Talk:Flocke

Article name
Is there any reason this shouldn't be moved to Flocke? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope! Moved. María ( habla  con migo ) 19:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My copyediting
I'm going through and doing some copyediting of this article, to help assuage Tony1's concerns at FAC. Feel free to revert anything I change; my judgment has been known to be erroneous once in a while. Scartol •  Tok  13:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I hope I didn't cause an edit conflict just now; I was rushing to address some concerns at the FAC and after my first edit I remembered you were working on the c-eing. :( Thanks for the work so far, and feel free to grumble and curse my name if need be. María ( habla  con migo ) 16:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Bear trademarking article
This was recently added to the article, but I'm not sure if it warrants mention here since it specifically -- aside from one section that does go into detail about her early life -- does not relate to Flocke herself; it seems to be about the business of trademarking zoo bears (Knut, Flocke and Wilbar) and the legal conflict it may cause. I'm also concerned that although the ref seems to be from an academic source, it does not appear to be notable in that I have not seen it referred to in any of my regular sources for Flocke/Knut.


 * In October 2008 a legal article was published which discusses some of the trade mark law issues surrounding the marketing of Flocke and other high profile zoo animals.

If someone thinks it's important to discussion of Flocke, I'll integrate it back into the text. (ETA: this same addition was removed at Knut for similar reasons.) María ( habla con migo ) 13:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Dates in this article
I noticed that the dates follow the DDMMYY format. Is this the norm for Wikipedia? Morenooso (talk) 16:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * This article uses European date formatting because it's essentially German; while not standard, many FAs associated with a specific country tend to follow the formatting of their affiliated country. American-related use American spelling and date formatting, British-related use British, etc, etc. María ( habla  con migo ) 17:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Jürgen Ortmüller and Court Challenge
I'm curious how this became a featured article when this portion of the article has incomplete information.

Any idea why more info is not included, anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.227.180 (talk) 21:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Removed changes by Yllosubmarine 13:43, 29 October 2011‎
"(rm unsourced claims and speculaion; do you have refs to back this up?" These are NO speculations! I'm from Germany as well and there it is a generally known fact that Vilma and Vera are sisters and that Felix was the father. In one newspaper they even showed Felix mating with one (I forgot who it was) and declared that she was his favourite among the sisters. Knut spent most of his time with Dörflein, he even had to end his easter vacation after just a few days, because Knut was suffering. Again, this was all over German media. I saw more than one report on television declaring that the zookeepers in Nuremberg wanted to avoid this and they chose 4 keepers so Flocke imprints on all four of them. If you want sources I'm afraid I can only provide German ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.119.218 (talk) 23:33, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Vilma giving birth in November: http://www.stern.de/wissen/natur/eisbaeren-geburt-werden-knuts-nachfolger-ueberleben-606895.html Vilma and Vera are sisters: http://www.nnn.de/nachrichten/home/top-thema/article//eisbaer-kommt-zurueck-nach-rostock.html Felix was the only male polar bear in the zoo. Dörflein ending his vacation: http://www.morgenpost.de/printarchiv/berlin/article893196/Er_will_nur_seinen_Job_machen.html Flocke and her 4 zookeepers http://www.google.de/search?q=d%C3%B6rflein+osterurlaub&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy-ab&hl=de&client=firefox-a&hs=3xy&rls=org.mozilla:de%3Aofficial&biw=1067&bih=557&source=hp&q=flocke+4+pfleger&pbx=1&oq=flocke+4+pfleger&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4451l11600l0l11796l22l18l2l0l0l2l1715l14109l5-3.8.2.2l17l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=64f3071ced8a3015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.119.218 (talk) 23:48, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for starting this discussion. I know it's frustrating when one's edits are reverted, but reliable sourcing is really very necessary, especially in a Featured Article such as this.  Just because something is "well known" does not mean it's suitable for inclusion on Wikipedia -- after all, we value verifiability, not truth!  I can't read German, but I don't believe the links you've provided prove what the additions assert.  Felix was indeed the only male in Nuremberg, but don't zoos sometimes rent studs from other places to breed in captivity?  Despite that minor speculation on my part  ), I'll definitely look into the matter further -- with a reliable source, this will certainly make for a notable addition to the article, so thanks.
 * My main issue with the additions is the original research regarding Knut's "suffering" while being separated from Dorflein, and how this differed from Flocke's situation. First, this article is about Flocke, not Knut.  While Knut's article mentions the speculation regarding the cub "plainly miss[ing]" his keeper, this is couched with a heavy dose of "he said, she said", as you can tell by the wording.  One cannot say for certain what the bear was feeling, or that such feelings can even be attributed to a human equivalent.  We don't have any way to prove that Knut suffered, and Flocke did not, due to their separate upbringings.  While it may be the case that Nuremberg decided to use multiple keepers to raise Flocke -- in opposition to how Berlin handled matters -- that's not what the addition stated.  Again, without a reliable source, it's original research.  I hope this helps, María ( habla  con migo ) 01:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a note, but that Flocke had four keepers is currently mentioned in the "Fame" section: "Four zookeepers took turns bottle-feeding the cub with 140 milliliters of artificial milk every four hours". María ( habla con migo ) 02:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay to clarify things: This link http://www.morgenpost.de/printarchiv/berlin/article893196/Er_will_nur_seinen_Job_machen.html states "Dörflein, der seinen Osterurlaub wegen Knuts Geschrei nach 36 Stunden abbrechen musste..." "Dörflein who had to end his easter vacation afer 36 hours due to Knut's crying" http://www.bild.de/news/2007/news/tier-berliner-zoo-weltstar-1642280.bild.html mmentions that Knut hit and scratched his other keepers and that the daily Knut show had to be cancelled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UYLxGN0YGk At 2:02 the conversation goes: "We are four people." "And why?" "Because we don't want to do it like the people in Berlin, like Knut, or Mr. Dörflein, Hats off to that colleague!" "But you don't want Flocke to be too dependent on humans." "Right that's the goal, that's why we are four" "Even though you don't want Flocke to imprint on just one person you all have close contact with her..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.92.130 (talk) 06:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks; that's very helpful. It's important to point out, however, that to combine these two separate articles and make a conclusion (that Knut "suffered" because he had one keeper, and that Flocke did not because she had four) is original research by synthesis.  Synthesis is when a conclusion is drawn by combining material from different sources, when said conclusion isn't mentioned by any of them.  Here, one source only states that Dorflein had to cut his vacation short to take care of Knut, and the other states that Nuremberg decided to give Flocke four keepers so that she wouldn't become too dependent on humans.  These conclusions may be related, but they're not equal.  María ( habla  con migo ) 13:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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