Talk:Flea circus

Issues
Specific issues with the page?

Does anyone know what specific issues are wrong with this page? If so then I'm happy to revise the appropriate comments and seek removal of the tag.
 * I probably should have replied here, but see my reply on your talk page. — Epastore 20:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Wild Tigers & Tame Fleas
I've got a copy of this book and I concur that it has no ISBN on it. Flea Circus Director 15:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

New section on popular culture
I like the idea of having a new section on popular culture but it would be better to have a couple of paragraphs about how flea circuses have influenced films, books, poems etc otherwise we going to simply end up with a mirror of my flea film listings that already exist at http://www.fleacircus.co.uk/Films.htm.

This is a very minor observation, but I thought I'd point it out anyway - in Jurassic Park, Richard Attenborough's character doesn't say his flea circus was in the United States. He says "when i first came down from Scotland" (ie to England), and that his flea circus was on Petticoat Lane, which is a famous street in East London. I don't know why I felt I had to point this out, but I do. I guess that's what wikipedia is about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.175.128.101 (talk) 20:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

(Flea Circus Director 10:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

Early history
There are a couple of references to the watch makers, one in the appendixes of "Jay's Journal of Anomalies" and the other recently found in The diary of a surgeon in the year 1751-1752 by John Knyveton.

Flea Circus Director 15:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Numbering of external references?
I notice that there are some external references in the page which are also present in the list in the last section which is not numbered. Is there a Wikipedia standard for this? Do those numbers need to be updated?

212.125.73.242 08:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

So, is this real?:

 * Human fleas are used for performances as other fleas are too small. For the same reason, female fleas are preferred over males. The fleas live only for a short time and hence training of fleas is an ongoing requirement.


 * Fleas are trained not to jump by keeping them in a container with a lid. Once trained, they are harnessed by carefully wrapping a thin gold wire around the neck of the flea. Once in the harness the fleas usually stay in it for life. The harnesses are attached to the props and the strong legs of the flea allows them to move objects significantly larger than themselves.

That does not seem quite right.

&#91;&#91; hopiakuta Please do  sign  your  signature  on your  message. %7e%7e  Thank You. -]] 02:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Possibly the second paragraph might be improved by authoritative quotes.

As for the first paragraph, some links might help:
 * flea
 * Skara_Brae
 * fauna_of_Scotland
 * There should be an indication that it does not reference:
 * the fly
 * kafkaesque

Thank You,

&#91;&#91; hopiakuta Please do  sign  your  signature  on your  message. %7e%7e  Thank You. -]] 06:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Removal of "Real Fleas" section
This was lifted from one website, which one can hardly take seriously as a reference, and includes citations from a book that doesn't seem to exist. I'm dropping the text below or "safekeeping"

Techniques for training real fleas


 * Human fleas (Pulex irritans) are used for performances as other fleas are too small. For the same reason, female fleas are preferred over males. The fleas live only for a short time and hence training of fleas is an ongoing requirement.


 * Fleas are trained not to jump by keeping them in a container with a lid. Once trained, they are harnessed by carefully wrapping a thin gold wire around the neck of the flea. Once in the harness the fleas usually stay in it for life. The harnesses are attached to the props and the strong legs of the flea allows them to move objects significantly larger than themselves.


 * Chemicals such as camphor that repel fleas are placed on lightweight balls and the fleas kick them away, this makes the fleas look like they are juggling or playing football. A recent example of this is the Munich beer festival Floh Zirkus.


 * There are historical reports of fleas glued to the base of the flea circus enclosure, instruments were then glued to the flea performers and the enclosure was heated. The fleas fought to escape giving the impression of fleas playing musical instruments.

BTR (talk) 20:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Bertolotto's book is available in the British Library and in the Biblio National Francais. The New York Historical Society also has a copy.

The Noonco site is that of a magician and hence I agree it could be questionable however if you watch the videos on his site and those on Pathe News you will see that they are real.

Perhaps a better reference from Walt is the History page which is written by "Dr Richard Wiseman from the Univerity of Hertfordshire" (now Professor Wiseman) which is packed full of references to various books that might be a bit easier to track down.

http://www.noonco.com/flea/history.htm

(Flea Circus Director (talk) 13:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC))

Bertolotto book also available in Netherlands(French edition) http://library.wur.nl/WebQuery/catalog/lang/1850266 (Flea Circus Director (talk) 16:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC))

Didn't understand
If this is a real matter or fictional. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.68.192.151 (talk) 13:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Performing fleas.jpg
Image:Performing fleas.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Real Flea Circuses
There is actually plenty of evidence to support the idea that some flea circuses did or have used real fleas such as news paper reports from Denmark, USA and UK, there is video footage from pathe and Maria Cardoso and current performers who are using fleas.

Flea Circus Director (talk) 15:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Notes on the size of different fleas and the use of female fleas come from L.Bertolotto's book "The History of the Flea with Notes and Observations"

Flea Circus Director (talk) 15:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction
This article seems to contradict itself. On one hand it asserts that flea circuses are/were basically a ruse and on the other it goes into detail about training real fleas (all unsourced). Very confusing, unclear and unreliable. IvoShandor (talk) 13:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

There two types of flea circus, both real and "humbug" flea circus. The sources are there in the both the references and the external links. (Flea Circus Director (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC))

List of current flea circuses
I attempted to add another item to the list of current flea circuses, but the bot said this was Not OK. (
 * Professor Payne's Phantasmagorical Flea Circus can be seen at public libraries and private shows in Washington state. ) Is there a particular reason the existing list is definitive?Khedges1 (talk) 07:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that list is only a fraction of the list of current performers. I've 46 listed on the Flea Circus Research Library Directory Professor Payne is not currently one of them but will be added shortly. I'm wondering if this a list of current performers has any place in the article at all but it's hard for me to be objective on this topic as I maintain my own list.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTLINK#LINK

Flea Circus Director (talk) 09:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Circus Project Rating
Can someone clarify what is missing/incorrect such that the article gets only a "Start" rating?

Flea Circus Director (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, that was my error. I meant to rate it C class. The article could use a history section on the origin and development of flea circuses. The Flea circuses in popular culture section as its currently presented may, to some, be viewed as an unsourced trivia section. Also the article needs more inline references to go to B class. Shine runner   (talk)   01:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Max Rubbish
Four times now an IP editor has added a bit about how Maxfield Rubbish was the first flea circus trainer to appear in the U.S., at Balboa Park, San Diego, in 1935. The bit is entirely uncited.

Maxfield Rubbish is the stage name of a performer in San Diego who was listed on the Balboa Park calendar in February 2008. My gut feeling is that the anonymous IP editor is using Wikipedia to play up the mystique of the 2000s-era performer at the expense of accuracy and truth. If proven wrong, I would gladly include something about a 1935 trainer. What is needed is a reliable source, per WP:RS. Binksternet (talk) 21:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this is not a valid edit, it's about 80 years too late to be the first in the US. (Flea Circus Director (talk) 12:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC))

Pulgas Vestidas
I notice that someone dropped the paragraph about Pulgas Vestidas (dressed fleas) Is it worth mentioning these along with flea circuses? Apart from the presence of fleas and perhaps some of the skills involved there are no obvious connections but they normally get mentioned together. (Flea Circus Director (talk) 12:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC))

Mark Scaliot
For the update to the history section I've referred to "The Faithful Annalist: Or The Epitome Of The English History", I've transcribed it here (with the old english F/S)

"This year Mark Scaliot, Blackfmith of London, for tyal of his workmanfship, make one Lock of Iron, Steell, and Brafs, of eleve feveral pieces, and a pipe Key, all clean wrought, which weight but one grain of gold he alfo at the fame time made a chain of gold of 43 links; to which chain the lock and key being faftened, and put about a fleas neck, the drew the fame with eafel all which lock and key, chain and flea, weighted but on grain and a half."

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V4M9AAAAcAAJ&dq=lock+chain+of+links+mark&q=flea#v=snippet&q=flea&f=false There are other references to Mark Scaliot abotu so if someone finds a better one please swap it in.

(Flea Circus Director (talk) 12:41, 15 June 2010 (UTC))

Oktoberfest Mathes
There are multiple references to a flea circus at the Oktoberfest run by the Mathes family, the last one I can see is 2008.

e.g http://munich.mydestinationinfo.com/en/oktoberfest-fun-rides http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/laytonandjana/departure/1221835020/tpod.html#pbrowser/laytonandjana/departure/1221835020/filename=flea-circus.jpg http://connectedtraveler.com/CT/places/europe/66-oktoberfest-in-munich

Flea Circus Director (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Mathes died in 2008 and the flea circus is now controlled by his assistent because the family had no interest in the buisness. The Flea Circus is still there--95.88.233.19 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:02, 2 October 2010 (UTC).

The Flea Circus at the Oktoberfest was taken over by Robert Birk in 2005 who had been working with Mathes for over 20 years... --Tallyho (talk) 20:08, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Conditioned in Containers
Fleas are not conditioned in a container. Because they can't be conditioned. Fleas don't got a brain and no way to remember things. They are sorted by jumping and running fleas when selected for the circus. That information was given in the German TV Show "Hund, Katze, Maus" today, by the owner of the Flea Circus on the Oktoberfest himself. Where he also showed how he selects the fleas. They are not trained. --95.88.233.19 (talk) 17:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Training and selection by "talent" are NOT excluding each other, right? --Tallyho (talk) 20:09, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Music
Are any of the six songs titled "Flea Circus" duplicates / covers? - I find it hard to believe there are six independently written songs with that title, at least not registered with organizations such as ASCAP. Btw, interesting topic for an article, but would prefer to see more independently sourced references. Perhaps many of the "Notes" could be cited as "References"? ~E 74.60.29.141 (talk) 04:06, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Oktoberfest
A citation was request for the Oktoberfest flea circus. Here's the website for Robert Birk He had quite a bit of press this year with the whole frozen fleas article that came out the day before April 1st and hence speculation as to if it was an April Fools joke or not. I see he's already listed under the performers so it just needs a wikiguru to link it all up.

Flea Circus Director (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Disambig?
Portions of this article seem like they should be split off into a disambiguation page. -- &oelig; &trade; 01:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest that all the meanings of the phrase "Flea Circus" are consistent on this page so there's no need for a disambig page Flea Circus Director (talk) 15:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

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