Talk:Flight controller

Reason for article
Decided to consolidate the numerous small flight controller articles to a single larger article.

Advantages of a single article

 * Each small article is likely to remain so, since the available information is limited. No reason for a separate article for such a small item, especially when they're closely related to other similar articles
 * Managing a group of small articles is harder than a single large article, e.g, each new small article requires editing all other articles in the group to add a link to help find related articles. Having a single larger article avoids managing the links
 * Avoids redundant info. Eliminates the verbiage needed to introduce each article
 * There are numerous Wiki references to "flight controller", as well as individual controller titles. A single larger article can be used for both.

Disadvantages of a single article

 * Readers will have to scroll down to find the individual flight controller info unless a direct subheading link is used. Joema 20:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Discuss changes
Thanks Junequinox for the nice info about shuttle vs ISS controllers. I reordered the paragraphs and reworded some of your stuff to improve readability. See Elements of Style and. Post any questions or issues here. Joema 17:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I added All ISS controllers except for CIO, for which I can find no documentation other than a refered that it exists on an MCC layout graphic. Redirected all old individual entries to direct-subhead links into this entry. --Marc 15:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

To Do?
It seems to me that we need several new chunks of information: * Gemini console positions
 * Apollo console positions
 * Skylab console positions
 * SSR/MPSR positions

Many of the Gemini/Apollo/Skylab/Shuttle FCR/MPSR positions will overlap - maybe just a list of postions in the section currently listed as "Shuttle" and then a table showing the program for which they were applicable? --Marc 14:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be good, but it's hard to find comprehensive, detailed information specific to a single program about flight controller positions. I looked around and I can't find it on the internet. A NASA flight controller might know where to get that kind of detailed historical information. Joema 00:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree - I used to be one and that's how I added some of what I did. This was really intended to be a spur to anyone else who might happen across this page.  I'm going to get started on the ISS MPSR positions soon. --Marc 19:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

America-centered article
A Flight Controller is *not* " personnel that aid in the operations of a space flight at NASA's Mission Control Center." It is " personnel that aid in the operations of a space flight at a Mission Control Center."

For example, maybe take a look at European Space Operations Center for some info: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESOC/index.html. You may seek more information in Russian, or Chinese, or Indian, or Japanese flight operations. I believe is really countrycentric to believe that a normal job in the space carreer is limited to NASA's Mission Control Center...

Then maybe retitle - this page is cumbersome enough without trying to incorporate all countries' flight controllers. BTW - only at MCC-houston are they called "Flight Controllers," so to be pedantic, a "Flight Controllers" are " personnel that aid in the operations of a space flight at NASA's Mission Control Center." . (I used to know the Russian term, but it escapes me now.)   Marc 14:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The Russian term is "TsUP" - once I get on a computer with Cyrillic fonts I can type out the full acronym. It means "Center of Flight Control". I completely agree with this being a NASA centric page. Being new to editing on wikipedia, I can help on flight controller pages for Russia, Japan, and ESA (I currently work in some of these control centers) but need help getting the page started.--Felt (talk) 21:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Steve Bales and Presidential Medal of Freedom
I have edited the information about Steve Bales and the Apollo 11 landing. He didn't actually receive the Presidential Medal of Honor for his role in the mission, but rather accepted a NASA Group Achievement Award on behalf of the mission control team. Anyone who wants to discuss this further can do so either here or on my talk page. --MLilburne 08:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Organization?
It strikes me that the organization of this page is a little confused, with many Apollo-era positions being listed under the Space Shuttle section. Might it make sense to start with Apollo positions as the baseline, and then have the next section list the positions that were eliminated by the time of the Shuttle program (for example, RETRO), and then list the new positions that were added?

I suggest using Apollo as the baseline because it strikes me that there is enough information about that Mission Control in that era for a comprehensive list to be created. Whereas I don't think that's the case with Mercury, which would otherwise be the logical starting point. --MLilburne 12:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

RSO
I've removed the section on the Range Safety Officer... RSO is a position at Kennedy Space Center, and not in Mission Control. Thus it would belong in an article on the Launch Control Center and not here. --MLilburne 16:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If that’s true, the redirect at Range Safety Officer should be changed as well as places that link to Flight controller#Range Safety Officer... I added the section back because 1, Space Shuttle Challenger disaster has a link that looks like this: Range Safety Officer . 2, because the deletion of the section was undocumented. 3, There is nowhere on wikipedia that defines "Range Safety Officer", but it used to be here.


 * I've looked at Launch Control Center and there is no reference to Range Safety Officer there (istead of deleting info, maybe you could move it?). Also, I don't see anything in this article that says that a "flight controller" has to be within the mission control building.  This article is on "Flight controllers," not "Mission Control."


 * I don't know enough about the subject to make the call - I was trying to learn, but everything on the subject was deleted here and at Range Safety Officer.


 * If consensus is that RSO doesn't belong here, we should revert the redirect at Range Safety Officer to the prior version. Jaksmata 16:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry for not moving the section instead of deleting it. I'm still a newbie around here and didn't think of it.


 * The book that I have cited under "References" makes it pretty clear that there was no RSO in Mission Control during the Apollo program at least. (I can add other sources if needed.) I couldn't state categorically that this is still the case now, but I believe that it is. In any case, if the RSO position was moved to Houston later, then it would belong in the "Space Shuttle Program" section and not in the "Apollo" section where you inserted it.


 * At this point the article only seems to deal with positions in Mission Control, so to keep RSO in this article we'd probably have to make a new section, as well as determining whether or not the RSO is considered a flight controller.


 * I like the idea of reverting the redirect at Range Safety Officer, since there doesn't seem to be anywhere else logical to put it. --MLilburne 18:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Further information... I've found an excellent source on the Launch Control Center which confirms that range safety is handled out of KSC and not out of Mission Control: Launch Control Center--Firing Room. Over the next few days, I'll try to integrate some of the information there into the Launch Control Center article. However, you may still want to create that separate page for the Range Safety Officer, given that the RSO at KSC is actually an Air Force officer and not a NASA employee. --MLilburne 08:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

MFCO
I've been trying to confirm from outside sources that the MFCO (Mission Flight Control Officer) and RSO (Range Safety Officer) are the same person, as implied in past edits. Does anyone know? Is MFCO a flight controller position that's missing from this article? Jaksmata 14:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a generic definition of MFCO provided here (link is a PDF). It states that an MFCO is "a United States Air Force Officer or civilian who monitors the performance of launch vehicles in flight and initiates flight termination action when required; the direct representative of the Range Commander during the prelaunch countdown and during launch vehicle powered flight." There are many different positions both inside and outside NASA that have to do with range safety... but more than that I don't know.


 * I would however want to see solid proof that the MFCO is considered a flight controller before including the position in this article. Because I have my doubts... --MLilburne 15:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As do I. Despite their similar definitions, I can't find anything that says MFCO is the same thing as RSO. Jaksmata 15:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

CONTROL officer (not Steve Bales)
I just cut out the following text, which was recently added:

"The most famous of the CONTROL officers was Steve Bales, who, during the landing phase of the Apollo 11 flight when the onboard computer overloaded and nearly crashed, gave the faithful "go" decision which allowed the flight to continue on into history (he recieved the Presidential Medal of Freedom along with the astronauts for this act)."

Steve Bales was GUIDANCE, not CONTROL, and he didn't actually receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom. However, he is definitely worth mentioning and I'll add a bit of text to the Guidance section. MLilburne 23:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

MPSR positions
Anyone have thoughts on how to include MPSR positions for each front room controller? Years ago I was a back room controller for FDO and after one shuttle launch (STS-63) I wrote an article on what it's like to work a launch from there (sorry, graphics and links optimized for the Web circa 1996). It's got enough information that I could probably do a writeup for the entire Ascent FDO back room team. Just list them out as sub-headings like how the FDO's External Links section is set up? -- Wizardimps 06:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a great idea. More info is always helpful. Why don't you give it a try, and if the formatting looks off, no doubt people will alter it so that it looks better. Such is the beauty of Wikipedia. MLilburne 09:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Subsection heading layout
I added an indention level to all of the heading for the NASA flight controller subsections. This leaves room for other agencies flight controllers to be described under that agency's section.

EECOM, TELMU, and INCO
I've listened to a recording of the Flight Director loop starting about 30 minutes before the Apollo 11 moon landing. (It's a part of NASA's Apollo Lunar Surface Journal site, and is the first MP3 clip linked to on this page.) In it, I noticed several interesting things, some of which seem to slightly contradict the article as it stands.


 * TELMU seems to be referred to as TELCOM, and in addition to the listed responsibilities, seems to have the responsibility of communications with the lunar lander—a task that INCO should theoretically be responsible for.
 * However, INCO is never referred to. In addition, EECOM seems to have the responsibility of maintaining communications with the CSM.

If this is accurate, the split of communications functions from EECOM and TELCOM/TELMU did not happen until after the Apollo 11 moon landing, and INCO likely did not exist as a separate entity until at least Apollo 12 (going by Lost Moon, it certainly was a separate entity by Apollo 13).

Would this recording be an adequate source if I wished to update the information on those positions? Thanks. — MarsJenkar  (talk | contribs) 19:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge from Launch Status Check and Article Breakup
There's a merge tag on the Launch_status_check page, and some talk discussion. Does anyone have ideas on how to do this?

I see no easy way to integrate the articles without making it more bulky and NASA-centric. The only thing I can think of is to split this up into the following articles: Then give a brief overview and add Main Article templates to the respective pages. For example, the Apollo flight control article could easily have a subsection on the Apollo pre-flight sequence, but adding it to the current Flight Control article would put it under subheading level 4? making it very hard to find. It is very hard to read as-is. Theshadow27 (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Flight Control
 * Apollo Flight Control
 * Space Shuttle Flight Control
 * Whatever other international flight control gets added

Links
After watching Apollo 13 (the movie) again recently, I noticed that Jane & Joe wikipedia user will still have some trouble to (easily) locate some of the terms used there. Some, like CAPCOM and EECOM, already redirect to this article, others don't, especially "funny classics" like GUIDO, RETRO, FIDO, TELMU. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.192.102.129 (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing
This page is a bit maligned with the "C-class" for sourcing, but editors need to realize that there is little comprehensive material on the operation of ANY flight control center around the world. Most histories of the personalities involved are necessarily focused on their part of the center, and any complete descriptions tend to be internal training materials, and as such, not citable, unless someone gets them "out" of the center. I think the PTB will need to be satisfied with personal descriptions and recollections - i.e. first-hand, original sourcing. Marc (talk) 14:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Apollo 13
In Apollo 13 the Flight Director is polling everybody for a GO/NO GO. One of the people that is polled is "RECOVERY". Why isn't "RECOVERY" on the list? 173.86.46.180 (talk)

Capitalization
In this edit, a mass of over-capitalization was restored. After reviewing MOS:CAPS and MOS:JOBTITLES, if someone thinks some of the terms I lowercased should be capped, please say which ones and why, and let's discuss here. Dicklyon (talk) 04:59, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Links Disambiguation pages
I have added links to the ISS Flight Controller sections at Cronus (disambiguation), Spartan (disambiguation), and Ethos (disambiguation).Bogger (talk) 18:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)