Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)/Archive 20

in the expulsions and deportations
In the flight, war and expulsions. There was a war in 1945, guns, bombs, tanks, sunking ships. Xx236 (talk) 10:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

LeMO: Lebendiges Museum Online. Berlin has spoken, the case is closed. Berlin hat gesprochen, der Fall ist beendet. Xx236 (talk) 11:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Die Flucht der deutschen Bevölkerung 1944/45 600 000 says


 * Good catch, but still and all readers will see the figure of 2 million that was copied by English speaking academic wonks in their reliable sources--Woogie10w (talk) 11:47, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

You miss the point, there are two sides of the argument. As editors of Wikipedia we must present both sides, not the position that fits our POV. It is importrant to remember that many reliable sources in English stiil use this figure of 2 million. We can't ignore these sources, they are a reality.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I mean that the German government finances the LeMO. Even if some politicians say what they had to say they accept the lower numbers. The same Adenauer pretended to fight for the 1938 borders.
 * Reliable sources used to quote 4 million Auschwitz victims, now they don't. Reliable sources weren't able to explain who committed the Katyn crime, now they are.
 * Reliable sources used the word expulsion now they write flight and expulsion. Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The lead should be rewritten
Since February 2012: "The lead section of this article may need to be rewritten. Please discuss this issue on the talk page and read the layout guide to make sure the section will be inclusive of all essential details." Xx236 (talk) 05:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm asking once more - please rewrite the lead rather than adding your POV.Xx236 (talk) 10:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Either the whole lead should be referenced or none. The present references are funny.Xx236 (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Either the whole lead should be referenced or none. Xx236 (talk) 07:41, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

not to disturb West German-Polish rapprochement
I don't see anything like this in the quoted Ingo Haar's article. Xx236 (talk) 08:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Recent reverts by Illraute
In regard to two recent reverts:
 * - I'm sorry but providing background and indicating that Nazi Germany itself was involved in expelling people is not "SPAM". That's just ridiculous, not to mention offensive.
 * - I have read the source and best as I can tell it does not call this genocide but ethnic cleansing, although I note that page numbers have not been provided.

Additionally, the Rubinstein's "Genocide, a history" ref also does not provide page numbers and is unavailable online for a verifiability check. Volunteer Marek 05:21, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

In regard to continued edit warring: Volunteer Marek 05:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * - I did read page 118 and it says the expulsions were ethnic cleansing, not genocide. The next page explains that ethnic cleansing and genocide are not the same thing.
 * Continuing to call information about the expulsion policy of Nazi Germany "SPAM" is offensive and disruptive. This info is also in the body of the article and as such also belong in summary form in the lede.
 * It is out of context, and does not belong in the lead. It was added two day ago → . If necessary, I will take this to WikiProject History/WikiProject Germany.
 * Regarding the ref - you obviously did not read the reference. please read page 118/119.--IIIraute (talk) 05:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * It is not "out of context" it IS the context. You can take it where ever you want. When it was added is immaterial. Speaking of that, the change in the lede from "democide" to "genocide" was done recently, without justification and apparantly by a banned user from an IP address (his other contribution had been reverted).
 * And like I already said, I HAVE read pages 118 and 119. The section is titled "But is ethnic cleansing genocide?" The text then goes out to describe how the ethnic cleansing is distinct from genocide and how original framework of the Geneva Convention was careful not to include ethnic cleansing in its definition of genocide. Have you read the pages referring to? Volunteer Marek 05:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Remove the source, if you want - but the addition to the lead paragraph is out of context. Please re-read the version you are endorsing. It doesn't fit the context, at all → . Later on, there already is a similar paragraph: "The policy was part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe; in part spoils of war, in part political changes in Europe following the war and in part recompense for atrocities and ethnic cleansings that had occurred during the war." --IIIraute (talk) 06:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks.
 * As to the context - the sentence should probably go right after the sentence you mention - there's value in being precise. And then both sentences should be moved up to the end of the first paragraph. Volunteer Marek 06:19, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "So far, about morals, I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after." (E.H.) - You decide. Namasté. --IIIraute (talk) 06:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

War children
I don't understand Danish but the article says about German children in Denmark, Norway and Holland: http://www.b.dk/boeger/database-over-danske-tyskerboern

Maybe the information dispersed in the article should be integrated? Xx236 (talk) 09:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20762268?uid=3738840&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102334531787 Xx236 (talk) 09:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The forward to the book was written by German President Horst Köhler and the German interior minister Otto Schily

 * This article is about the Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950), not about German politicians. Xx236 (talk) 10:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen."

Friedrich Nietzsche Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Six articles in this Wikipedia contain the words "The forward to the book was written by German President Horst Köhler and the German interior minister Otto Schily". One article quotes Henry Kissinger and one article has multiple issues. Maybe such phrase belongs to German culture? Xx236 (talk) 13:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Citing sources doesn't list authors of a non-quoted foreword as part of Bibliographic data. Xx236 (talk) 13:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello, this sentence alerts readers that the book is tainted by political bias.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:40, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Stiftung Flucht - Vertreibung - Versoehnung
Germany created the Foundation and the Foundation created the project of the Museum. It's the recent German opinion. Not Nawratil, not Erika Steinbach.Xx236 (talk) 13:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

assured the leaders of the emigre governments of Poland
Rossevelt and Churchill allowed Stalin to occupy Poland during the Yalta Conference, but the London government didn't have any meaning since the Katyn massacre discovery and gen. Sikorski's death.Xx236 (talk) 07:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Nazi era war crimes motivated the Allies to expel the Germans
I made a series of edits to the lede to reflect the current position of the German government that the Nazi era war crimes motivated the Allies to expel the Germans. ''Es wurde schlimm, und es wurde schwer, Gott zu verstehen. Getrieben durch Hitlers Wahn vom "Lebensraum im Osten" begann Deutschland einen Krieg, dessen Ziel die ethnische Neuordnung weiter Teile Osteuropas durch Vertreibung, Umsiedlung, Deportation, Vernichtung und Germanisierung war. Millionen von Menschen fielen diesem Wahn zum Opfer. Allein über eine Million Polen wurden von Deutschen deportiert und vertrieben. Fünf bis sechs Millionen polnische Staatsbürger kamen unter der deutschen Besatzung ums Leben, davon drei Millionen Juden.'' Note well that this is in stark contrast to the cold war position in West Germany that refused to link the war crimes of Nazi Germany to the expulsions.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Please do not cherry-pick - the paragraph you are quoting, does continue: "Am Ende schlug die von Deutschland ausgegangene Gewalt grausam dorthin zurück. Dabei verloren etwa 15 Millionen Deutsche durch Flucht und  Vertreibung ihre Heimat. Zwei Millionen von ihnen, meist Alte, Kinder und Frauen, überlebten den Marsch nach Westen nicht. Sie erfroren auf den Rückzugsstraßen, ertranken in der eisigen Ostsee oder gingen an Hunger und Seuchen zugrunde. Abertausende Deutsche wurden ermordet, ungezählte Frauen vergewaltigt. Und vielen Überlebenden sind die Schrecken jener Zeit noch immer gegenwärtig, als wäre alles erst gestern geschehen."--IIIraute (talk) 21:23, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The 2 million figure is in the article more than one time. Please do not cherry-pick just that 2 million figure and misstate the meaning of that speech--Woogie10w (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not, I finished the quotation with the part you deliberately did choose to leave out. When quoting, one shouldn't take the quotation out of its original context (like you did) - and the meaning of the speech is "Flucht und Vertreibung" at the meeting with the "Bund der Vertriebenen" - and that's what this article should be about - and not that constant POV pushing done by some editors here. By the way - did you disregard the "15 million" figure deliberately? --IIIraute (talk) 22:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I did not deliberately did choose to leave out those remarks, I wanted to highlight the fact that a German government official made a direct and unambigious  connection between Nazi war crimes and the expulsions.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:43, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The bottom line here is that I do not consider the remarks of the German president on the background of the expulsions as Spam and in posting them here do not consider them POV pushing.--Woogie10w (talk) 00:05, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The way in which the addition to the lead paragraph was done earlier, was Spam, and certainly was out of context → . Several of your last edits on this page have been very selective, for example changing the "2,25 million" numbers to "2 million", or to "up to 2 million" - very much in disregard of the sources that are known to you. Also, you do choose to ignore the 15 million figure, and only very reluctantly, you did accept the 14 million figure. What you did, with your re-write, is pointing at the victims, before explaining their own suffering - basically saying: "well, it was your own fault, wasn't it".
 * "Wir müssen der Opfer gedenken und dafür sorgen, dass es die letzten waren. Jede Nation hat das selbstverständliche Recht, um sie zu trauern, und es ist unsere gemeinsame Verpflichtung, dafür zu sorgen, dass Erinnerung und Trauer nicht missbraucht werden, um Europa erneut zu spalten. Deshalb darf es heute keinen Raum mehr geben für Entschädigungsansprüche, für gegenseitige Schuldzuweisungen und für das Aufrechnen der Verbrechen und Verluste." (same source)
 * "Es ist Gottes Wille, der Deutschland und Polen zu Nachbarn gemacht hat." (Pope John Paul II) --IIIraute (talk) 00:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately you do our neibourhood "difficult". Cold war hate propaganda cannot be the basis of EU cooperation.Xx236 (talk) 08:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)


 * You wrote Also, you do choose to ignore the 15 million figure, and only very reluctantly, you did accept the 14 million figure. Hello, a good friend of mine here in New York is included in the 15 million, he was born in the USA.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:39, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe you are right, but what is true and what isn't, is not for you to decide - when using a source, you shouldn't cherry-pick some details, and neglect others that are a part of the very same source. Personally I would like to see similar enthusiasm of you, working on the lead-paragraph and body of the corresponding articles: Generalplan Ost, Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles, and Occupation of Poland (1939–45), for example. Don't you think that the direct and unambigious connection between Nazi war crimes and the expulsions as a consequence should be mentioned there as well? ...just to give you an idea.--IIIraute (talk) 03:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Please let me rephrase: So you think, that because you have a friend from New York who supposedly was involved in the expulsions, you have the right to ignore an official statement made by the President of Germany and to revise down that number by a million people. Do you really think, that's free of bias and this is still NPOV editing done by you? --IIIraute (talk) 03:32, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * You wrote when using a source, you shouldn't cherry-pick some details The Tertiary source in English A Terrible Revenge by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas is for all practical purposes the sole source of information available for those people who cannot read German. de Zayas provides only a brief summary of statistics taken from a 1967 West German report. I have used German language secondary sources and provided the details in these sources. Rather than spin a single figure of 14 or 15 million, I presented a summary of the data in Gerhardt Reichling's study. Readers will see yes there were 12 million expellees in 1950 but by 1982 the figure was 15 million. Readers will also see that Bonn counted childern born to expellees and emigrants after 1950.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Summarizing - Poles were expelled and murdered and Mr Köhler who replaced the racially lower Skierbieszów people tells stories about the cruelty of "The Expulsion". Xx236 (talk) 13:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * de:Aktion Zamość to make place for Germans
 * Family Köhler comes from Besarabien
 * Horst Köhler was born in Heidenstein, Generalgouvernement, heute Skierbieszów (in fact always Skiebieszów, Germans renamed many places in Poland)
 * German settlers in Zamość area wore black uniformes, so local Poles called them "Blacks". Many of them participated in anti-partisan actions and forced to work Polish sklaves, rather than to work themselves.
 * "flüchtete die Familie, wie Millionen anderer Deutscher, in Richtung Westen"

in Yugoslavia most emigrated to West Germany
Wouldn't from be better?Xx236 (talk) 08:08, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

the Allies decided to deport the German minorities ?!

 * There were two parts of the "project":
 * removal of German minorites (were the Germans a minority in Czechoslovakia being the second nation and a majority in Sudeten ?);
 * moving Poland West.
 * Degermanization was only one domino piece of the game, tens of nations were transferred during and after the war, mostly in the areas controlled by the Soviets. Western Germany being outside the system was the only nation able to document the crimes. Western Germany organized the propaganda campaign called "Vertreibung", effects of which are partially visible in this Wikipedia. Expulsion of Germans but Deportation of the Crimean Tatars (around 45% of the total population died in the process of the deportation) or Polish population transfers (1944–46). I find this language extremely biased, based on money and political influence of Germany. Xx236 (talk) 07:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Istrian exodus and Foibe killings are close to this Flight and expulsion of Germans.Xx236 (talk) 08:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The legacy
The article doesn't inform about many aspects of the legacy:
 * Charta der deutschen Heimatvertriebenen
 * Erika Steinbach
 * Flight and expulsion in German popular culture:
 * CrabwalkXx236 (talk) 08:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I just discovered this article
and while fascinated by it, am a little. . .. disgruntled that there are no references anywhere in the first several paragraphs. I know how difficult it is to go back and add those, and I have no inclination to put citation needed tags all over the place, but is a reference per paragraph asking too much? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 19:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The first several paragraphs are called the lede that summarizes the article. The references will be found in the detailed sections of the article--Woogie10w (talk) 19:58, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Carptrash (talk) 20:19, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The revenge of former slave workers
http://jch.sagepub.com/content/40/3/483

The article describes situation in Western Germany, however the same hatred to German masters was created everywhere. Xx236 (talk) 11:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

No Background
The article doesn't explain the context - German genocide, national policy, forced migrations, extermination of social leaders and of educated people (eg. in Poland). This lack of context is needed to impress the reader. Only the final part of the article explains "Reasons and justifications for the expulsions". Any text should have a beginning, main part and finish. Here we have main part and only later comes the beginning. American readers know very little about war in Eastern Europe and this article hardly helps them to understand. Xx236 (talk) 12:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC) causing resentment towards German-speakers in general - the main source of the resentment was German administration, law, police rather than local Germans.Xx236 (talk) 11:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

If you read the first few paragraphs, the WWII and nazi context is very much there. However, how much and what context is appropriate is open to debate. Some might argue that Versailles needs to be included - it undoubtably promoted the rise of nazism. For Wikipedia it is better to focus on the actual subject of a page, providing only short introductions on the background, which can be followed on other Wikipedia pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.212.198 (talk) 15:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

the largest movement or transfer of any single ethnic population in European history
The statement is false - Slavs (Czechs from Lower Silesia, Sorbs from Eastern Lusatia, Slowinzen, Silesians, some Kashubians, Masurians and Warmiaks) were among the refugees. So no single population. Some Germans had mixed roots, eg. Peter Glotz had Czech mother. Xx236 (talk) 10:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, loyalty to a nation would be a better fit. Between Germans and Poles, for example, the divide was not as sharp as many believe (or the nazis liked). There were areas whose protestant inhabitants had Polish surnames but German first names, who spoke Polish at home and in casual conversations but German at more formal occasions, and who were loyal to Germany - and thus got expelled, too. Over the centuries, many protestant Poles and Lithuanians re-settled to protestant Prussia for their religious affiliation, which meant more to them than their ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.106.109.24 (talk) 20:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

expulsion vs ethnic cleansing
For germans wikipedia uses population transfer and expulsion yet for other nationalities it uses ethnic cleansing (see rwanda genocide).The definition of ethnic cleansing is: eth·nic cleans·ing-The mass expulsion or killing of members of an ethnic or religious group in a society.If millions of Germans were murdered and expelled after the war because of their nationality then it would make sense to use "ethnic cleansing of Germans" as the Lead for the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookft (talk • contribs) 21:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Millions of Germans weren't murdered after the war. The majority of the alleged expulsion victims died during the war. Xx236 (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

No "militia" but Milicja Obywatelska
Please don't use the vague "militia" describing Poland. Milicja Obywatelska was planned to be a higly centralized Communist police, see also Militsiya. Xx236 (talk) 07:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC) Other terror organisations were Internal Security Corps and Ministry of Public Security (Poland).Xx236 (talk) 08:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Kaliningrad area
The statement "The West German Red Cross also estimated 110,000 German civilians were held as forced labor in Kaliningrad Oblast, where 50,000 were dead or missing." doesn't probably belong to the Poland section. Does the source state that the Germans came from Poland or were they local?Xx236 (talk) 09:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Transfer of Soviet prisoners

 * Toszek was a transfer camp, Germans were transported from the West and later to the SU. http://niepoprawni.pl/blog/208/lagry-nkwd-na-slasku Xx236 (talk) 10:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Toszek: from July 1945 the NKVD brought in thousands more prisoners from the Bautzen area of Saxony. Sybille Krägel[4] from Saxony, whose father died in the Tost prison, and others, traced the prisoner lists and over 4500 are identified by now with 800 more yet unidentified;Xx236 (talk) 10:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

German propaganda
This article describes crimes against Germans out of the context of post-WWII situation. Please remeber that Thomas Urban is a journalist and Zaremba is a professional historian. Post-war Poland was a terrible place for anyone, not only for Germans. The current form of the article misinforms Western readers. Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC) The German book describes the situation in Wrocław.Xx236 (talk) 10:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Reasons of the high mortality of Germans in Poland

 * During the war Poles and Jews in General Gouvernment used to live in bad sanitary conditions. Many of them died but the survivors became resistant. People living in the Reich (both Old Reich and Annexed lands) weren't exposed to infectious diseases. In 1945 the border between GG and Reich perished and people in former Reich became exposed to the diseases. Both Poles and Germans were dying. (My source is Zaremba.)
 * Germans exterminated Jewish doctors (48% of pre-war doctors in Poland) and medical staff. (I'm looking for the 48% source)
 * Germans didn't allow Poles and Jews to study medicine. (All Polish universities were closed during the war.)
 * Germans destroied Polish industry and economy, so almost no drugs were produced in Poland.(I'm looking for sources)
 * Many doctors were drafted, so only few were available for civilians.Xx236 (talk) 07:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

This is your original research. If the above points were correct the Polish population would have a similar high mortality in 1945-46, however that is not the case. The Polish mortality rate in 1946 was 1.1% compared to the 1939 figure of 1.37%. --Woogie10w (talk) 12:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * People died mostly in 1945 and you bring 1946 data.
 * Zaremba is and academic book.
 * What is my OR - lack of doctors, lack of drugs, lack of hospitals, infectious diseases?
 * The average infant mortality was 12% in 1946 and I doubt the authorities obtained reliable data from villages or Wild West.Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Look for V_01-Zabadala.pdf :"The article presents the sanitary-epidemiological state in Gdansk from 30 March to 31 December1945. The destruction of war and population movements caused the occurrence of several diseases, of which typhoid fever, typhus and dysentery took the size of the epidemic. The information presented allowto roughly estimate the scale of the problem and assess the effectiveness of the action taken against the epidemic." 1100 prisoners of different nationalities died in one prison in Gdańsk Xx236 (talk) 07:16, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Official data 1946 - deaths 241 800, of which 72 500 babies. Which gives 169 300 deaths of adults and children, 0,7%. Fascinating result, a land practically without Death. In Bydgoszcz since February 5 till July 25 1945 554 children (0-2 years) died. Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * A paper by Zaremba http://laboratorium.wiez.pl/teksty.php?zaremba&p=10: mortality among babies 20-25%, 40-45% in families arriving from the SU, in Kielce region 1945 a source says 90%.Xx236 (talk) 08:32, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * in 1945 at least 20 000 people died of typhus or typhoid fever .Xx236 (talk) 08:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Please readNo original research

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research.--Woogie10w (talk) 08:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/2425/WA51_13508_r2005-nr5_Monografie.pdf pages 177 and 178 explains the miracle of law mortality after the war - lack of reliable data.Xx236 (talk) 13:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Deportation of Germans is not mentioned.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have answered your story "The Polish mortality rate in 1946 was 1.1%". It wasn't and the source is poor research. Once more - read Zaremba to understand the problem. Gawryszewski describes shortly the situation in Poland, in which both Poles and Germans lived and died. Ignoring the context is like criticizing ancient Greece that it forced the soldier to run from Marathon to Athene instead to use a phone.Xx236 (talk) 13:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Zaremba is a self published page on the internet, not a reliable source--Woogie10w (talk) 15:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Please respect the rules: "Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications. " and Zatremba has published a 700 pages academic book. Xx236 (talk) 11:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Please tell us what pages of Wielka trwoga supports your assertion--Woogie10w (talk) 11:08, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Also the web page you cite does not mention the expulsion of the Germans, you are attempting a synthesis of published material to advance your POV--Woogie10w (talk) 11:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I admit, my POV is the Truth rather than ignorance.
 * The book contains a division about the expulsion of Germans. And the division is in the context of the whole book. Xx236 (talk) 11:27, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the Savage Continent by Lowe? It describes the situation in Europe, including Poland.Xx236 (talk) 11:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello, did you ever see the actual book and read the section about the expulsion of Germans? If you did please tell us the citation that supports your assertion--Woogie10w (talk) 11:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Flight and expulsion of ethnic Czech people from Kłodzko region
http://www.cesky-dialog.net/clanek/4813-cesky-koutek-v-kladsku/


 * 2709 ethnic Czech people moved from Kłodzko region to Czechoslovakia 1945-1947. An unknown number of ethnic Czech people moved to Germany.Xx236 (talk) 12:20, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The majority of Gęsiniec ethnic Czech people moved to Czechoslovakia and Germany .Xx236 (talk) 12:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Need to verify Wielka trwoga
I will try to get to library this week to verify source Wielka trwoga. Please tell us what pages of Wielka trwoga supports this edit

in addition to similar acts by Soviet soldiers and criminal gangs grouping Poles, Soviet marauders, Germans and Ukrainians,  that were neither prevented nor prosecuted by the newly organised Milicja Obywatelska and judiciary, who weren't also able to defend Polish civilians.

When the page citation is provided I will verify what is claimed in the edit. put up or shut up --Woogie10w (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the point. It's impossible to verify without a proper citation/quotation. HerkusMonte (talk) 15:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My father was born in the USA, he would say Shit or get off the pot--Woogie10w (talk) 20:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The book describes anarchy in Soviet occuped post-war Poland. It contains about 700 pages describing different aspects. Pages 561-573 are exclusively about the fate of Germans and it's not a big job to find them (page 9). Xx236 (talk) 09:25, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Please name one war child
Frida Lyngstad is probably the only war child known internationally. There are some activists in Norway. Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Background - extreme POV
The article should inform about German Nazi crimes in the area, including the Holocaust, which made post-war coexistence with Germans difficult or impossible. Now the article accuses nationalists. The main nationalists were German ones.Xx236 (talk) 06:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC) Soviets, who designed and implemented the expulsions were quite internationalistic. Xx236 (talk) 07:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

If you actually read the article, you will find that the word nationalist is used only in the context of ethnic Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.212.198 (talk) 15:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

As long as there is a constant finger-pointing at Germans you can´t get a reliable source. Such articles are useless and a waste of time.--85.181.52.175 (talk) 11:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

while the Soviets gained applause among Eastern Europeans
Please explain the meaning of the phrase. I believe it's too general if not false. The Red Army supported sometimes Germans against other ethnicities. The Soviets murdered or imprisoned non-Germans Augustów roundup. Xx236 (talk) 09:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

the largest movement or transfer of any population in modern European history
It's German nationalistic propaganda:
 * more people were moved in the Soviet Union during the collectivisation;
 * more people run away and were moved in the SU during the German invasion 1941-1943.
 * The subject was discussed in March, no results.

Xx236 (talk) 14:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.soviethistory.org/index.php?page=subject&SubjectID=1943evacuation&Year=1943 current estimates range from 17 to 25 million evacuees
 * http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09668139108411943?journalCode=ceas19
 * http://www.southsaxons.com/staff/staff/hc/Effects%20of%20the%20Five%20Year%20Plans%20Chart.pdf 1926-36 "20 million workers move to cities" plus 6-8 millions of dead people (Great Hunger) plus deported to Siberia.Xx236 (talk) 14:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

We cannot compare the two historical episodes. The Soviet wartime evacuations were temporary, the population returned after the war. The German expulsions were permanent.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * And your source is?


 * Neither the Soviet evacuations were totally temporary nor the German ones were totally permanent. The evacuated Soviet men were frequently drafted and died, other workers starved or froze or died in accidents or were imprisoned or settled in the East or were transfered to other places both in Siberia and in annexed areas. The return of Soviet people to their 1941 homes never has been a goal of Soviet policy. Especially when the homes and whole cities perished.
 * Transfers during the collectivisation and industrialization were also permanent, the peasant class was to perish.
 * Forced transers are forced transfers. Transfer of Germans isn't in any way more important than transfer of Slavs. The transfers inside Soviet Union weren't generally better than transfers from Soviet lands to Western Germany. The main difference was that many Soviet people were prepared to survive in Soviet world and formerly Nazi Germans were vulnerable, eg. massively died of typhus or typhoid fever. Many Germans deported to the SBZ/DDR run away to the BRD and many run away outside Europe to cliam they are unhappy in the USA or Canada, because they are expellees. Xx236 (talk) 13:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW the largest movement or transfer of any population in modern European history doesn't say anything about more or less permanent. Xx236 (talk) 14:35, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

German population transfer isn't permenant. As citizens of EU any Germans that are still alive and that lived in these territories can return to Czech Republic or Poland as there is a free movement of people in EU. Of course I am sure that if for example any of the 1 million Nazi administrators and colonists included in figures of expelled that are still alive would like to reveal themselves to either countries authorities, said authorities would be very interested.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The content is based on reliable, published secondary sources that reflect the current historiographic consensus among the majority of historians. All the yadda yadda yadda above is WP:SYNTH & WP:NOR.


 * En passant: The Soviet Union was a state on the Eurasian continent, covering a sixth of the Earth's land surface. The European portion accounted for less than a quarter of the country's area. --77.181.80.35 (talk) 16:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant since the movement of people happened in European part.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:57, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The European portion accounted for less than a quarter of the country's area - would you please check how many Soviet people used to live in Europe in 1941, after annexations? There is no obvious connection between the area and population. Xx236 (talk) 08:34, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140100797910 To the Tashkent Station

''Evacuation and Survival in the Soviet Union at War Rebecca Manley Cornell University Press

Winner of the 2010 Bruce Lincoln Book Prize given by the Association for Slavic, East European, and Eurasian Studies (ASEEES)

(...)brilliantly reconstructs the evacuation of over sixteen million Soviet civilians in one of the most dramatic episodes of World War II.''

Dear Experts, please respect facts and human tragedies. Xx236 (talk) 08:47, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of ..., page 77, 10 mln - 20 mln evacuated. Xx236 (talk) 08:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The Soviet population movements are a separate case that is not at all related to the German expulsions. Between 1928-1939 23 million people were deported or migrated in the USSR according to the 1946 study by Frank Lormier. The wartime movements in the USSR are more complicated because some of the 20 million persons who were evacuated during the war did not return to the western regions because the whole area was devestated. I have spoken to older persons from the former Soviet Union who told me that the Soviet press ran ads in the 1950's by persons seeking to trance missing persons. --Woogie10w (talk) 11:59, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * If you write about the largest transfer ouside the SU, you should write the largest outside the SU. You cannot write the largest but to keep the context hidden. Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello: If you write about the largest transfer ouside the SU, you should also consider the case of Poland and surf the web for sources. This is Wikipedia my original research never hits this talk page.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:11, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * 16.5 is more than 14. Xx236 (talk) 14:05, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Please provide a source that the number only refers to movements within the European part of the Soviet Union. --77.10.79.129 (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Germany and their allies attacked the European part of the Soviet Union in 1941. It's your task to prove that the Soviets evacuated pepople from Asia to save them from the Germans. How did the Soviets win the war if they didn't even know the place of fights? Xx236 (talk) 08:19, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

== However, the position of the German government, the German Federal Agency for Civic Education and the German Red Cross is that the death toll in the expulsions is between 2.0 and 2.5 million civilians. ==

German authorities say always "Flucht und Vertreibung" (flight and expulsion), so not in the expulsions but in the flights and expulsions. Xx236 (talk) 07:48, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Percentage wise comparison with Jews removed by Nazi Germany for extermination
I think if we would look at the percentage of population the movement of Jews for extermination by Nazi Germany would be larger than the movement of Germans for new life in Germany.Does anyone know the percentage of European Jews that was ethnically cleansed for murder by German state in WW2? --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:59, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * 67% of European Jews died (The Holocaust), many others run away or were moved by Germans. Xx236 (talk) 07:55, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

it was the largest movement or transfer of any single ethnic population in European history
People who run away or were expelled weren't of single ethnicity. Ségolène Plyer Paris I (Panthéon-Sorbonne) - Humboldt-Universität (Berlin)“A village divided - Integration of Sudetan Germans in Eastern and Western Germany 1945 - 1989“ "The folk groups from the East and those in the West German territory were presented as being from the same family.  The fact that these particularities were often signs of cultural cross-pollination with the Slav neighbours was left unspoken." Xx236 (talk) 09:12, 14 December 2013 (UTC) There existed also nationally mixed families among the Germans, especially the ones with a German husband/father. Xx236 (talk) 09:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * die Konfrontation der Ostvertriebenen mit dem Rassismus und der offenen Feindseligkeit vieler Einheimischer - so the Germans were sometimes rejected as an another race.Xx236 (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2013 (UTC) Details .Xx236 (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * According to Douglas about 10% of the Germans had language problems (please check in the English edition the exact wording, I'm using a Polish translation).Xx236 (talk) 07:26, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

what page in Douglas?--Woogie10w (talk) 11:00, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph of Chapter 11. I have the Polish edition so my numbers of pages are different.Xx236 (talk) 09:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The primary mother tongue of many of the expellees was their national language(Hungarian, Czech, Serbo-Croatian ect.) they spoke German dialects such as Swabian German that are not intelligible with standard modern German. The Germans from Poland that I have known also spoke Polish but fled their homes because they would have been imprisoned in Poland as Volksdeutsch. --Woogie10w (talk) 11:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What does the nationalistic source prove? That some German people hate Polish people? Schwarzbuch as a source.
 * "because they would have been imprisoned in Poland as Volksdeutsch" - prove that ethnic Poles weren't imprisoned in Soviet dominated Poland. My uncle died in the UK and has never visited Poland after the war like thousands of other Kresy Poles. He wasn't a Volksdeutsch. Xx236 (talk) 13:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "The primary mother tongue of many of the expellees was their national language" - it's exactly what I'm writing here. There were also many ethnically mixed families. The non-Germans were obliged to learn German in Germany, with the exception of ill people.Xx236 (talk) 13:36, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Gerard Cieślik was a Volksdeutsch, a Wehrmachtsoldier and didn't emigrate to Germany.Xx236 (talk) 13:40, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Does the Agency or Bernd Faulenbach ?
One text written by Bernd Faulenbach isn't an official statement of the Agency. Bernd Faulenbach has never worked for the Agency. Xx236 (talk) 14:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

New maps
If "The extent of German farmer settlement up to the 14th century. The map also shows German city foundations" so why not a map of Nazi camps ? It was also the background. I don't see however any serious map of Nazi camps in Eastern Germany, see List of subcamps of Gross-Rosen.Xx236 (talk) 08:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte
I am currently reading ''Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte'' by Hans Henning Hahn and Eva Hahnova. The arguments outlined in the book will go a long way to improve this article. The authors are telling a German audience that they have been subjected to a stream of hysterical German nationalist propaganda regarding the expulsions. The Hahn's have analyzed the accounts published in postwar West Germany pointing out that they are are ahistorical propaganda and that the topic of the expulsions needs to be subject to a critical reevaluation. They make a convincing argument that needs to be outlined on this page. Once I finish the book I hope to include their arguments in this article. German is not my mother tounge so it is a slow but I must say very interesting read. I strongly urge persons who read German to get the book. ''Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte'' is an important book that needs to be outlined for English readers who have been fed a diet of regurgitated postwar West German nationalist propaganda regarding the expulsions e.g. A Terrible Revenge.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:15, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

It is one person's opinion. The author is known for promoting the notion that most of the uncomfortable historical truths are myths. This article is already so full of nonsense and falsehoods that it is farcical. It's just another wikipedia soapbox for a propaganda viewpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.122.14 (talk) 23:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Who is the author? Hahn and Hanova or Woogie10w? Xx236 (talk) 12:49, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It would seem
It would seem that it is without legal foundation to expell long domiciled people from an area which had recently come under internationally approved "temporary administration". For example, a "temporary administration" could be pending a final Peace Treaty and Border adjustment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 (talk) 13:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

An exception might be the Soviet "temporary administered" northern part of the former German province of East Prussia (which BTW was in that status for 45 years, from August, 1945 to Sept. 12, 1990 when the Two-Plus-Four Peace Treaty was signed). There was nothing in the Potsdam Agreement about Soviet expulsion of ethnic Germans other than what could be made out of the following words: "The United States and Britain declared that they would support the transfer of Königsberg and the adjacent area to the Soviet Union at the peace conference." Note: the referenced peace conference occurred 45 years later as the Two-Plus-Four Treaty of September 12, 1990. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 (talk) 13:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not the right place to present your opinions.Xx236 (talk) 13:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

O.K., per International Law, the Soviet Union and Poland operated as "Temporary Administrators" of the German lands within Germany's 1937 internationally recognized borders East of the Oder-Western Neisse Line from the end date of the Potsdam Conference (August 2, 1945) until 45 years later when the Two-Plus-Four Peace Treaty was signed on Sept. 12, 1990. That's not an opinion -- that's a FACT.


 * Please don't present here your opinions. It's the FACT.Xx236 (talk) 07:22, 23 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Methinks you don't understand International Law . . . International Law governs treaties. There are lawyers who specialize in International Law, although there was limited need for such people in the Soviet Empire. It is a FACT that the Potsdam Treaty stipulated, for example, that the final Western border of Poland would be determined at the Peace Treaty for Germany.  That Peace Treaty did not occur until Sept. 12, 1990, 45 years after the August 2, 1945 end of the Potsdam Conference.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 (talk) 13:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)


 * NATO and the US did not publicly support the West German position re: Oder Neisse & the Sudetenland during the cold war. This meant for all practical purposes the de facto recognition of the post war borders of Poland and Czechoslovakia. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:36, 23 May 2014 (UTC)


 * De facto is not de jure. Also, since no mention was made at Potsdam re CZ border adjustments (which in fact had been surprisingly floated by some prior to Potsdam) there was no issue re CZ borders upon the signing of the Potsdam Agreement.  The door was left open at Potsdam for a Final German-Polish Border adjustment at the future German Peace Treaty re such matters as the Eastern Neisse . . . Of course, none of the Potsdam participants envisoned a 45 year interim until the German Peace Treaty (BTW, the Soviets could have cared less re how long it took for a German Peace Treaty since they knew that reparations agreements and settlements had to go on in the immediate future regardless of such a treaty).  During those 45 years the United States never stopped supporting a German Peace Treaty.  Nor did the United States support The Netherlands when they wanted to annex German territory after World War Two. From Wikipedia: "The [Bakker-Schut Plan] was largely dropped after U.S. dismissal of it."  The resolution between West Germany and The Netherlands took until 1963, which was almost 20 years after 1945 i.e., "almost all" the German land was returned by The Netherlands.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 (talk) 07:19, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Czech resistance to Nazi occupation
According to the article Czech resistance was destroied by the Nazis, so who planned the expulsion of Germans?Xx236 (talk) 07:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The Czech exile government in London did . . . but you already knew that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 (talk) 11:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Sir, this talk page is not a blog about the topic. Post only suggestions for changes to the article that are supported by reliable sources and can be verified. You are advised to read Identifying reliable sources as a guide. Your personel comments may be deleted from this page. --Woogie10w (talk) 11:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

The lead
The lead summarises the article rather than presents unsourced or biased views.Xx236 (talk) 07:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Background - Germans murdered both Jews and educated Poles
Xx236 (talk) 06:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * How many?
 * Germans murdered also uneducated Poles, eg. the handicapped ones.
 * Background isn't about the Potsdam Agreement.

the former Austria-Hungary - German POV
The former Austria-Hungary wasn't a part of Germany.Xx236 (talk) 13:32, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Number of transfers
The Nazis transferred many Germans before the 1944 period. It seems sensible to include a section on those transfers. They may be seen as a kind of intermediate between flight and expulsions.

Imersion (talk) 15:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Lower bound of deaths
The article uses a lower bound of 500,000 but in the very next line suggests 473,000. OK, that may be an upward rounding but seems inappropriate in the context. In Fact, Hahn and Hahn in their excellent 2010 summary suggest a lower bound of 400,000, and that seems more appropriate. If no one objects, I will change the number within a month.

Imersion (talk) 15:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

This is not correct, you need to cite the page in Hahn and Hahn that support the figure of "400,000"--Woogie10w (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The figure of "400,000" comes from the 1974 German Archives study for the Oder-Neisse region only. The Hahn's cite this figure on page 723--Woogie10w (talk) 15:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

"Volksdeutsche" is a Nazi, racist term and not appropriate for this article
"Volksdeutsche" combines the Nazi, racist ideology of "Blut and Boden" and a common German race to replace "Ausland Deutsche". If it is to be used, this racist innuendo in the term needs to be explained, but it is better not to use it at all. The better German term is, as in English, "ethnische Deutsche".

Imersion (talk) 15:27, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with your point, the term "Volksdeutsche" reaaly needs to be explained and then replaced with ethnic German. As an editor I never use this description--Woogie10w (talk) 16:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

My Version of Hahn and Hahn Lists Eve Hahn, not Hahnova
Whoever listed her as Hahnova knows more about her ethnicity than I do, perhaps, but the reference is wrong, and I have changed it.

Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern : Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte / Eva Hahn, Hans Henning Hahn. Paderborn : Schöningh, c2010. 839 p. : ill., maps ; 24 cm.     D820.P72 G475 2010 ISBN: 9783506770448 -- 3506770446 Imersion (talk) 15:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

BTW I have the book also--Woogie10w (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It's true about the specific book, but at least one book was published by Hahn and Hahnová, which is Czech form for a wife of Hahn.Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Rebuttal
who on their way to post-war Germany - doesn't the phrase suggest that the victims died post-war? The majority of them died during the war. Is it possible to travel to post-war land before its borders had been defined?Xx236 (talk) 08:16, 18 September 2014 (UTC) The numbers of victims include Germans who died when travelling to the East, the article doesn't cover such returns.Xx236 (talk) 08:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

German ethnicity - Expulsions from Norway, Poland and Czechoslovakia
Women who married Germans were expelled from Norway to Germany after the war. In Poland and Czechoslovakia mixed marriages were expelled when the husband was German, German wives were allowed to stay. So the ethnicity wasn't in-born. Xx236 (talk) 11:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The Holocaust should be mentioned in the lead
The area of the flight and expulsion is generally the area of the Holocaust and many expelled Germans had participated in the Holocaust. The Holocaust is mentioned later in the article, too late to understand the context.Xx236 (talk) 10:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

NKVD special camps in Germany 1945–49
NKVD special camps in Germany 1945–49 (wrong title, many camps were situated outside Germany) were a part of the Soviet structure, many prisoners were transported to the SU and died there or returned after several years.Xx236 (talk) 08:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Tags
The recent tags

Lets discuss these points or else remove them. It is not fair to tag the article and run if you have issues with it's content--Woogie10w (talk) 13:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Who's running. I put two of those tags (but not as far as I know ) because I think they belong, given the length of the article and the exposition of so many different opinions by eminent historians, demographers, politicians, etc, it is unavoidable that POV and non-neutral language are going to sink in. If you want to remove them, say so and give a reason.  Quis separabit?  15:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I want to remove them in future unless you can specifically outline the changes that you want to make. What are the sections that you would like to remove? Please identify the unavoidable POV and non-neutral language rather than make a blanket statement. Lets make an effort to improve the article. What do you propose?--Woogie10w (talk) 15:28, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, you don't have to wait on me if/when you are convinced the tags are outdated. I'll look for some specific instances of non-neutrality/POV but it's a really long article. Yours, Quis separabit?  18:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

The first mass exodus of German civilians (...), starting in the summer of 1944
The statement is false. According to de:Schwarzmeerdeutsche the evacuation started in the 1943.Xx234 (talk) 10:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Allied atrocities in Germany 1945 -1950
i found this article http://www.rense.com/general85/mill.htm

and has references to a then banned book on allied atrocities way beyond current official death and casualty tolls that rivalize the jewish hollocaust itself. One book is "Gruesome Harvest" by Ralph Franklin Keeling.

I know it could be exagerated, but, if somebody read this article or the whole book, should contribute to wikipedia expanding this article. vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/KEELINGgruesom.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.224.109.135 (talk) 03:01, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Death marches (Holocaust) and de:Endphaseverbrechen
Endphaseverbrechen belong (at least partially) to the Flight of Germans. Not even mentioned in this article.Xx234 (talk) 08:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC) ''Typische Täter waren Angehörige staatlicher Organe und nationalsozialistischer Organisationen wie Gestapo, SS sowie der Wehrmacht, nach Blatmans zusammenfassender Studie oft Zivilisten aus HJ, Volkssturm, Wachmänner irgendwelcher Herkunft und auch unorganisierte Bürger.  - the German Wikipedia describes who committed Nazi crimes in 1945 - please compare with biased/simplified civilians and soldiers''.Xx234 (talk) 08:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

the local indigenous population refers to Polish citizens who were ethnic Germans
The autochtones were frequently bilingual, speaking Slavic at home. They preferred German organization, so they voted for Germany and later emigrated, but their German ethnicity was frequently rejected in Germany, the same like expelled Poles were unpopular in Poland. A specific problem were German wives of Poles.Xx236 (talk) 06:15, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

What do Polish sources tell us about the fate of these people from 1948-1956?--Woogie10w (talk) 19:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) till 1949 http://www.ceneo.pl/8732957
 * 2) http://www.ceeol.com/aspx/issuedetails.aspx?issueid=9178225b-4acf-4ea2-9941-932e0fb069c1&articleId=63d73e40-55c1-45d8-b36f-dee395f4cbeb
 * 3) http://www.ceik.eu/ostatni-warmiacy-i-mazurzy.html

Please remember that the majority of citizens of "People's Republic of Poland" was persecuted 1948-1956: peasants, former landowners and capitalists, former officers and policemen, even communists including Władysław Gomółka. The source 2 describes the conflict in Opole Silesia between locals and newcomers. Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Please make edits to fix this. Be bold.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The autochtones - (former) German Reich citizens living in German-Polish borderlands declaring Polish ethnicity (pl:Autochton quotes A.Sakson. Mazurzy - społeczność pogranicza. Wydawnictwo Instytutu Zachodniego. Poznań 1990) Xx236 (talk) 07:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
 * My edit The indigenous population were former German citizens who declared Polish ethnicity. Some of them died in camps or were expelled to Germany, some were accepted. Some of the accepted emigrated later to Germany as German or declared German ethnicity in Poland. Xx236 (talk) 08:37, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There existed two different groups:


 * pre-war Polish citizens, who joined the Volksliste, were drafted to Wehrmacht, sometimes Waffen SS. Eager Nazis among them run away themselves. Polish citizens were prosecuted as traitors. (Polish Upper Silesia, Corridor)
 * the indigenous, pre-war German citizens, who declared Polish ethnicity. Many of them were imprisoned in post-war camps, many died. (German Upper Silesia)
 * Both groups from Upper Silesia were kidnapped to Soviet mines.Xx236 (talk) 13:43, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

single ethnic population in European history

 * Neither Kacowicz nor Lutomski are experts.
 * Ethnic based crimes aren't more important than other crimes.
 * Probably more than 14 million Soviet people run away or were evacuated in 1941-1942. The same at least 50% of Germans run away or were evacuated 1944-1945.
 * The number of people murdered and deported inside the Soviet Union 1917-1938 was also higher than 14 million.
 * Some Germans believe to be main victims of German politics. It's fully understandable. Why do people accept however German propaganda? Xx236 (talk) 13:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Bi-lingual persons who were on the Volksliste
Who joined the Volksliste.Xx236 (talk) 13:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

marking unsourced material not commonly known
The problem has been presented and sourced in several articles here. Maybe a little linking would be helpul, but this article is big (243,632 bytes), so I'm not sure if any longer presentation is needed. Polish 	3,086,489 	5.48% (a figure that rises to over 6% when including the related Kashubian and Masurian languages).
 * Germany German Empire


 * Germanisation of Poles during the Partitions
 * Germanisation of the Province of Posen


 * Russia
 * Congress Poland Xx236 (talk) 06:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Please, regular interested editors
Do not allow further additions without accompanying citations, and begin to address the many strong statements that still appear without citations, 15 of which are marked by citation needed tags (several since December 2014). The existence of these, and the strength of the un-sourced statements, even if the material proves accurate, requires an article and inline tags, until the sources appear. Le Prof  Leprof 7272 (talk) 21:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree, we need to find reliable sources or delete these items--Woogie10w (talk) 20:02, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Changing the title
Current title: Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50) Proposed title: Flight and expulsion of Germans Reason: Dating of such event is highly debatable. Expulsion of Germans was only once in history, no need to add after/during/etc. World War 2. Ernio48 (talk) 23:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I tend to disagree because there was a major emmigration of Germans from East-Central Europe from 1919-39. This is another can of worms that does belong on this page--Woogie10w (talk) 00:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Any article about it? Plus, emmigration is not equavilent to expulsion/flight.Ernio48 (talk) 00:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * In fact many fled from Czechoslovakia during the 1938 crisis and also from Poland in 1939 before the war. This was a topic of Goebbels propaganda machine, also ethnic Germans fled from Hungary to escape the draft.--Woogie10w (talk) 00:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * In the Weimar Republic era there were organizations of Germans who fled from East Europe as well as German government protests at the League of Nations. This is another can of worms--Woogie10w (talk) 00:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Opposed. There was a clear singular refugee crisis propelled by the Soviet invasion from the east, and other major events near the end of the war. These clear, singular historical events in turn had global repercussions, with separation of families between east and west, with resettlement issues in countries where the "displaced persons" arrived, and with waves of immigration of the refugees to various countries, including in Australia, and South and North America. No, this is a singular period and set of events, and a specific article is fine. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 19:31, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Wasserstein describes the crisis European Refugee Movements After World War Two. The Flight and expulsion of Germans is a part of it, a nationalistic POV, part of cold war, rather than academic description. It's interesting if Leprof understands that his statement is true both for Germans and for all refugees. The difference was that the Germans arrived into their land (at least Western Germany) and Soviet citizens were frequently imprisoned and send to Gulag camps. Xx236 (talk) 12:51, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Is really clarification needed ?
composed mainly of historians with Nazi backgrounds - the subject is explained in Schieder commission. So please don't threaten with removal but copy the references.Xx236 (talk) 12:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

not verified in body
The long-term goal of Nazi Germany was to Germanize or eradicate the population of Poland, Czechoslovakia and certain western parts of the Soviet Union. -the next phrase is Nazi Germany's Generalplan Ost. Not enough?Xx236 (talk) 13:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Wilfried Krallert
de:Wilfried Krallert doesn't say anything about formal rehabilitation. He was POW 1945-1949, bur he wasn't accused.Xx236 (talk) 13:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

citation needed
Germany expelled non-Germans from the Sudetenland. From Sudetenland the Jews living in the Sudetenland were widely persecuted. Czech people were able to emigrate or to stay, I don't know the numbers. However, what the article doesn't say, thousands of German anti-Nazis run away.Xx236 (talk) 13:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Bernard Wasserstein
I'm not able to verify his 2007 text but his 2011 text is about European Refugee Movements After World War Two, not about Germans only. Xx236 (talk) 12:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC) See also the lead of this page: In the period 1944-1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe.Xx236 (talk) 13:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The BBC text is referenced several times as ref. 45. Xx236 (talk) 07:39, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Removed to talk
RE:

''During the war the long-term goal of Nazi Germany's Generalplan Ost  was to exterminate between 45-70 million "non-Germanizable" people in Poland, Czechoslovakia and the western parts of the Soviet Union. ''

I don't see how this has any bearing on the paragraph that this sentence was in. What does this have to do with the expulsions of the Germans after the war? There is no revenge factor or any other reason explained for how this relates. Headtransplant (talk) 21:48, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Please ask before you do something here, the subject is controversial.
 * Quite many mostly German authors present the German population to be totally unaware of Nazi crimes and totally irresponsible. Many German women participated however in Nazi crimes even if doing only office jobs for Holocaust and sklaves exploitation network. Concentration camps existed almost everywhere in the East, mistreated foreign workers were also visible. Xx236 (talk) 09:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Three references with errors since last year
Xx236 (talk) 14:11, 5 November 2015 (UTC) :

This article is a result of many discussions. Please don't impose your POV. Xx236 (talk) 06:45, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Edits by 46.189.28.*
The edits are controversial, both here and in another Nazi-related articles.Xx236 (talk) 06:50, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

German ancestry is unprecise
German Wikipedia says deutschsprachige Bewohner (German speaking). Formally the Nazi period life was considered, e.g. the Volksdeutsch class joined. Language and family were also important. In many cases reach people who declared to be Polish were expelled and their farms robbed, which wasn't legal but possible in the post-war chaos. Xx236 (talk) 06:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

deutschsprachige Bewohner means German speaking resident, that means anyone who speaks German. For example my American ancestors living in Pennsylvania in 1776 could read the Declaration of Independance, --Woogie10w (talk) 16:06, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Transit No 23, Numbers
Transit No 23, contains articles about ethnic cleansings.
 * Rainer Münz, Das Jahrhundert der Vertreibungen - numbers of expelled Germans. The author introduces group of Quasi-expelled.
 * Eva und Hans-Henning Hahn Eine zerklüftete Erinnerungslandschaft wird planiert. Die Deutschen, “ihre” Vertreibung und die sog. Benes-Dekrete - probably later published in their book.Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact defined Western border of the SU
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, later German–Soviet Border and Commercial Agreement defined Western border of the SU. It was the basis of the post-war borders of Poland, not the opinions of London. Poland had to obtain some former German land to settle the Polish refugees from the East. Poland was the only Allied nation which lost its land as the result of WWII, about 80 000 km2. Xx236 (talk) 08:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Poland, including former German territories
Moreover, in the Opole (Oppeln) region It's true that the Opole region has the majority of Germans in Poland, but the page German minority in Poland shows also Silesian Voivodeship, Warmia and Masuria.Xx236 (talk) 09:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

References 136 and 316 - errors
Xx236 (talk) 07:56, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Solved, not by me.Xx236 (talk) 11:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Hungary
31,923 Germans were transported to the SU according to the Order 7161. Here comes the text of the order. Only Deportation of Germans from Romania after World War II links the article about the order. Xx236 (talk) 11:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed overhaul of not one, but two articles
Even a quick glance at the state this article is in shows that it's probably not worth reading. The article looks like a landfil. Please see my comment at Talk:Flight and evacuation of Germans during the end of World War II about the possible best course of action. Content needs to be moved. We should have two separate articles of similar length instead of this one dumping ground. One of our articles should be devoted to war years (ending with the defeat of Nazi Germany), and a separate article should be devoted to postwar years (starting with the defeat of Nazi Germany) in 1945 whereas, the transfer of population was to a greater extend forced upon the Germans by the Allies.  Poeticbent  talk 17:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

You believe that the article is not worth reading, yet it had over 7,700 page views in the past 30 days. The best possible course of action is to improve it with reliable sources. The recent study by Hahn and Hahn as well as most German sources  treat the flight and expulsions as part of the same topic--Woogie10w (talk) 23:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Timothy Snyder tries to write neutral history. The idea of "Flight and expulsion of Germans" is completely different, nationalistic German. Germans were able to document their tragedy (when nations occupied by the Soviets constructed Blast furnaces and studied Stalin's writings) and to impose their narration accepted here till today. Please compare that The Holocaust is a relatively new idea comparing to The Explulsion. I don't have the Hahn and Hahn book, but according to some their texts available in the net they oppose the radical German mythology of The Expulsion: "Hahn und Hahn stellen selbst den Begriff “Vertreibung” in Frage, seien doch nur 4,8 Millionen Deutsche wirklich von den Alliierten vertrieben worden." . Erika Steinbach and Peter Glotz refurbished the post-Nazi narration using human rights language. Historically the first German propaganda books (by Jürgen Thorwald) described the flight (poorly organised by the Nazis) and Soviet crimes (some of the alleged crimes were in reality standard Soviet war actions, the Soviets didn't care about their civilians in the same way). As far as I remember Thorwald mentions the evacuation of the prisoners and forced workers, which in a strange way later perished. This article doesn't mention e.g. the Massacre of Palmnicken/Yantarny, which was a part of the evacuation.
 * Flight and expulsion of Germans is a German name:


 * 1) Not only Germans run away in 1945.
 * 2) Many "Germans" were bilingual Slaves.
 * 3) Some of the Germans run away with their families because they were involved in Nazi crimes so any non-German government would have punished them, Volenti non fit injuria.
 * 4) Soviet crimes took place also in the future DDR. Many Germans run away from Eastern Germany, so the reasons of the migrations were not only ethnic but also political and social. German land owners and capitalists were robbed in Eastern Germany in similar way like in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
 * 5) The parallel (sometimes more cruel) tragedy was the repatriation to the Soviet Union.
 * 6) The reader may believe that the Germans were the main victims of the Polish government. In reality Polish nationalists were massacred or imprisoned, Germans were rather enslaved and expelled but not killed by the government.Xx236 (talk) 09:28, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear. My proposal (from above) is to rebuilt from scratch three articles about three different subjects: These subjects are most emphatically separate from each other, divided by a major historical event itself, the German Instrument of Surrender in 1945. There would be no need to spell out "flight" in the new layout, because it would have been a tautology.  Poeticbent  talk 19:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) The German evacuations during World War II
 * 2) The German expulsions following World War II
 * 3) Emigration to Germany after World War II


 * Point 1-Prior to the German surrender the decision was made to expel the Germans. The Poles and Czechs in London proposed this in 1942 and it was confirmed at Yalta and Potsdam by the Allies.  Point 2- The war crimes of Hitler Germany and the collaboration of the  Volksdeutsch made the expulsions inevitable. The events of 1939-45 and 1946-50 are linked together by contemporary historians covering the topic.  --Woogie10w (talk) 19:41, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The Poles proposed also to return to Poland, to have Wilno and Lwów, to be free, to find Katyń killers,... . Please rremind me one thing the London government obtained. Polish borders were defined in 1939 by Soviet-Nazi treaties, Soviet Union annexed Eastern Poland so Poland had to obtain some land in the West, if it was 100 km more West or more East it's a technical detail, decided by Joseph Stalin. You theory about London government influencing Stalin is worth less than zero. Stalin staged his screenplay - governments, treaties, parties in Eastern Europe the GDR including. Xx236 (talk) 06:52, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Nothing wrong with that. The decision to formally "expel" the Germans made beforehand at Yalta and Potsdam by the allied powers can be included in the background to The German expulsions following World War II, because the postwar "expulsions" did not take place in a vacuum. Not mentioning this fact would be like trying to write about the Holocaust without mentioning Mein Kampf in the opening section of our article.  Poeticbent  talk  19:57, 16 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I am trying to cleanup this article, its like a dog picking up fleas. The big move I made was to move the Reasons and justifications for the expulsions section up to the top. Readers need to see why these events occurred rather than the chronicle of evacuations and expulsions. Over the years a lot of nonsense and outright POV has been plugged on this page. What a mess!!--Woogie10w (talk) 02:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The basic subject should be Post-WWII migrations in Eastern and Central Europe. Nothing called of Poles or of Germans doesn't describe what happened in general. If there exists one or five articles of Germans it's still the same pro-German or anti-German bias. The Germans were transferred by German governmnent since 1938, when Germans came from Czechoslovakia to Sudeten. Selecting some of those migrations should be based on neutral basis, not on Expulsion narration. The same Poles were brought to Germany since 1940 as prisoners or workers, so they were already present in Recovered Territories in May 1945. Germans were transported to the West and Polish refugees were transported to the East, do we really believe that going to Western Germany was a crime against humanity and going to Communist Poland was extremal happiness? Both economy and cruelty of the Polish government suggest that running away from Communism was sometimes better. Xx236 (talk) 06:39, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Poeticbent, what sources do you propose for your "overhaul" ? Lets talk about sources on this page! You wrote, Timothy Snyder tries to write neutral history. I own the book, lets discuss chap 10 of Bloodlands " Ethnic Cleansing"--Woogie10w (talk) 16:38, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi . I'm already working on the other article. I will be adding more sources as I go. See: . BTW, it was User:Xx236 who spoke about Snyder, not me. The idea is good, but please elaborate on it.  Poeticbent  talk 22:10, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * OMG, I took a peek at that Google books snippet, the figure of 825,000 comes from the 1953 Schieder report. Schieder cites WW2 Nazi documents as the source for his stats on evacuations. What sources does Bessel cite?--Woogie10w (talk) 22:30, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * What do you suggest? It looks like Bessel could either be quoting Andreas Hofmann or Wolfgang Schieder. Many pages are missing from the preview unfortunately. Chapter 4. Fleeing for their Lives (pp. 67-92). Note: 12. Andreas Hofmann, Gesellschafts- und Bevölkerungspolitik in den polnischen Siedlungsgebieten 1945-1948.  Poeticbent  talk 01:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The German numbers in Bessel come from Schieder and are soft as shit. In his footnotes to the evacuation data Schieder notes that he cannot guarantee numerical accuracy. Schieder includes in his total population base 2.0 million Reichdeutsch and ethnic German settlers in Poland. He claimed that 5.6 million "Germans" remained in Poland in mid 1945 and uses that base to compute his figure of 2 million expulsion dead. I cannot post my OR on Wikipedia but all I can do is advise extreme caution when using any figures on the evacuations that have a German source. Check Bessel's notes in the back on Google books. --Woogie10w (talk) 01:52, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Synder and Ray Douglas both detail the suffering of the German civilian population under the post war Polish regime. I wonder what kind of reception Douglas is getting in Poland, the Douglas POV is definitely not PC in Poland--Woogie10w (talk) 22:38, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * For the editors in Poland I recommend, Powojenne losy Niemców. Wypędzeni Autor:Douglas R. M. --Woogie10w (talk) 17:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * For the readers of Douglas I recommend academic review by Professor Piotr Madajczyk, unfortunately in Polish only. Douglas formułuje wnioski w odniesieniu do zagadnień, o których niewiele wie. odnosi się wrażenie, że niewiele wie on o sytuacji w Polsce i ekstrapoluje wiedzę o Czechosłowacji (I have written many times the same here). Douglas cooperated only with a linguist in Poland, and he lacked expertise in Polish matters. Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Many Polish historians cooperate with German ones and sometimes they prefer to publish books in Germany and books about Germans. The most radical Polish nationalistic historians work abroad - Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Halik Kochanski. Bogdan Musiał worked in Germany and later returned to Poland, which made him independent from local PC.
 * Mainstream media of Poland present Poles as bad people, which was PC till this year, when the majority of Poles rejected financing of such propaganda by the administration (directly or through government controlled business advertising). There is no PC to accept lower classes POV (our Afroamericans). Are there many books written by a WASPs criticizing Afroamericans? Xx236 (talk) 07:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Woogi writes: detail the suffering of the German civilian population under the post war Polish regime
 * What about the suffering of the Polish civilian population under the post-war regime? Why isn't it the subject of study in the USA? Because German people are our Western brethen and Poles are wild Slaves? The basic difference was that the majority of German refugees went to Western Germany for freedom and welfare and the Poles were already sentenced to Soviet system (state robbery, censorship, political humiliation, prisons and concentration camps) but misinformed and expelled from Western Europe. The division of Europe was the result of Teheran/Yalta/Potsadam conspiracy. Zaremba describes post-war Poland, unfortunately in Polish only and he lacks numbers, beacause there are no reliable demografic and economic data for the period 1939-1948. Xx236 (talk) 07:50, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

References supporting my former opinions

 * Review by Eva Hahn . Douglas: 10% of the refugees didn't speak German.
 * And the Holocaust continued Es ist unfassbar, aber selbst jetzt noch, mitten in Flucht und "Endkampf", ...Xx236 (talk) 11:54, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * '10% of the refugees didn't speak German'' True, but they were not included with the expellees, there were 543,000 foreign nationals in West Germany in 1951, apart from (not included with) with the expellees. The 12 million expellees were Germans in the eyes of German law, even though they could speak other languages besides German.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:56, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not at all obvious and Douglas doesn't explain the problem according to Eva Hahn. 10% of 12-13 million, 12,750,000 Expellees as defined by German law in 1950. What about mixed families?Xx236 (talk) 12:11, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * There was no survey of language spoken in the 1950 German census in the (FRG and DDR), it is logical to assume that some also spoke Polish or Hungarian, the bottom line is that they were considered Germans in the eyes of German law, some even decided to return to Poland after 1950. --Woogie10w (talk) 12:41, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If you mean Displaced persons camp - the inhabitants were rather former prisoners and forced workers.Xx236 (talk) 13:13, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * No, the West Germans said living outside of DP camps in Oct 1 1951 according to the 1952 Statistisches jahrbuch bundesrepublik deutschland there were 485,763 foreign nationals resident in West Germany (including 102,812 Poles) and 38,608 persons in DP camps (including 17,378 Poles). These foreign nationals are not included in the 12 million. But the figure of 672,000 expellees from Poland includes 49,000 bi-linguals. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:28, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Many Reichsdeutsch-s were also bilingual but they didn't use Slavic languages.Xx236 (talk) 14:27, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * 1,043,000 Reichsdeutsch-s were given Polish citizenship after the war. Most were not smiling in Poland and many opted to go to Germany after 1956. As an American I find this discussion a bit hard to understand, but there were parallels on our side of the Atlantic. In Europe in 1939-50 the governments tagged people with ethnic labels and then moved them around, enslaved or killed them at a drop of a hat. Here in the US back in 1939-50 there was segregation of blacks and discrimination against Jews and Catholics. I would like to find a source that compares to two situations.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:13, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The basic problem was that the alleged Poland was under Soviet occupation (obvious till 1956 and more complicated till 1989. Even many Polish Communists were imprisoned till 1956, including Gomułka.) and even some Polish historians accept leftist description of the period, especially because many influential Poles have Communist roots. The situation was accepted by the USA and UK in Teheran/Yalta/Potsdam. Douglas criticised the anti-German cooperation, quite obvious after the terrible German genocides, the anti-Polish cooperation doesn't seem to be so much interesting, a German expelled to Western Germany is a victim, a Pole in Siberia or in a Polish concentration camp is a case of some internal Polish nationalistic degeneration. (Eva Hahn criticises voelkisch (German nationalistic) POV of Norman Naimark in . People who organised the expulsion of Germans from Poland were Communists of different ethnicities and citisenships. Xx236 (talk)

Reference 276 - error
Now 277, name "uncharter" defined multiple times with different content. Xx236 (talk) 07:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

were under the control of the Allied governments
What does it mean? The Western Allied govs or in post-war Germany? Xx236 (talk) 09:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

it was the largest movement or transfer of any single ethnic population in European history
We have discussed several times that the population wasn't single ethnic. What is your definition of ethnicity including Sas population from Rumania, Slavic Warmiaks, Masurians, Kashubians, Sorbs and East-Obersilesians? Xx236 (talk) 10:11, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Repeated references
The same references are repeated, e.g. Thomas Urban, ref. 122-124. I believe that the same reference can be used several times.Xx236 (talk) 07:04, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Please explain radical changes here
Xx236 (talk) 07:59, 29 December 2015 (UTC) An editor removes informations about Nazi Generalplan Ost (811 bytes), because of a wrong URL. There are several less radical ways - e.g. correcting the URL or finding another one.Xx236 (talk) 08:19, 29 December 2015 (UTC) Please don't decide what is inapropriate. Xx236 (talk) 10:23, 29 December 2015 (UTC)


 * German historians Hahn & Hahn discuss the Nazi colonization plans in detail on pages 143-67. Nazi colonization plans are relevant in the article,historians Hahn & Hahn directly link these plans to the expulsions. For the folks who read German, contact me at berndd11222@gmail.com and I will send jpgs of the pages in Hahan & Hahn on Google drive. Unfortunately readers in the English speaking world have to depend on the polemics of the trial lawyer de Zayas who regurgitates the report of Schieder.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:48, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

NKVD special camps in Germany 1945–49
This article doesn't discuss NKVD special camps (which existed also outside Germany).Xx236 (talk) 08:44, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Bold edit
At this diff I have rewritten the contentious paragraph. It includes almost all of the information inserted by Xx236 but I hope may be more acceptable to Kevjonesin and indeed to any other readers. I hope this helps, at least in offering a comprehensible text for discussion. Richard Keatinge (talk) 13:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for proposing a compromise, Richard Keatinge. Please compare also the discussion here, on WP:AN3. That had better not been continued there, as it's not what that board is for; please take any further points arising from it here instead. Bishonen &#124; talk 23:58, 30 December 2015 (UTC).

Richard Keatinge the expulsions did not reverse Plan Ost, in fact this plan was never implemented. The expelled Germans had lived in Eastern Europe for generations. The Sudtenland was German speaking for generations prior to the war. Germans had lived side by side with the Poles, just as the Welsh and English live in Wales. The war crimes of the Nazis made the position of these ethnic Germans untenable and they were expelled by an outraged local population in 1945-50.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:26, 31 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Indeed, though the Nazis did accomplish quite a lot of expulsion and extermination, with some eastward resettlement of Germans, at least compatible with Plan Ost. I've tried to clean up the grammar in the sentence under discussion, at this diff. I hope this helps. At this point I'll take the page off my watchlist, with warm regards for the various editors here who have given me supportive messages. Best wishes for happy editing. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:42, 31 December 2015 (UTC)


 * this plan was never implemented because Germany lost the war, not because the German nation preserved some humanity.
 * Some sources describe the Zamość region expulsion as part of Generalplan Ost implementation.Xx236 (talk) 08:47, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Poland, including former German territories

 * Kaliningrad region isn't Poland.
 * Armia Krajowa prisoners don't belong here.Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Expulsion and prisoners
Sonnenburg concentration camp - 30/31 January 1945 - 819 prisoners murdered, 150 run West together with guards and their families.Xx236 (talk) 11:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Hillgruber's opinion
Hilgruber's opinion was biased:
 * Hillgruber was conservative.
 * The quoted opinion comes from the Historikerstreit, which wasn't good for him.Xx236 (talk) 09:24, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50): RfC on lede passage
Regarding second half of the second paragraph of lede as of RfC posting; (was third paragraph prior to recent edits; see history):


 * A): Is it 'on topic' and appropriate for the lede of Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50)—an article which covers the relocation of ethnic Germans in the years immediately following WWII—to contain text explicitly noting Generalplan Ost—a plan formed in the years 1939–1942 by Nazis to relocate various non-German ethnicities in the event Germany won the war?
 * i.e. Is text regarding an unrealized plan by Germans to relocate people topical to the lede of an article which aims to cover relocation of Germans by others?


 * B): Does the linked book excerpt 'Nationhood in German legislation' support
 * "The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations."
 * beside which it was placed as a reference? Does reading the book excerpt in context of its surrounding paragraphs indicate that it's intended to be taken to regard broader "geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe" or does it instead cover specifically German expulsions after WWII?
 * B.1): If the cited passage is found not to be directly supportive, it would leave
 * "The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations."
 * as an unsourced assertion. Might it be preferable to replace it with
 * "The post-war expulsions of the Germans took place amongst other geopolitical and ethnic reconfigurations in postwar Europe."
 * as a more neutral lead in sentence for "Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe." which follows?

--Kevjonesin (talk) 15:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Note: At present this RfC seeks comment and discussion, not'' support/oppose !votes. A '!vote' 'survey' may be held later in a following related RfC if such seems needed for further clarification.''

Individual responses
Please prefix your response with: Comment: and then follow with replies to any or all of the inquiries above.


 * Comment: As to A), I don't think the Generalplan Ost stuff as presented should be in the lede. Perhaps in the body of the article in another section if sources establishing a causative effect or drawing a direct comparison or some such are included along with text making a connection but not just dropped into the lede without establishing a relevant tie in. As presented it comes off to me as gratuitous and off-topic. Information covered elsewhere which is inverse to the subject of the article (and which was arose outside the time period the article seeks to cover) doesn't seem to me to warrant inclusion in the lede. Related: A link in the latter part of the 'See also' section to offer contrast for readers seems sensible; but not as the first item (as has been done) as it contrasts rather than expands on the subject of the article.
 * As to B), my reading of the book excerpt in context leads me to interpret it as specifically about German relocation and not overall multi-ethnic shifts. The paragraph preceding the linked excerpt begins "Below we briefly illustrate how the public representation of the expulsion of ethnic Germans and their ensuing hardship were inscribed into the public memory during the first post-war decade in order to recreate a legitimate sense of collectivity.". It seems through surrounding context that references to expulsions in the passage (and those immediately preceding and following) refer quite specifically to expulsions of Germans and not post WWII expulsions in general making the citation of it ill suited to follow a wiki line commenting on expulsions of non-Germans. It simply doesn't speak of "geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration [...] to create ethnically homogeneous nations". Which leads to B.1) ... As the citation needs removed due to misuse/misplacement it leaves us with a dangling unsourced assertion. Rather than removing it completely I suggest toning it down to a neutral preamble to the sourced statistic which follows it.
 * --Kevjonesin (talk) 18:26, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Threaded discussion
Please start threads with Comment, Question, Suggestion, Etc.: as you see fit below.


 * Comment Personally, I prefer having a short freestanding third paragraph as so
 * "The post-war expulsions of the Germans took place amongst other geopolitical and ethnic reconfigurations of postwar Europe. Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe."
 * to the present kludged amalgamation which displays as
 * "[...] During the Cold War, the West German government also counted as expellees 1 million foreign colonists settled in territories conquered by Nazi Germany. After the war, under the 'Big Plan',Generalplan Ost [sic] foresaw the removal of 31 million 'racially undesirable' people from Central and Eastern Europe, 100% of Jews, Poles (85%), Belorussians (75%) and Ukrainians (65%), to West Siberia,, [sic]  The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations. Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe."
 * (less bracketd comments).
 * --Kevjonesin (talk) 17:10, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Answer to "Which war": The page begins with "During the later stages of World War II", so "war" means here WWII as seen by the Nazis (and the majority of Germans). The Nazis started the war to win it, to control European resources, especially food. They regarded Eastern Europe as overpopulated, so the majority of Eastern European were to be expelled (or murdered, which was the standard German policy in the East - burning villages and killing or expelling peasants). Many Eastern Europeans were to starve (Hunger Plan), that the plan partially failed wasn't the result of German humanity but rather of self-defence of the local people - black market, illegal production and storage of food. Generalplan Ost Working paper 1997 DER GENERALPLAN OST: EIN FINSTERES KAPITEL BERLINER WISSENSCHAFTSGESCHICHTE.
 * German narration: The German narration is - the "Expulsion" was the biggest, exceptional, almost a genocide committed after the war. As this article proves it didn't take place "after the war", because an important part of it took place before May 1945. Please remember also that May 1945 didn't finish the WWII in Eastern Europe, the partisan war against the Communists continued till 1950 or longer. Poles were also moved to the West like the Germans (or to Siberia, sometimes till 1956, also longer than German POWs), but they weren't allowed to create their "Schieder report". I believe that the historical context is basic to understand the "Expulsion": German ideology, German plans, German hatred to racially lower Slavs. Europe was different in 1945 than it is today and the najority of the readers lack basic knowledge of the subject, so the context has to be explained at the very beginning, not after the German propaganda. Svetlana Alexievich describes Eastern Europe during and after WWII, please read and return to discuss here. People didn't have any "rights", why should have the Germans have ones? Xx236 (talk) 07:20, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: I think the problems of the article go deeper than whether or not to include Generalplan Ost in the lead. The title of the article strikes me as NPOV – Flight & Expulsion – and may have caused the perceived need to include material (i.e. GP Ost) to "counterbalance" the flight/expulsion narrative. Also, there's an article on the  German Evacuations. Isn't flight very similar to evacuations? This overlap is confusing to me. I see that this has been discussed above: The German evacuations during World War II & The German expulsions following World War II. I would support renaming this particular article to just Expulsions (or even German population transfers (1944–50)) and then perhaps it won't be so contentious. Compare to: Polish population transfers (1944–46) – weren't Poles also expelled from Lviv and other territories annexed to the Soviet Union? K.e.coffman (talk) 18:05, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Expulsions is the translation of the German "Vertreibung", the Polish use "Wysiedlenia" and the Czechs "Odsun" which means resettlement. German population transfers seems to me neutral. In any case we need to explain that Germans use "Vertreibung" and Poles "Wysiedlenia". I recommend that editors read R. M. Douglas’s Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War Here is a review by Richard J. Evans --Woogie10w (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Douglas' book is generally biased, it doesn't cover Soviet design and implementation of the population transfers (Poles and Germans to the West, Soviet citizens and German and Polish prisoners to the East.) The book is mainly about Czechoslovakia and incorrectly extrapolates this description to Poland. There is an academic review of the book by Madajczyk (in Polish). Douglas comletely ignores hundreds of Polish and Polish-German academic texts, he quotes German edition of Nitschke's book of 2003 (rather old).
 * Piotr Madajczyk has published a book about ethnic and class cleansings (Czystki etniczne i klasowe w Europie XX wieku: szkice do problemu, ISP PAN, Warszawa 2010). Another Polish name is "”Przymusowe wysiedlenie". Polish German fundamental edition "Unsere Heinat..." doesn't use the word "Vertreibung" and discusses the naming.Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * German foundation is named "The Federal Foundation Flight, Expulsion, Reconciliation". Xx236 (talk) 07:27, 31 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support (as the nominator) renaming the article to German population transfers (1944–50) as a neutral term that best describes the events that occurred. It also matches articles in the same vein dealing with Poland & Soviet Union during/post WWII. Woogie's point on how the nations chose to define these events (expulsion/exile/resettlement) through the use of language is very pertinent and should be covered in the article. GP Ost can also be referred to as the precursor to the events, but perhaps not in the lead. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I've read with interest the archived discussion World War II evacuation and expulsion – Requested move, and it seems that the issue with the naming has been on-going:
 * "'At Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II, I have shown that the present nomenclature at least for that article follows the use in sources, and thus is perfectly NPOV and follows the naming guidelines, which in return are based on community consensus. This cannot be overruled by a RM vote."
 * "'Some of the titles which are to be unitized are titles of different hierarchy levels of articles concerned with distinct features of a population transfer, and that must not be unitized, but need to be kept distinctive. For example Evacuation of East Prussia is a sub-article of Flight and evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II, which in turn is a sub-article of Expulsion of Germans, which in turn is or used to be a sub-article of German exodus from Eastern Europe.'"
 * These links are revealing, as it can be seen that the Flight portion transitioned from Flight and Evacuation to this article (Flight and Expulsion). Overall, Population transfers name helps to get out of this mess. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:33, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Drive-by comment I think you've made this RfC too complex by making it about more than one thing (A & B1 then B2). Casual readers may struggle with the formulation, I know I did. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

displacements/removals
The word displacements has been recently replaced by removals. I'm not a native speaker so I'm not able to decide, but do refugees remove themselves? Their removal was decided later in Potsdam. Xx236 (talk) 09:42, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Autochtonus, indigenious and bilingual
The three words may decribe the same groups, some unification is needed.Xx236 (talk) 13:08, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Historian R. M. Douglas describes a chaotic and lawless regime
Not only R.M. Douglas, it's a part of popular culture in Poland, compare Prawo i pięść the 1964 movie. The situation in Soviet occupied Poland was difficult, see M. Zaremba, Wielka trwoga, Augustów roundup.Xx236 (talk) 05:58, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Problem with Commons
Category:Refugees of World War II in Germany includes non-German refugees. Either the link should be changed or the difference should be explained.Xx236 (talk) 08:23, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

If Brno belongs to the Sudetenland, which part of Czechia doesn't?

 * Brno belonged to the Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren, it wasn't annected.
 * 100 000 Germans were evacuated from Slovakia by the Nazis, but some were probably expelled. Slovakia isn't Sudetenland.

Xx236 (talk) 11:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Senseless sentence
This does not parse as English:

Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, with the majority of which including ethnic Germans ('Volksdeutsche') as well as German citizens ('Reichsdeutsche') were ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.

I think what is meant is one of the following, but they are very different statements:

Between 1944 and 1948, about 31 million people – the majority of whom were ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) or German citizens (Reichsdeutsche) – were ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.

or

Between 1944 and 1948, about 31 million people – including most of the ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) and German citizens (Reichsdeutsche) in the region – were ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.

Someone with the sources on hand is going to need to check this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:17, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The sentence was plugged into the article to placate those want to point out that not only Germans suffered in WW2. In any case it is a single solitary statistic that is meant to spin a POV--Woogie10w (talk) 10:08, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Citation overkill
In the "Human losses" section, one sentence has ten (!) citations added to it, as does a sentence in the "Discourse" sub-section. There are several other sentences in the article like this. I'm curious to know the thought process behind whomever left those 10th citations. ("Man, nine citations just doesn't cut it - we need TEN!") While it's certainly good to have statements evidenced by sources, you don't need to literally add every single article you've ever seen on the topic to this page. 2602:306:CFEA:170:D64:2589:C3A0:83FA (talk) 05:59, 3 September 2016 (UTC)