Talk:Florida–Florida State football rivalry

The Joke at Doak...?
Are you people serious? How is this a memorable game in the scope of history? Removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.44.132 (talk) 13:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. If the 2008 "The Soak at Doak" isn't considered memorable, neither should this one. Removed again. 67.77.166.69 (talk) 17:44, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

We have an article for 2009's game in the swamp which is memorable for what reason then? I know you Gates would love to forget this one ever happened, but it's significant for many more reasons than the 2009 game which has an entry.

1. Jimbo Fisher's first game against UF, and first time an FSU head coach ever beat UF in their first attempt. 2. End of the longest streak since the 80's in this series 3. 100 recruits in attendance. The balance of power is shifting, and this game marks that shift..

Were you at the game? There was nothing not memorable about the game, unless of course you're a Gate. In that case, stop being a homer and get the hell off the page.

Re-added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.201.134.185 (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The tone of your post signals, to me, an inability to remain impartial as required per correct Wikipedia editing standards. This should preclude you from making further edits to this page, in my opinion.  I agree that the game should not be included on this page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.13.169.32 (talk) 08:17, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Please maintain a neutral point of view in your future edits on Wikipedia. This is a collaborative encyclopedic project, not a forum for smack-talk.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.13.169.32 (talk) 08:19, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Every year some moron tries to add that year's game even when it has no place on the page. None of your three reasons mark this game, in any way, as a historical one worthy of commemoration. 2009's game was Bobby Bowden's last game - that's A LITTLE BIT MORE of a reasonable qualifier. Stop being fools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.44.143 (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Message board-syle flame wars are completely inappropriate here. All of you should take a look at the policies about civility and personal attacks immediately, imo, along with the 3-revert rule, since y'all are getting into an edit war. This isn't about calling each other names; it's about building an unbiased and useful article. Hard to do that after you've shown yourself to be an insult-flinging homer from either school.


 * As for the section in question, I can see both sides; it's hard to judge a game's long-term impact only a few days later. (See WP:RECENT for some perspectives on this issue.) If the section does stay, the last version I saw seemed reasonable, but the "Joke at Doak" title is unsourced and inappropriate and should be changed. Zeng8r (talk) 13:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I believe that the 2010 it should be included for multiple reasons including, but not limited to, the fact that it was Fisher's first win in his first year as head coach of Florida State; it was the first time that FSU had won against Florida since 2003, breaking a 6-game streak (tie for 2nd longest streak in the series); it was the largest margin of victory for Florida State since 1988 and was the third (I believe) largest margin for FSU ever against UF; I agree with above statements that it is a key game in indicating the balance of power in the series. However, I disagree with the title picked by the original author of the section. (Drumlinehoss (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC))

Drumlinehoss has it completely right. As for the name Joke at Doak, many Florida and Florida State fans alike have been referring to it as that. As I said, obviously a Gator fan is not going to see this one as significant. They see it as any 31-7 loss (one of five on their season), but Warchant.com ranked the win as #6 of all time in Doak Campbell Stadium. To any 'Nole fan, this was a HUGE win, even if neither team was playing for anything other than bragging rights. As I said, even if you were not a 'Nole fan, had you attended the game, you would agree with me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.201.134.185 (talk) 03:38, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Noticed that 146.201.134.185 (talk) only started using Wikipedia after the game in question occurred. While we would like to welcome you to Wikipedia, your opinions and feelings on the issue of encyclopedic postings are not exactly... from an encyclopedic point of view. With the obvious exception of the 2009 game, which was Bowden's final game, most "Notable Games" are added several months removed from the actual game. This is the best way to see how "memorable" the game really was in terms of rivalry. Please check back in a few months and we'll try this again civilly. Hanrendar (talk) 05:50, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, waiting is usually the best option in this kind of article (even if it is the hardest part). If you look down the page, you can see similar discussions about several other recent games that took place soon after the final whistle. Some ended up being added, some did not. Zeng8r (talk) 11:09, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Swindle in the Swamp
This section has been the target of numerous attempts at vandalism. I have corrected the issue and added a citation. Hopefully this will resolve the issue and we remember that this is an encyclopedia and not a depot for smack talk. 65.34.81.185 (talk) 10:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Concur. The article must match the reputable sources, not what your brother-in-law who claims to have been there told you. "Questionable calls" is fair compromise wording, imo, especially since most Gator fans would use far stronger negative terms to describe that game. Zeng8r (talk) 14:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Consolidation
All of the notable games I deleted and either added into their appropiate section or if the description already existed and was better I just deleted the.

Use of logos (nonfree images)
The university logos are trademarked and copyrighted. However, no rationale is provided for their use.

In line with a similar usage discussion at The World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party, I'm soliciting from editors here a rationale of why the logos should stay. This and WLOCP are the only article I see with the logos presented thusly. (IMO, it's also a cumbersome and unattractive presentation, but that's not the issue at hand.) Similarly in line with discussion there, I personally will not delete the logos for 24 hours, though I will not stand in the way of other editors removing the logos. After 24 hours, I will delete them under the WP:NONFREE guidelines which require a usage rationale, if they have not been provided. —C.Fred (talk) 12:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Non-neutral point of view + only one reference = an article in need of work
This article is suffering from a lack of sources and, more importantly, a serious issue with bias; some sections are wildly pro-UF, others just as wildly pro-FSU. There are plenty of sports forums on the internet for Gator-Nole smack, but wikipedia is not one of them.

I'll work on the problems little by little, and hopefully other good faith editors with knowledge of this rivalry will chip in as well. Zeng8r (talk) 19:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll look into some of the games. I've kept every G'ville Sun sports section from gameday since 1993. Might be able to pull out some decent references. Jaguitar (talk) 09:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've started the revisions from the top. There's a lot of redundancy between the "history" and the "memorable games" sections, so I think it'd be best to transfer any unique info over to the memorable games section and seriously condense the history section, similar to how The World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party article is organized. Feel free to object or help or comment, anyone, Bueller, Bueller, etc... Zeng8r (talk) 05:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

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Reorganization needed
There's really no need to add summaries of every individual game since 2001 into the article. Game summaries should go in the "Memorable games" section, but only if they're particularly noteworthy. Otherwise, they should be only briefly mentioned in the series overview section up top, as in "From 2004 to 2008, Florida won 5 in a row..." etc., not details down to Harvin's injury and such. There have been a lot of streaks and trends in the series; that's what should be focused on up there (imo, of course).

Like I mentioned last year at about this time (see above), the The World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party article is a good model. Maybe this year I'll actually get back to working on this one... Zeng8r (talk) 14:32, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Done! Some of those removed game summaries could be moved to/merged with the game summaries at the season articles for each team. (They're accessable via the "history" tab...) Zeng8r (talk) 18:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

2008 a memorable game?
Though I personally enjoyed it, I seriously doubt that this year's game will be considered "memorable" in the rivalry, so it doesn't belong in the memorable games section. There were no shenanigans, no comebacks, no individual performances that will stand the test of time. Other than the weather, it was a pretty dull ballgame in the big scheme of things, especially when compared to the others in that section.

Anybody have a good reason why it should stay? Zeng8r (talk) 00:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It wasn't that memorable; just another game in the series. The favored team won, both teams were ranked but it wasn't a battle of two highly-ranked teams, a bit of a blowout and not a close game, not much controversy happened (even with a smattering of cheers for an inujred Percy Harvin).64.236.243.16 (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the 2008 does not deserve recognition in the article.AriGold (talk)

I would say that it was one, but for reasons that have not yet been listen on this page yet. I believe it was the largest win for the UF Gators in Tallahassee in the 50 years of the series. The once believed 'curse' of the Gators never winning in Tally and 'flukes' of UF winning in 04 and 06 have now been proven to be a break of the curse. UF dominated us, FSU, on our own field - where they previously collapsed, no matter how good they were in the past. Combined with the Harvin injury situation, being a signature game for florida to make a bcs case, the 50th game in the series, and the disgusting playing conditions, 2008 is a 'memorable game.' Keep 2008, and someone will add more later to it with these facts, like when I get around to it...haha. 128.227.50.13 (talk) 06:02, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to Flip Colors
The colors for this table are very hard to read, especially on the years that Florida won. In fact, it isn't easy at all to read and close to impossible.

Below are all the possible options I have come up with. I personally like option #3 for UF and option #1 for FSU. The Blue and Garnet will contrast well to make it easy to tell who won the game, while the white text will make it MUCH easier for everyone to read. Thoughts?

FSU Options
--The Sports Diatribe (talk) 21:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree; the current table is hard to read, and the third UF and first FSU versions are the best. Thanks for taking care of this! Zeng8r (talk) 04:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Article name
For the benefit of those in a hurry, here's the excerpt from WP:ENDASH that requires a space around the en-dash in this title but not in references to Florida–Georgia or Florida–Miami: "All disjunctive en dashes are unspaced, except when there is a space within either one or both of the items." —C.Fred (talk) 16:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Governor's Cup?
After looking at the List of NCAA college football rivalry games and seeing that the Florida Cup, not the Governor's Cup, is the three-way trophy between Florida, Florida State, and Miami, I can accept that the Governor's Cup applies to the UF–FSU rivalry specifically. However, it's not mentioned further in the article. Is there a source describing the trophy? If so, it should be mentioned here and also in the list of rivalries. —C.Fred (talk) 18:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Integration of History and notable games
Should the "Notable games" just be put into the history section? It seems people add games arbitrarily. While their have been plenty of classics for both sides, why is the 2009 game important other than it being Tebow's last home game? It certainly didn't add anything new to the rivalry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PaxonGator (talk • contribs) 00:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 2009 was also Bowden's last regular season game, so I think it's notable enough to include. As for integrating and reorganizing the article, I suggested that over a year ago (see above) and actually started it but haven't had time to finish the job. Feel free to move things along further... Zeng8r (talk) 01:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 2011 was the seminoles first win in the swamp since 2003.... yeah its memorable, maybe painful for same g8rs out there but keep it neutral pov and dont edit on a whim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.223.211.208 (talk) 12:02, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Consolidation, end of notable games
The history section and notable games has too much overlap. And considering there is always such a hissy fit over what is and isn't a notable game, we should just elimate the notable game section and integrate it into the history section. When there is suffecient info on a single game, then it can have it's own sub-section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaxonGator (talk • contribs) 00:56, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * We keep posting the same thing - my first comment on the matter was made 2 years, 1 month, and 6 days ago, and it's still true. (Been busy.)
 * However, I still don't think the memorable games section should be removed. Just like in the World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party article, the history section should be trimmed down to include only series trends and off-field events, leaving a memorable games section to highlight individual games of note. You're right - as it is now, there is way too much repeated info. Just haven't found the inspiration to clean it up myself. Zeng8r (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * We need to take our partisan fan hats off. There are games in the series which are truly notable: 1964, 1966, 1969, 1991, 1993, 1994 (2x), 1996 (2x) and 1997.  Most of the others were just games played, with a winner and a loser.  The best way to approach the selection of "notable games" for inclusion is to set a quota for each team's wins with a more or less equal number of wins for both teams.  That's how it was handled in the Florida–Georgia article.  Get a consensus of the five or six most memorable Florida wins, and the five or six most memorable FSU wins, and then you flesh out the one or two-paragraph game summaries with actual footnoted sources.  At the end, the Florida and Georgia-affiliated editors pretty much agreed on the notable games to include.  We should probably include at least one representative game from each of the 1970s and 1980s, too.


 * The major problem with the notable games section is that we have allowed casual Wikipedia editors to add every other game as "notable" simply because it was a win for their favorite team, and the article has suffered from WP:Recentism. Frankly, I'm not sure there's been a truly notable game in the series since 1997&mdash;most of the last decade belongs in the "Series history" as a discussion of the winning streak trends, coaching changes, and other off-the-field events.  The 2010 game section about photographs of Tebow was garbage, and I've deleted the entire section, while folding the trends and coaching changes back into the "Series history" section.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * While I don't totally agree with every specific deletion you've made, I've said for years that this article needs a good cleaning and reorganization. It's almost always new anonymous users (or established users editing incognito) who insert the cruft and/or message board smack, and they're almost always offended when it's cleaned up and/or removed. I just haven't had the energy to deal with it. Anyway, looks better already, imo. Zeng8r (talk) 17:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

location question
Question: Is there a specific location of Florida in which the Florida State fans tend to live and a specific part of Florida in which the U of F fans live? Or is it pretty much scattered equally throughout Florida? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.210.33.152 (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Proposed line-up of "notable games" for inclusion
I have reviewed my history books, game scores and available Google News Archive clippings for each of the Florida–Florida State games, and I have culled a list of "notable games" that I believe fairly represents each team as well as the rivalry series as a whole. Here is my proposed "notable games" list:

Florida wins:
 * 1966 – controversy regarding FSU WR Lane Fenner's catch (balances 2003)
 * 1969 – Florida's "Super Sophs" lead Gators to victory, 21–6, in the "Cappelman Crunch"
 * 1971 – winless Gators upset No. 19 Seminoles 17–15
 * 1986 – "Six straight over Florida State"
 * 1991 – 14–9 upset; one of the most intense defensive games ever played at Florida Field
 * 1997 Sugar Bowl – rematch of 1996 regular season game won by FSU; Bowl Alliance national championship
 * 1997 – one of Spurrier's greatest coaching moments, using rotating QBs to upset No. 1 Seminoles

Florida State wins:
 * 1964 – Seminoles first win in the series
 * 1977 – Seminoles WR Roger Overby single-handedly defeats Gators; Bowden's first series win, starting four-game streak and the beginning of a new era for FSU
 * 1993 – Heisman-winning QB Charlie Ward and freshman TB Warrick Dunn lead No. Seminoles to hard-fought win over No. 7 Gators, setting up first of FSU's two national championship
 * 1995 Sugar Bowl – "Fifth Quarter in the French Quarter" rematch following the "Choke at Doak"
 * 1996 – No. 2 Seminoles upset No. 1 Gators, 24–21, setting up a rematch for the Bowl Alliance national championship
 * 1999 – No. 1 Seminoles edge No. 4 Gators, 30–23, later win 2000 BCS national championship game
 * 2003 – "Swindle in the Swamp," widely commented on ACC officiating controversy led to a public apology by ACC commissioner (balances 1966)

Ties:
 * 1961 – Seminoles' moral victory results in 3–3 tie to chagrin of Gators
 * 1994 – "Choke at Doak," 28-point fourth-quarter comeback by No. 7 Seminoles knock No. 4 Gators out of contention for Bowl Coalition national championship game

Admittedly, the list is heavy on 1990s games, but that's not an accident. That's when several of the best games were played and when the series was running at a fever-pitch with both teams ranked in the AP top-10 virtually every game. If anyone would like to add another game, please propose which game you would remove from the list above in order to make room for your addition. The list above includes 16 of the 56 Florida–FSU games played to date; that should be a pretty darn good sample of the series' best. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Good list, imo, and great work so far on cleaning up this article. Only two suggestions:
 * 1) I don't know if the 1995 Sugar Bowl needs to be listed, as it ended up being a relatively boring game that was mainly played for bragging rights. Not sure what game should replace it, tho; probably should get an FSU fan's opinion.
 * 2) Alternatively, maybe we could just drop Florida's 1986 win. Yes, it concluded a long winning streak for UF, but both teams were unranked at the time and again only state bragging rights were on the line. Zeng8r (talk) 02:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I was thinking (uh oh), maybe instead of dropping a game from each side, the '95 Sugar Bowl should be replaced by the '98 game. The current text ("Not in Our House") doesn't really emphasize why the game is notable: due to injury, FSU started Marcus Outzen, a backup QB with almost no experience. Despite the high rankings for both teams, the Noles were pretty big underdogs because of the QB situation, but they pulled off the upset anyway due to defense, trick plays, and a fortunate ball bounce. And after the game, "The Rooster" never really contributed again. So there's that. Zeng8r (talk) 14:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yup, the Outzen story was a fairly compelling one, but I was comparing the 1998 game to the other 1990s storylines and the big picture significance of those games. The 1998 game was my next choice for another 1990s-era game, especially since it led to a berth in the first BCS championship game for the Seminoles (which they lost to Tennessee).  On the other hand, we already have 8 of the 12 games from the 1990s listed as "notable."  If we are going to include 1998, I would suggest that we fold the 1995 Sugar Bowl game into the the 1994 Choke at Doak as a one-sentence epilog.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I like the two-for-one plan for the 94/95 tie and rematch games. The more I think about it, the '98 contest really needs to be listed as well. Besides the Outzen factor, the pregame scuffle was indicative of the fierce nature of the rivalry at the time. Speaking of which, although the game itself doesn't belong in the notable games section, do you think the Darnell Docket / Ernest Graham knee-twisting incident deserves a mention somewhere in the article? Zeng8r (talk) 14:17, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * First I think we should determine how many games we want to include. Looking at other rivalries, there's little consistency, - they range from exactly none to a few paragraphs of prose giving some highlights - but 16 seems a bit much.
 * As for what's there, I normally like to hear about the first game (whether it was exiting or not), for historical reasons. I also wouldn't want to remove the 1995 Sugar Bowl altogether, as it was one of the rare rivalry games that happened post-season. Perhaps we could instead discuss it in the same paragraph as the 1994 "Choke in Doak", as they were in the same season.Cúchullain t/ c 14:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Zen, the best place for the Docket-Graham discussion is in the "Series history" section; I already have it on my checklist for additions to the general history of the Spurrier era. The aftermath was arguably one of the major reasons for Spurrier's departure after the season. The 2001 game itself is not particularly noteworthy&mdash;it was a Gators blowout whose outcome was never seriously in doubt. Unforeseen upsets, games with dramatic comebacks, and top-10 matchups tend to get the most media coverage, and also tend to be emphasized most in the various books about the two programs.

Cooch, I think we are unavoidably looking at 7 to 8 games from the 1990s, and that's driving the overall numbers. We can fold the 1961 tie into the series history (on reconsideration, there's no there there other than the "moral victory"), and combine the November 1996 game and January 1997 Sugar Bowl into a "battle for No. 1" paragraph. That cuts two games for a new total of 14, and I think we need to continue to include representative games from the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Dirtlawyer1 (talk)

I agree that there should be at least some mention of the Lane Fenner catch game; it was a point of contention for almost 20 years, and heated up the rivalry.

rivalry articles
There was a little back and forth this week via edit summaries, so just to get it onto the record...

Like any article on a controversial or contentious subject, sports rivalry articles can get heated as partisans try to make sure that their side is treated fairly and the other side doesn't inject their point-of-view too strongly. Hopefully, calmer heads prevail, and a good, well-sourced article emerges from discussion and compromise. This article has had several rounds of message board-style smack talk and reverts from both sides. Through much hard work, it has stabilized into a relatively fair and well-balanced text.

Over the last few years, the "Swindle in the Swamp" section has swung from widely pro-UF to wildly pro-FSU. The current text is the result of work from many editors, and the citations used are deliberately national news sources (ESPN, SI, CBS, etc.). There were even more sources at one point that were removed due to readability issues caused by so many superscript numbers. Like anything else on wikipedia, everything is revisable. However, changing well-established and over-sourced material like that section would require very good reasons and sources. Zeng8r (talk) 13:19, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

2012 game?
I'm not sure that this season's contest should be added to the notable games section, at least not yet. Yes, it was the first top-10 UF/FSU matchup in a while and it seems important now, we have to be careful to not to let recentism cloud our judgement. It's usually best to let a little time go by before determining whether or not an ballgame was truly memorable.

Even if it stays, the text as written doesn't include any sources and needs to be tweaked in tone. I'll take care of it if the consensus is to keep it. Thoughts? Zeng8r (talk) 20:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Zen, I have removed the unsourced 2012 game text for the time being, and I agree with your comment regarding recentism. Several months ago, we arrived at a comprehensive list of the most notable Florida-Florida State games with a balanced sample of Gators and Seminoles victories, as well as a balanced sample of games from the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s.  Having watched the last three games, I can't recall anything about them that makes them particularly noteworthy or memorable other than who won.  Perhaps we should be working on sourced text for those. . ..


 * Maybe I'll feel differently with time, but I just don't put any of the recent games in the same special category as 1991, 1994, the 1997 Sugar Bowl, or 1997. Maybe some FSU-affiliated editors feel differently about other games, and I would like to hear their opinions on point.  From my perspective as a Florida alumnus and Gators fan, I don't see the 2012 game as one that stands out as one of the top 5-10 games among the 34 Florida wins in the series.  I might also add that the best way, IMO, to select notable games in the series is to review the sports column retrospectives that are written in the lead-up and immediate aftermath of the game each year.  The columnists often have a much better long-term view of the series and its most memorable games than fans who are eager to memorialize the most recent victory of their favorite team.  I also think that methodology is more in keeping with the spirit of the notability guidelines of WP:GNG and WP:NEVENT, too.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The 2012 game was not memorable. Nobody got a national title berth, and it really only enabled UF to get a probable BCS at-large berth. I don't think the at-large would have been much of a problem if UF lost, either. They'd probably have gone to 9th or 10th if they lost. If that's a notable game, then every matchup of the 1990s was, too. I'm an FSU fan 71.203.103.237 (talk) 01:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comment, 71. I agree with much of your comments, especially regarding the 1990s, when almost all of the games seemed notable at the time.  That having been said, "notability" for Wikipedia purposes does not necessarily have anything to do with whether the game had national title or bowl implications; it's a Wikipedia policy concept that is largely based on the quantity and quality of published coverage that a subject receives in reliable sources.  You may find the general notability guidelines at WP:GNG and the specific notability guidelines for events at WP:NEVENT helpful.  In particular, WP:NEVENT looks at the published coverage regarding an event over time to determine the notability of a particular event.  As an example of continuing coverage helping to determine the notability of a CFB game, you can still find substantive mentions of the "Choke at Doak" 31–31 tie from 1994 in 2012 newspaper articles.  Clearly notable.  Who knows what the columnists will be saying about the 2012 game in 2030?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Overcoloring issues in the games table
The Gators colors completely fail to meet an acceptable contrast ratio for partially or fully color-blind readers; FSU is "sort of" compliant using the tool below. You can check this yourself using the Snook's Colour Contrast Check tool. But all articles should meet Manual_of_Style/Accessibility so as to accomadate our color-blind readers. From WP:COLOR "Some readers of Wikipedia are partially or fully color blind. Ensure the contrast of the text with its background reaches at least WCAG 2.0's AA level, and AAA level when feasible." We aren't here to support team spirit but build an encyclopedia. If the team spirit happens to be in compliance with WP:COLOR then huzzah. But most times they aren't due to the color choices. However, I suggest we change the font to white for both teams then they would meet all aspects of contrast accessibility. That way both teams can keep one of their primary colors as the background while only losing out on the font-color which is what creates the color accessibility issues. —  dain  omite   16:39, 5 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your insights, Dainmomite. I understand the problem and I recognize the orange text on a royal blue background is probably non-compliant.  I regularly work on Florida Gators articles, so I've encountered this problem before.  I think the simple solution is to reverse white text out of the royal blue background for the Florida Gators' wins.  (White is, after all, one of the Gators' colors.)  This combination has worked elsewhere.  As for the FSU wins, I would go with a paler shade of gold for the text, if necessary, to at least preserve some semblance of the Seminoles' colors.  Want to try it?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:52, 5 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Sure, here's a mock-up of your suggestion. It's hard to tell but this shade of gold is lighter; and with this lighter shade it becomes both WCAG 2 AA and WCAG 2 AAA compliant whereas before it was only WCAG 2 AA compliant.


 * What do you think? —  dain  omite   17:02, 5 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Works for me, sir. I suggest we implement it on the article page, and wait for further comments here on the talk page.  If no one vehementy objects after a week or so, I suggest that we implement the white on blue color scheme for the other Florida Gators rivalry articles, too.  I've already used blue on white for Florida Gators list articles and navboxes where I can control the table colors independently, but a number of the individual team infoboxes are tied to the school colors by the infobox template coding -- which requires some template re-jiggering beyond my skill set.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:22, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Implemented the suggestions.... and now we play the waiting game Yeah, unfortunately alot of the CFB rivalry pages are visually hard to read because of the contrasting colors. —   dain  omite   17:45, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. I suggest you slap your "legibility" template on the top of each of the Gators football rivalry articles to provide a preview of coming attractions to the editors who have those articles on their watch lists -- everyone likes a little advance notice to get used to change.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Surely, I went ahead and slapped template:overcolored on them. Some should be very straight forward like the UF-UGA and UF-TEN rivalries; just change the Gators' font color to white and the two game results will match quite nicely I think. —  dain  omite   05:38, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it's probably time to move on these other Gators football rivalry articles. . . Could you do a mockup for each talk page as you did here? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:34, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the late reply. Yeah I can start working on them. Want me to just make a new header on each rivalry talk page about the change? or centralize it somewhere?
 * P.S. jeez the Gators have a lot of rivalries. Us Badgers only have two. —  dain  omite   17:11, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If you can cut and paste a similar discussion to each talk page, I would be grateful. I already had to revert one attempted change of the color scheme on the Florida-Florida State article this weekend.  Everyone gets notice and a chance to voice their opinion, but I doubt this will be that controversial.  Most of the regular Florida Gators editors are already aware of the issue, and a talk page explanation to which we can refer goes a long way.
 * It may seem like the Gators have a lot of rivalries, but the rivalries with Auburn and Miami are really historical rather than current. Florida plays Auburn twice every 12 years under current SEC scheduling, and the next Miami game hasn't even been put on the calendar.  Florida State, Georgia and Tennessee generate most of the heat, and LSU is our officially designated annual SEC cross-division rival.  Just adding to the Wikipedia fun, random editors have tried to create rivalry articles for Alabama and South Carolina, too.  The Alabama rivalry article got deleted last year, and the South Carolina rivalry article is pending at AfD now.  Not every annual series is a "rivalry," but some folks don't seem to get this.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Size of logos
I would like to know if there's any way someone can change the size of the FSU logo to be equal to the UF one. Both are different sizes and it doesn't look right. Any help would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeminoleNation (talk • contribs) 00:48, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The images are the same height. Unfortunately, with the difference in the shape of the two wordmarks, I don't think there's any way to fix it. —C.Fred (talk) 00:59, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

2015 game in notable game section?
I removed the (really long) summary of the 2015 game from the notable game section. As discussed in 2012 (a Gator win which I was in favor of removing), the section is only for the most memorable games in the series - contests that had national championship implications for both teams, or had a truly memorable plays or controversy, or that somehow shaped the rivalry for multiple subsequent years. The year's game doesn't fit the criteria, imo. Including a (really long) summary hours after the final whistle is almost never a good idea, since it takes a little time for the significance of the game to become clear. (See WP:Recentism for a discussion of how to deal with issues like this.)

Anyway, if the game somehow becomes more notable in the future, the summary could always be retrieved from the article history. But unless that happens, it's just another game in the series. Zeng8r (talk) 20:25, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed. All of these college football "rivalry" articles suffer from similar problems, not least of which is that partisan fans of the winning team always want to include the most recent win of their team, which invariably winds up creating a long list of 25 or 30 not particularly noteworthy individual games.  The "notable games" section is supposed to be a highlights section, with examples of the most memorable games in the series.  The section is not supposed to include every game, every other game, or even every fourth or fifth game.  We would do well to limit ourselves to the all-time most memorable 10 or 12 in the series (or 5 or 6 wins by either team).  More is not always better, something often lost on less experienced writers and editors.


 * As an aside, I might also add that this article is poorly sourced, and the "notable games" section is particularly so. By comparison to the articles for the Florida–Georgia football rivalry and Auburn–Florida football rivalry, this article for a prominent CFB rivalry is long over due for a major re-write and addition of reliable mainsteam newspapers and other major sports media, and the removal of garbage sources like blogs and fansites.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:20, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Needed re-write
This article needs a substantial re-write, starting with the "evolving rivalry" section regarding the history since Spurrier and Bowden left Florida and FSU. This section is supposed to discuss the big picture trends of the rivalry in recent years, and it is not intended as an alternative or end-run around the "notable games" section, which includes 250-word summaries of the most historically significant and most noteworthy games in the rivalry's history. The "evolving rivalry" section should not have paragraph-long summaries of virtually every game in the last decade. The purpose of the rivalry history section is not to simply duplicate the "notable games" section. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:21, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

5th quarter in the French Quarter
The 5th quarter in the French Quarter football game between Fsu and Uf had some major relevance in the rivalry between the two schools in the mid 1990's. It was the first ever bowl game between the two schools while being a top 10 match between them as well. At the same time I do agree more people recognize the Choke at Doak ahead of this game that lead to the 5th quarter in the French Quarter game. Right now the game is mentioned in the Coke at Doak section but not much information is giving about the 5th quarter in the French Quarter or the Choke at Doak for that matter. I was planning on adding more detail to the Choke at Doak game and debating to have the 5th quarter in the French Quarter game is on section or just a sub part to the Choke at Doak. Any thoughts on should we have this game it’s on Small section or just adding it into the Choke at Doak as a sub section with a little information would be welcomed. KillerFrosty (talk) 21:30, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

2016 game
As per several discussions on this talk page going back to at least 2008 (scroll up to view), new games should only be added to the "notable games" section if they are actually notable, for example if there was a truly remarkable play or individual performance, an important milestone in the series (first game, first win by one of the rivals), or huge national implications. Also, even if a recent game seems to fit the criteria, it's best to wait for at least a few weeks to see if the probable notability actually has some staying power before adding it.

Just like most seasons, last Saturday's game was just another in the series that makes the winning team happy and the losing team sad, but you can't compare it to all of the much more impactful games in the "notable" section. By definition, every Florida-Florida State game can't be "notable". Zeng8r (talk) 11:44, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

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Sunshine Showdown
The "Sunshine Showdown" is not only baseball, but for most – if not all – sports. Both the Gators website and Seminoles website will back this up for football, as well as all sports (Florida State, University of Florida). Thus, Sunshine Showdown is a redirect to this article. There is no valid reason the logo cannot stay in the article. Corkythe hornetfan  (ping me) 02:10, 30 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The "Sunshine Showdown" name & logo are part of the "Fresh from Florida" marketing campaign for the Florida Department of Agriculture. (Here's the "official website" and a press release from last November introducing it.) As Google news searches indicate, it's barely been used by the media except for this year's UF / FSU baseball games, and I've never heard an actual fan use the phrase. And it's not necessarily a long-term partnership - FSU and Florida have made deals to link their rivalry with the Florida Dept. of Ag. before, most notably for a couple rounds of the infamous "Milk Challenge" sponsored by the Florida Dairy Farmers Association.


 * So I guess that adding the SS logo to the article is a creative way to get the actual team logos (as opposed to just the wordmarks) past the wiki fair-use police, but the "Sunshine Showdown" isn't really anything more than a temporary promotional campaign for local farmers. --Zeng8r (talk) 10:47, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
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Shouldn't the title of this article be "Florida State-Florida football rivalry"?
The article name should be edited to say Florida State-Florida. The official Sunshine Showdown logo and the official website at http://www.sunshineshowdown.com/ show the proper naming of this rivalry to be FSU vs UF. I've seen flyers at baseball and football games and these games are always advertised as Florida State vs Florida.

Even ESPN recognizes these match ups as FSU vs UF such as the football game on November 25, 2017 http://www.espn.com/college-football/game?gameId=400933933

Here is another example of ESPN recognizing the Florida State vs Florida basketball game in this same order. This is the game from December 4, 2017 http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=400986121

I believe that this needs to be corrected.--SeminoleNation (talk) 14:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * @SeminoleNation: If it were the Florida State University–University of Florida football rivalry, then you'd be correct. However, for consistency among rivalry articles, we alphabetize and title by common name, and Florida with nothing after it sorts before Florida State.
 * Also, both of your game examples were for games at Florida. ESPN typically lists (US) sporting events in the order of away-team vs. home-team: the 2016 game is listed as Florida vs. Florida State. —C.Fred (talk) 15:05, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Well, the official logo of the rivalry is not in that order.--SeminoleNation (talk) 15:11, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Let's see if it still is come fall; other rivalries alternate the "official" title and logo placement every year. —C.Fred (talk) 15:20, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Recent massive text deletion
@Glman Not sure why your solution to what you felt was insufficient sourcing was to delete massive chunks of text. Dropping in "citation needed" tags or banners is a much better practice than wildly taking a machete to a pretty good article such as this one, especially since you actually deleted several citations that were already included among the supposedly "unsourced" material.

Anyway, if you mark the sections in question, I'll find and drop in more citations this weekend. Thanks. Zeng8r (talk) 11:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * You are welcome to add citation, just as you were totally good to rv my edits. It is a totally reasonable solution to remove text that has gone unsourced for years. I look forward to seeing the properly sourced and written sections! glman (talk) 14:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)