Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)/Archive 21

Requested move 29 August 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 15:08, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50) → Evacuation, flight and deportation of Germans (1944–50) – I have originally posted this at WT:GERMANY, but it did not generate much discussion (commented upon only by User:Calistemon and User:Bermicourt so here we go again. We have a number of articles related to Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50); most of them use the problematic word "expulsion" while omitting more correct terminology lime deportation or evacuation. Let's start with this article. What I am proposing is renaming them by changing the word expulsion, which is not defined, to word deportation, which is. Note that Expulsion is a disambig, which mentions Deportation as the related article ("Deportation is the expulsion of a person or group of people from a place or country"), and it is applicable in the historical context ("Deportation is an ancient practice, for example: Khosrau I, Sassanid King of Persia, deported 292,000 citizens, slaves, and conquered people to the new city of Ctesiphon in 542 C.E.["). While I understand User:Bermicourt raised concerns related to the English language term expulsion as perhaps more encompassing ("the action or process of forcing someone to leave a place"), I do think that it is problematic for two reasons. First, I repeat - it is not defined, and hence, not as scientific / legal as deportation. Anyway, deportation and explusion are pretty much synomyms, and we should try to standardize our usage of such (given the mess of Deportation of Germans from Romania after World War II but Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia and Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II and so on...sigh). Please consider this also in light of the existence of Category:Deportation, a subcategory to Category:Forced migration (another way of going about it would be to CfD Category:Deportation to Category:Expulsions and RM Deportation to Expulsion but I think that would be more troublesome). Second problem with the current name of the article is that for no good reason it omits evacuation (German evacuation from East-Central Europe near the end of World War II ), which is discussed here and forms a third of what this article is discussing (in addition to flight and deportation). I therefore propose several better names for your consideration, please comment on which if any is preferable. A. Evacuation, flight and deportation of Germans (1944–50). B. Evacuation, flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50). C. Evacuation and forced migration of Germans (1944–50). I believe that each of those names would be an improvement over the current one. Thoughts? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:45, 29 August 2016 (UTC) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:45, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: "Deportation", as its article also suggests, applies generally to non-citizens only - removing a citizen from their own country would probably be covered better by the term "Expulsion". So in this case, the forced movement of the Reichsdeutsche (German citizens) would probably work well under "Deportation", but of the Volksdeutsche (of German ancestry) would quite possibly work better under "Expulsion". But again, this is a modern (and my) interpretation of what citizenship means. There could be many cases where a person was a Polish citizen with German roots (for instance), but was treated as a second-class citizen in many aspects solely due to their ancestry. Whether that should be called "Deportation" according to the context of the 1940s, I am not sure. MikeLynch (talk) 10:08, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment Lets leave our opinions and analysis off Wikipedia and stick to the sources.  German sources use the term "Vertreibung"-expulsion; Polish sources use deportation "Wysiedlenia"  Czech sources "Odsun" also  deportation. Expulsion and deportation are both valid descriptions depending on your source. I believe Piotrus may have missed this point.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Depends on who you'd ask, I guess. What's deportation for one party could well be expulsion for the opposite one. MikeLynch (talk) 10:26, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * During the cold war West German sources using"Vertreibung"-expulsion were cited in English language sources. Polish and Czech sources were communist and ignored. It should be pointed out that current critics of the official German government POV, ie. Ingo Haar and the Hahn's both use the German term "Vertreibung"-expulsion;--Woogie10w (talk) 10:31, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * , I admit I have not looked at relevant literature in as much detail as I expect you did. Nonetheless, regarding sources, I did read and I do not think that it makes the case for any significant difference between those terms. I have also looked, if briefly, at a number of other works and they all seem to either use those terms as interchangable synomys, saying stuff like "There is little difference between the commentators regarding the definitions of expulsion, deportation", or simply, similar to our definition at deportation, "D]eportation implies expulsion from the national territory" or "The definition of deportation that refers to the systematic expulsion of a..." i.e. using the word explulsion as a more common English word used to define and explain the word deportation. Therefore I believe you did not reply to my main point. That is that the term expulsion is not defined anywhere, including on Wikipedia, which leads me to argue that it is nothing more then a synonym for deportation. If you could show a work that defines expulsion, preferably by comparison with deportation, I would be happy to withdraw my argument. If not, I will stand by my point that this is nothing but semantic difference, and that we need to rename this article (and a number of others) in order to standardize the usage of relevant terminology on Wikipedia, and to use more precise, technical and defined term instead of one that is not defined properly. In case anyone would like to talk POV, I am totally intending to have the same discussions/RM at Expulsion of Poles, too.  --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  14:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Reply to Piotrus I really don't care one way or the other regarding the use of "Expulsion" or "Deportation" My concern here is to make sure that the statistical data presented in the article accurately reflects the sources. I try to avoid cherry picking solitary numbers and then spinning a POV. --Woogie10w (talk) 14:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I know, but then this entire subthread seems off topic to this discussion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:53, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: I am not that involved, but isn't "German exodus after World War II (1945–1950)" or "German exodus (1945–1950)" a neutral and simple title? The same is used for Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries and 1948 Palestinian exodus. Both include people who fled, people who were deported, people who were evacuated and people who just left on their own will and the "exodus" is a simple and neutral term that can't be disputed (in my opinion).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:30, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Bolter21 the term "exodus" is unacceptable in my opinion because it brings to the readers mind a comparison with fate of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust and the Exodus (Uris novel). There was no state sponsored policy to exterminate the Germans that can be compared to the Holocaust. --Woogie10w (talk) 14:19, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Uris being clever notwithstanding, the Exodus of the Jews has nothing at all to do with that place or time in history. That said, I think that because the word "exodus" is so closely associated with Jewish history that its usage in this very specific case would be unreasonable and apt to cause conflict and reader anger; if it were for anyone but the Germans after WWII, this problem would not arise. It's too much like referring to a bunch of African-Americans killing a white guy as a "Lynch mob", or saying that the Japanese virtual takeover of the electronics industry from the US lead in that field was like an atomic bomb going off over the US economy.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment. Very few Wikipedia editors have a vested interest in maintaining and improving these articles, User:Woogie10w is definitely one of the most serious ones. We've worked together with great intensity on at least one of the articles in this series. The issue is highly politicized; so much so, that many analysts on both sides relied on selective evidence supporting their preconceived notions for decades. Former Nazi Party members like Theodor Schieder for most of their postwar careers promoted Germany’s own victimization narrative. As noted by Mark Levene (The European Rimlands), the statistics were being doctored. During the Nazi Heim ins Reich resettlement some 867,000 Volksdeutsche were brought into conquered Poland by Adolf Hitler. Only 10% of the colonists came from Germany, the majority were former Soviet citizens (see: Bramwell, Nicholas, Aycoberry, and Eberhardt). Most of them were removed from Poland by the communists after the war ended, but not before the expulsion of Poles by Nazi Germany in the preceding years. Was that "expulsion" of the Germans? Nobody knows how many of them were actually forced to resettle from Bessarabia, Dobruja, Bukovina, Volhynia, Galicia, the Baltic states, eastern Poland, Sudetenland, and from Slovenia (see map). The word "expulsion" would apply, except that they were not Germans in the real sense of the word "Germans". Most of them were self-identified Volksdeutsche (Elena Dundovich, ‎Francesca Gori, ‎Emanuela Guercetti) taking advantage of the unusual opportunity to 'get rich quick'.  Poeticbent  talk 13:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Pocetibent you wrote "As noted by Mark Levene (The European Rimlands), the statistics were being doctored."The source Mark Levene (The European Rimlands) p.364 does not say this. Levine notes that the current German estimates of 2-2.5 million "may well be overestimates", he went on to cite a figure of 1.4 million deaths by a Mark Kramer and the German recent estimates 500-600,000. Also Schieder did not include the 867,000 Volksdeutsche in his figures of expulsion dead, Schieder in fact makes this point clear. --Woogie10w (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Poeticbent and Piotrus you both read Polish, my Polish is limited and I must depend on friends here in Brooklyn for help in translations. Poeticbent and Piotrus we need to give greater attention to the Polish sources, also Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War by R. M. Douglas (Author) is a reliable academic source that provides a historical perspective based on Polish, Czech and Western Allied sources--Woogie10w (talk) 14:26, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's a proof provided by Piotrus himself how blurry the lines have become. Quote from Mass Expulsion in Modern International Law and Practice By Jean-Marie Henckaerts: The difference between expulsion of aliens and expulsion of nationals is very substantial. In principle, it is legal to expel individual aliens but illegal to expel nationals. This basic difference warrants a separate treatment of both subjects. The traditional definition of expulsion covers instances of official direct expulsions usually carried out through expulsion orders or decrees. The Volksdeutsche belonged to two separate categories of expellees. Nevertheless, both subjects were treated by the Stalinists the same way ... as aliens, even though many of them were not aliens, including members of Volksdeutscher Selbstschutz who together with the Einsatzgruppen committed massacres of Poles and Jews.  Poeticbent  talk 19:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Poeticbent all well and good if you want change the header title but in the body of the article we need to inform readers that many sources refer to these events as "Expulsions" We cannot censor out the word expulsion--Woogie10w (talk) 19:34, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * , where did you get the idea that I was against the word "expulsion" when in fact I said the opposite.  Poeticbent  talk 19:59, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. Are you saying the term deportation is less neutral then expulsion? Do you have any sources for that? All I am saying is that the terms are pretty much synonymous, and that we should avoid confusing reader with synonyms and standardize to one primary term. And sure, in the text - even in the lead - we can mention that the word expulsion is a common synonym used in this context. The cited book clearly states As far as deportation is concerned, there is no general feature that clearly sets it apart from expulsion. Both term basically indicate the same phenomenon. [...] The only difference seems to be one of preferential use, explusion being more an international term while deportation is more used in municipal law. [...] One study [discusses this distinction] but immediately adds that in modern practice both terms have became interchangeable. As far as I understand that chapter, the book makes a point that explusion is more accurately distinguished from exclusion (non-admission) and extradiction, but difference between that term and deportation are pretty superficial. And why do both of you keep ignoring my comment on the need to standardize our terminology here? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:04, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment. Whatever you're trying to do, leaving the word "expulsion" out of the article's title is not acceptable.Ernio48 (talk) 19:49, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Why? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:04, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't have the time or patience to blog about Deportation vs. Expulsion. Population Transfers is a description that has a NPOV--Woogie10w (talk) 19:54, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * And what about paraphrasing it all as "exodus"? There will always be someone that won't be content with the title, but "exodus" includes them all.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:03, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't mean the same thing either. They did't leave of their own accord or "jump before they were pushed" (exodus) and they weren't sent back to their own country (deportation), it was "we are throwing you out of our country and we don't care what happens to you after that" (expulsion). Britmax (talk) 09:25, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Not true, "exodus" is used for all sorts of "exits". See examples: Jujuy Exodus, Exodus of Slav-Macedonians from Greece, Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries, 1948 Palestinian exodus.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:52, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Don't move Here is the thrust of my earlier comments referred to above: I don't agree that 'deportation' is better than 'expulsion'. 'Expulsion', may not be defined by Wikipedia, but one of its key dictionary definitions is "the action or process of forcing someone to leave a place", according to the Oxford Dictionary of English, which goes on ironically to quote as an example of usage: "the most brutal chapter of the expulsion of Jews from Berlin". Wikipedia's structure favours article titles and categories like 'deportation' simply for disambiguation reasons, but that is not a good reason to favour these words, otherwise we're not reflecting the sources well. Arguable 'deportation' and 'expulsion' are not precisely the same either because the former is used typically where people have illegal status or have committed a crime, whereas expulsion is more general. Also deportation implies people are transported. My understanding of this sorry chapter of history is that Germans were just driven, often on foot, out of their homes and lands, which were then seized. --Bermicourt (talk) 13:25, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Bermicourt, in fact most of the Germans were not expelled, according to the Hahn's in their Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern p.659. 4.5 million fled during the war, 2.6 million were returned POWs and 4.5 million were deported or expelled from 1946-50. The true expulsions took place in 1945 up until the fall when the Allies demanded that organized deportations take place. In 1946 internment camps were set up to insure a regular and organized transfer of the Germans. The Hahn's believe that  most of the 500,000 estimated deaths occurred during the wartime flight and forced labor of the Germans. The Hahn's did not mention the fate of other Europeans after the war, 1 million starved to death in the USSR in 1947 and 80,000 in the Netherlands. In Poland the health situation was poor according to official sources. In 1945 the Germans were in the same boat as other Europeans, in post war Europe the Germans suffered along with the rest of Europe. German sources ignore this fact. --Woogie10w (talk) 21:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Another point that German sources ignore is the treatment of the expelled persons by the local German population(East & West) after the surrender. They were denied shelter and food by many Germans. Allied Reports from 1945 cited by Douglas in Orderly and Humane describe the dire situation in occupied Germany of the expelles in 1945, starvation and disease were widespread. --Woogie10w (talk) 22:00, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:CONCISE. It is not necessary that there be a perfect 1.000 : 1.000 correspondence between our articles and category titles, only that the titles makes sense with their content and the categories not be grossly confusing (the categories are in fact typically more general, lumping, and glossing over of distinctions than the article titles, and thus diverge from them fairly often when it comes to exact terms). The proposed title is pedantic as well as unnecessarily lengthy.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - Expulsion is the English equivalent for Vertreibung, the Cold war German nationalistic propaganda name. Either all forced migrations are expulsions or none. The fate of deported by Nazis millions of Slavs was equally dramatic. Repatriated Soviet citizens were imprisoned, many of them died, see Repatriation of Cossacks after World War II. Xx236 (talk) 09:40, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Many of the repatriated Soviet citizens were fascist scumbags who supported Nazi Germany. These people had blood on their hands and deserved to be put into forced labor to undo the damage and destruction caused by Nazi Germany. xxx236 you need to see the movie Come and See--Woogie10w (talk) 12:24, 2 September 2016 (UTC) In Poland those Polish citizens who wore the German uniform were convicted of treason and sentenced to hard labor, xxx236 do you have a problem with that? --Woogie10w (talk) 12:30, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose adding "evacuation." It's unnecessary, and not concise. What's notable about this incident is the ethnic cleansing by which ethnic German towns became Polish or Czech. Putting "evacuation" first misleads the reader. As far as deportation vs expulsion goes, I don't see much difference. The light bringer (talk) 15:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Reichling study is cited by the German government
Not by government but by one German historian in 2005. We don't know how booklets are selected and published for the political education. Xx236 (talk) 09:56, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Xx236 your statement is not correct. The German government does in fact cite the Reichling study pp.27-31 is in fact cited to support the 2 million figure. If there is a dispute I can provide a jpg of the Reichling study. --Woogie10w (talk) 10:55, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The quoted text is by Bernd Faulenbach in 2005. not by the government now. As I have written above we don't know how the texts are qualified to be published by the Federal Agency for Civic Education and how they are removed. Furthermore, a committee of 22 members of the Bundestag is responsible for monitoring the effectiveness and political neutrality of the bpb. One of the booklets has been accused of anti-Semitism.Xx236 (talk) 11:00, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The Federal Agency for Civic Education website currently in 2016 cites the Reichling study pp.27-31 as support for the figure of 2 million.  --Woogie10w (talk) 11:20, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Because the statement was prepared by Faulenbach in 2005 does not change the fact that it is the current 2016 position of the Federal Agency for Civic Education--Woogie10w (talk) 11:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Your above statement is unsourced. :The text was published in 2005 and it isn't an official statement of the government. There exists some body which qualifies and rejects such texts and according to my experiencne it's very difficult to remove a published text from any, especially German portal. Is in the USA any agency portal reliable source of the US administration politics? Xx236 (talk) 11:30, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Faulenbach quotes Nawratil, which makes him unserious.Xx236 (talk) 11:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The Federal Agency for Civic Education is an arm of the German government. This is their current 2016 position--Woogie10w (talk) 11:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC)'"Furthermore, a committee of 22 members of the Bundestag is responsible for monitoring the effectiveness and political neutrality of the bpb.''
 * If the Bundestag  wanted to delete the 2 million supported by Reichling  and plug in a different number you can rest assured that they would do so. But the figure of 2 million is a political statement, a Third rail of politics they dare not touch--Woogie10w (talk) 12:46, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * de::Bernd Faulenbach is an academic with impressive credentials. On Wikipedia we have a NPOV and present opposing arguments in a dispute, including the Federal Agency for Civic Education. Wikipedia is not Poland circa 1981 were the censors determine the correct POV. As far as Nawratil is concerned, Faulenbach merely says that Nawratil has higher numbers, he does not quote Nawratil--Woogie10w (talk) 13:02, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * O.K. so he uses Nawratil to support his position.
 * Faulenbach was born in Pyrzyce, so there exists Conflict of interest.
 * German politics is represented by the  Federal Foundation Flight, Expulsion, Reconciliation. The former director was replaced in February and Advisory Council doesn't exist, so there are apparently internal German problems.Xx236 (talk) 05:45, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Removing dating from the title.
Current title is: Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50). What about removing (1944–50) from the title? I think the title Flight and expulsion of Germans is enough. There had not been any larger expulsion in history/to date, and when someone says Flight and expulsion of Germans everyone knows he refers to the happenings we describe in this article.Ernio48 (talk) 19:44, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I know you're tired after the recent discussions. But, anyone?Ernio48 (talk) 19:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Ernio48 I believe that you a making this proposed change in good faith. However I disagree because the expulsions/deportations had ended by 1950. In fact 170,000 Germans were held in Poland as forced labor until the mid 1950's. According to Reichling in his Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen p. 53 between 1951-1982 2.8 million ethnic Germans emigrated to Germany or the west and some even returned to eastern Europe . --Woogie10w (talk) 00:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Western Germany bought people from Poland . The emigrants from Poland included members of families, ie. not only ethnic Germans. Xx236 (talk) 08:50, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Please explain
Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, with the majority of which including. What does the phrase mean? Xx236 (talk) 08:50, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

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Controversial map

 * The map presents German POV.
 * No explanation.Xx236 (talk) 10:40, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * --Kevjonesin (talk) 12:00, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I mean the German school map recently added. It lacks any explanation.Xx236 (talk) 12:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Which five maps? One of the maps is exactly the same as one in an atlas on my bookshelf published in Nazi Germany. Lange diercke sachsen deutschtum mitteleuropa.jpg

Seems dubious to me--Woogie10w (talk) 12:28, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It says that Masuren aren't Slavic. They were bilingual Slavs. The map shows a big mixed German-Polish area and radical Polish-Masurian division.
 * The year of publishing is unknown.
 * Weimar Germany was revisonistic, sometimes more than Nazi Germany 1933-1938, which wanted to use Poland against the SU.Xx236 (talk) 12:33, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Germans in Grodno? Very strange.Xx236 (talk) 12:39, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Compare Ruhrpolen, not marked on the map.Xx236 (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi y'all, I just came across Template:POV map and this thread came to mind so I've dropped the link here in case it becomes useful at some point. --Kevjonesin (talk) 07:35, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi! Maybe i can help here. A schoolbook of 1930 Saxony, Dresden issue, the image is:, It is an overview without further details - whether or not correct - of the areas where Germans settled, among others. It does of course not show, who else and how many of them lived there, which is crucial, especially in the east, where the zone of mixed and multi nationalities is very large, including pockets and enclaves with sudden and greatly contrasting demography etc. I suggest to add a proper caption. If not, i agree with User:Xx236, it provides a distorted view of the century old and complex cultural diffusion. ATBWikirictor (talk) 09:26, 14 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for noticing, User:Xx236. This so-called school map is a propaganda stunt in the lead-up to Anschluss and the invasion of Poland several years later. Illustrated pockets of Germans (with no percentage points of general population) dot all territories east of the German border ... and only east of the border.  Poeticbent  talk 10:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks Poeticbent you raised a good point. What I need to do is make a schedule showing the "German" population in east-central Europe in 1930/31 per the national census data and contrast that with the 1958 West German figures. Lets let the numbers speak for themselves.  The West Germans derived their figure of 2.1million expulsion dead by puffing up the prewar "German" population. The Nazi atlas from 1938 on my bookshelf has a map of North America showing the entire US highlighted in pink with 8 million "Germans".  LOL, --Woogie10w (talk) 12:27, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Background
Nazi Germany wanted to use Poland against the SU (like Romania), so during the years 1933-1938 the German minority in Poland didn't oppose the government.Xx236 (talk) 10:57, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Precedent

 * For example, Timothy V. Waters[who?] argues in "On the Legal Construction of Ethnic Cleansing" that if similar circumstances arise in the future, the precedent of the expulsions of the Germans without legal redress would also allow the future ethnic cleansing of other populations under international law.

Please see the argument I've made here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ethnic_cleansing#Precedent ImTheIP (talk) 07:00, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

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 * Added tag to https://books.google.com/?id=M734r1ZXW2cC&pg=PA657&dq=expulsion+cleansing+germans&q=expulsion%20cleansing%20germans

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Banat
There were 500,000 Germans in Banat alone in 1944, and perhaps only half of them escaped - the rest taken to camps by the Russian army (Tito). So how can we say that 2 million Germans died is inaccurate when we consider all of those eastern european countries with German settlements being taken to death or forced labor camps. Yes, certainly there were millions. It's also not true that "most" Germans fled with the NAZI troops. The people of Banat alone - most did not want to leave, and it's documented the NAZI troops did a bad job of getting people out. Don't be too sure all those German settlers in Yugolavia just left - more likely captured. http://www.wikiwand.com/de/Evakuierung_der_Deutschen_Volksgruppe_aus_dem_Banat_1944 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5CE:300:4500:10F0:905A:CA40:D84D (talk) 02:33, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

There are five sources of figures for the death toll of the Germans from Yugoslavia: they do not agree, so take your pick

ONE According to the report of the Landsmannschaft der Donauschwaben aus Jugoslawien cited below 166,970 civilians were interned by the Yugoslav authorities and an additional 12,380 were deported to the USSR as forced laborers. The death toll is detailed below

Source:Leidensweg der Deutschen im kommunistischen Jugoslawien'' / verfasst vom Arbeitskreis Dokumentation im Bundesverband der Landsmannschaft der Donauschwaben aus Jugoslawien, Sindelfingen, und in der Donauschwäbischen Kulturstiftung, München. Imprint München : Die Stiftung, 1991-1995. Vol 4 p. 1018–1019 These figures are only a brief summary of the data in the text-

TWO Another source The German Church Search Service figures issued in 1965 are as follows: 55,300 confirmed deaths:( 5,538 violent deaths; 2,052 deported for forced labor USSR; 43,274 in internment camps; 1,960 during the wartime Flight and 287 in the course of the expulsions). In addition the German Church Search Service listed 36,164 "unsolved cases" of civilians listed as missing and 29,745 military dead. In Alfred Bohmann, Menschen und Grenzen/ 2, Bevölkerung und Nationalitäten in Südosteuropa. Köln : Verl. Wissenschaft u. Politik, 1969. page 276 THREE And the The Schieder commission figures published in 1961 are as follows: c.69,000 civilian casualties including (5,777 violent deaths;  5,683 dead and missing persons deported for forced labor in the USSR; 48,027 in internment camps; 2,361 during the wartime Flight,187 in prisons and 6,273 missing persons).

FOUR Gerhard Reichling Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen(1986)-106,000 total civilian dead.

FIVE Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste (1958) 135,800 total civilian dead

This is what the German sources tell us.--Woogie10w (talk) 04:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150924025900/http://www.herder-institut.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/vergriffene_Publikationen/Losy_Band1.pdf to https://www.herder-institut.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/vergriffene_Publikationen/Losy_Band1.pdf
 * Added tag to http://www.many-roads.com/galleries/Photo%20Galleries/Senger%20Family%20Photos/Flucht%20Expulsion/

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were expelled in the lead
The page is about Flight and expulsion, so I have added flew. At least Nazi criminals flew, because they were aware of Soviet and Polish persecutions. Xx236 (talk) 07:49, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * which were annexed by Poland - Poland obtained the lands. Poland wasn't able to annect anything. Xx236 (talk) 07:58, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * only partially completed - only few percent of Jews survived.
 * Roma and Sinti should be mentioned.
 * Some Slavs were accepted (Western Ukrainians, Slovaks, Goralenvolk), some weren't (Poles).Xx236 (talk) 08:01, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

very disrespectful comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

"By 1950, a total of approximately 12 million Germans had fled or been expelled..."
I recently removed this paragraph from the Intro. After that was reverted, I've now moved it up adjacent to the existing para on numbers. It's now clear that there is some conflict/confusion. My feeling is that an Intro should not have too much detail on issues like this - typically there are subtle definitional issues, and strong opinions from various sides. While there needs to be something said about numbers in the intro, it should be fairly general and given in terms of a range. (I did something like this with the deaths issue later in the intro). - Snori (talk) 00:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I think the current para beginning "Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million..." needs to be be trimmed and tidied up into one coherent whole. I think this would be better done by someone closer to the topic than me, but if no-one does I'll have a crack at it. This will mean losing some detail, but that's the nature of an Intro; which should simply be a "easily read summary" of the article. - Snori (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


 * This lede has gone through numerous changes in the past, some editors want to push the high death toll(2-3 million) and others want to see the lower figure of 500-600,00 which was estimated since 1989. I agree that the lede can be trimmed, we need to put the facts in a clear and concise format. Your edit is perfect, readers will find the details in the body of the article--Woogie 10w (talk) 00:24, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Internment
This appears in the Intro: "Many German civilians were sent to internment and labour camps where they were used as forced labour as part of German reparations to countries in eastern Europe." It has a ref which I can't easily check, but my real problem is that it doesn't seem to be a summary of anything in the body of the article. Plenty of use of "internment camp", but just not in this context. I want to move it down into the body somewhere rather than simply delete it, but it really needs expansion then. Thoughts? - Snori (talk) 00:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

The death toll includes post war internment and labour camp deaths, in fact the German sources estimate 150,000 killed in the fighting and the remainder in the post war expulsion process. Internment and forced labor constituted the bulk of the losses.--Woogie 10w (talk) 00:52, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Please become familiar with the facts, guessing will waste our time--Woogie 10w (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

This is a good summary of the figure of 600,000 that is cited by the Deutsches Historisches Museum, Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union. --Woogie 10w (talk) 01:16, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

A road sign
The caption isn't obvious. Reichenbach was Austrian and during WWII German. Danzig was German but a Free City between the wars.Xx236 (talk) 11:01, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people
If we mention the population transfers, we should list also non-German nationalities. The context suggests the refugees were all German more or less.Xx236 (talk) 09:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * A very similar flight and expulstion of Italians is called an exodus (Istrian-Dalmatian exodus) and not mentioned in this text.Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a good idea. Likebeingawesome (talk) 01:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

The article has a distinct lack of mention and content about ethnic cleansing
This is an unambiguous case of ethnic cleansing of Germans/German-linked 'undesirables' from large swathes of Europe. The fact the German state of the time was itself a perpetrator of ethnic cleansing shouldn't be used as an excuse to downplay and ignore the obvious in this instance.

I would like to see the accurate description of this episode of ethnic cleansing recognised for what it is, more prominently.

The reasons not to are up there with the same 'rationale' behind downplaying/ignoring other such crimes as the Armenian Genocide, or ironically enough the Holocaust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:A005:CA01:91DC:F403:2870:8A9C (talk) 13:02, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * If you have a reliable source that these events were ethnic cleansing as opposed to expulsion please edit the article accordingly. Independent reliable sources that are explicit will be required.
 * It meets the definition for ethnic cleansing perfectly, a group of "undesirable" people were removed from a place where they had lived for centuries. Using your logic someone should just put the dictionary definition of ethnic cleansing in the article. The rest of the contents will provide all the proof needed. Likebeingawesome (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Britmax (talk) 15:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a different term for the same thing - "expulsion" is fine.50.111.51.247 (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The general consensus is that the expulsions were regrettable, tragic and often mishandled - yet ultimately justified and for the future good of Europe.2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:E43A:5394:ED49:F1FA (talk) 20:54, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Please restrain yourself from posting such rubbish - especially without a claim to a Reliable Source (you won't find one) on the issue. 50.111.51.247 (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There is not such general consensus.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:10, 19 January 2021 (UTC))
 * They were absolutely unjustified. Likebeingawesome (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

It was ethnic cleansing through and through. It's a good example of the old adage "it's not a war crime if you win". SouthernResidentOrca (talk) 05:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing of Czechs or Sudeten Germans? The conclusions of the Potsdam Conference were confirmed by its signatory states in 1996. The US government, said: "The decisions made at Potsdam ... were soundly based in international law. The conference conclusions have been endorsed many times since in various multilateral and bilateral contexts. ... The conclusions of Potsdam are historical fact and the United States is confident that no country wishes to call them into question". The Allied transfer of Sudeten Germans with Nazi-German citizenship was ultimately justified and for the future good of Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.23.6.193 (talk) 15:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I think at least we should state that this was an act of ethnic cleansing in the heading. no matter if you think the expulsions where justified or not... By definition the expulsion of germans in this time peiriod, was an act of ethnic cleansing/genocide. clinsing.https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml [] [] [] [] Sources calling the expalshan of germens in this time period ethnic clensing this event Genocide/Ethnic cleansing [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Zyxrq (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2023 (UTC)