel, a separate building for Paine's mother-in-law, laundry, garage and storage sheds, etc. - some of which were subsequently connected, some of which stayed separate.  By the 1930s the layout had settled into the form of a U shape around a central courtyard.  However, this all happened without a formal "plan"... with rooms or buildings added or subtracted as needed.  All was done to My Great-Grandfather's specification and desire... but rarely done with any sort of blueprint, plan, or formal "design".  He knew what he wanted, informed the workmen, and set them to doing it.  Sometimes he consulted with actual architects, but often that was not needed (you don't need an architect to tell the workmen... "build another room onto the end of the north wing... same size as the one you built last year".


 * Now that you understand the history of how the camp grew and shrank over the years... let's talk about terminology. Augustus Paine was definitely not an architect.  That word implies a certain amount of training, and skill.  I would not even call him an amateur architect.  He hired men who could be called that, but he was not... he had a broad vision, but it was his workmen who had the skills and training to bring his vision to life.  He really was not even a "designer" in a professional sense, but that is the closest term we have for his involvement ... more to the point, "Designer" is a term that is actually supported by reliable sources.  Yes, the NRHP database (from which we draw the information in the standard NRHP info-box) uses the term "Architect"... This is a known flaw with their database. We have had problems with that designation at other articles, and we know that the NRHP forms improperly use that term as a catch all for "someone involved in the construction/planning/design/layout/etc in some significant way" (lumping landscape artists, engineers, carpenters, masons... whether professionals or amateurs, all under one designation).  Wikipedia should not repeat that known flaw if we can avoid it.
 * Now let's discuss the info-box. If the info-box does not allow us to edit its information to accurately reflect sourced facts, then there is a flaw with the info-box that needs correcting.  We have a reliable source that uses the term "Design" to describe my Great-Grandfather's involvement in the construction of the camp... so we should use that term as well.  If the info-box will not accept this term, we need to change the info-box so that it will accept it.  We should not change sourced facts to fit the parameters of an info-box... we should change the info-box to accept sourced facts.  Blueboar (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * How about this for a temporary compromise, until such time (if ever) that the infobox is changed: instead of having Paine & Lyman in the "architect" slot, I've put them both in the "builder" slot, with Paine slugged for "design". This keeps Paine in the infobox, credits him for the overall design of the camp, but doesn't raise him to the level of "architect". If you can live with that, so can I. Best, Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, that works for me as an acceptable (temporary) fix. I am still not happy that the headers in the info box can not be easily edited or added to, so that we can take deal with "out of the norm" situations like this (I suspect that in most NRHP articles, the person listed as "architect" probably is the architect... but I have already seen several situations where the sources indicate that other term would be more appropriate.)... but that is an issue for the Project page and not this one. I thank you for your patience, understanding and willingness to find compromise. Blueboar (talk) 01:02, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * My pleasure, glad we could work something out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)