Talk:Florida State Highway System/Archive 1

Naming Convention
This should not be changed to 'Florida state highways' to match the others. Legally and by FDOT they are known as State Road X or SR X.--SPUI 21:16, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Feel free to copy anything from the route log external link into Wikipedia. It is mine. Note however that there may be errors, notably 9823 (it's really part of 823). --SPUI 21:20, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * You have a dead link there, SPUI -- I was fortunate enough to get most of the information from the site that was archived at www.archive.org  B.Wind 18:19, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Dead link replaced with link to archived SPUI (Memorial) Freeway site. At least the text is there.  B.Wind 02:20, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes and no regarding 9823 -- my sources (maps, State sources, and Miami-Dade County) differ as some indicate that the hidden 9823 winds up on NW 68th Ave in Miami-Dade county. Similarly, sources differ as to whether Card Sound Road (and Bridge) is a state road (state shields are up) or a county road... but Miami-Dade County doesn't shield county routes (hence 970, which has Florida shields -- and no direction indicators -- but only in two places of the short elevated highway). B.Wind 18:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There still may be a hidden SR 815 as it was signed three or four decades ago, but it seems to be state-maintained. B.Wind 18:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * So you have an official source that shows SR 9823? All I've seen it on is one commercial map - FDOT info all shows it as an unmarked spur of SR 823. Nothing I've seen shows state maintenance in Miami-Dade, only in Broward. --SPUI (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * None that I have for here -- that's why it's in the talk section -- when you have State maps showing two ways, Miami-Dade planning maps showing two ways, and commercial maps showing four ways (none of which, by the way, indicate the Broward section to which you alluded, but the section in Broward must be part of the original routing of SR 823, which extended to the Palmetto Expressway -- then and now). Similarly, I have not attempted to add a page for SR 989 as two different FDOT documents show southern terminals several miles apart. B.Wind 02:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I now have conclusive evidence as to the original location of SR 823 prior to its relocation. In addition to Dade County planning maps dating from the early 1980s (they're at the Miami-Dade Library's main branch), I've also located it on commercial maps from Gousha (which, at its peak, was more reliable than Rand McNally) and Dolph Maps (based in Fort Lauderdale), plus an old AAA map of Dade (now Miami-Dade) County:  SR 823 originated at the Ludlam Road exit of the Palmetto Expressway (SR 826), went north along Ludlam Road (NW 67th Ave) until NW 68th Avenue branches off of Ludlam, then east on NW 183rd Street (SR 860 -- Miami Gardens Drive) before reconnecting with Ludlam Road at NW 67th Avenue (the first mile of it is now called Bobolink Drive as Ludlam Road was later rebuilt as a bypass to the east)... and Ludlam eventually becomes Flamingo Road as it reaches the Broward County line.


 * I have also found a new commercial source reflecting this former alignment as SR 9823 -- DeLorme Maps, which publishes a complete Florida road atlas. It's not an "official" source, but it's another piece of evidence, along with the Rand McNally and Universal local maps. As for governmental sources, they are so self-contradictory. B.Wind 08:10, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I have a 1980 FDOT Dade County map that shows nothing state maintained in that area - the furthest west is 860, which runs east from Red Road, 819, which runs south from 860 on Red Road, and 847, which runs north from 860 on 47th. Current FDOT data (GIS and pavement information) has Ludlam/Flamingo only state maintained north of the county line. Is it possible that the route south to 826 was signed but not state maintained? A 1975 Broward County map, by the way, shows 823 only running from 84 to 818. There is also an 823 shield with an arrow pointing at Flamingo right at the county line, but nothing is shown as state maintained there, and Flamingo isn't even show there, only Honey Hill. --SPUI (talk) 23:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Beware of extrapolating from county maps, both official and commercial, as they tend to "stop" or minimize at the county line; also, dated maps generally are prepared in the middle of the previous year. Thus a 1980 Dade County map would actually predate the Great Addition.  As far as the question of "State signed but not State maintained" is concerned, it is not unprecedented by any stretch of imagination in (Miami-)Dade County: from the 1950s to the late 1970s (at least) many southern Dade roads had Florida shields even though maintenance responsibility was retained by the county.  B.Wind 02:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Case in point: SR 989.  On one FDOT document, the southern terminus is at end of the northbound-Turnpike-to-southbound SW 112 Avenue offramp (on the other, SR 989 is shown extended south to SW 268 St to the former northern entrance of Homestead Air Force -- now Reserve -- Base), but the official Florida Highway Patrol site  indicates the southern terminus is actually the intersection of Allapattah Road (SW 112 Avenue) and SW 268 Street (Moody Drive), a couple of miles to the south of the turnpike.  Since the Turnpike's exit signs in both directions indicate that SR 989 extends further south, I tend to believe the FHP on this one. B.Wind 02:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * State maintenance definitely ends just south of the Turnpike; the signs are a fairly common error in showing the state road continuing when it really ends. This is also done for example at 566 and I-4 near Lakeland and 482 and I-4 near Orlando. The FHP is more of a secondary or tertiary source - they drive around and observe, and then write down how they think the roads are. --SPUI (talk) 03:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * To the contrary: the jurisdiction of the Florida Highway Patrol is specifically delineated in Florida State law. As the source I had cited was part of their official web site, it is as much a primary source as the FDOT sites.  As far as your stating that "state maintenance definitely ends south of the Turnpike," that conclusion couldn't come from the second site you cited below (definitely not the .pdf for Miami-Dade County, which also shows state maintenance for roads not on the State Road system), and with the FDOT and FHP with equal reliability in southern Florida, the only other conclusion was that the FDOT-placed exit signs and trailblazers indicate that SR 989 extends southward from the offramp from the northbound Turnpike to some point along Allapattah Road.  With that in mind, unless the Turnpike signs are replaced or I see additional signs to the contrary on that road, I shall concur with the FHP when I write the SR 989 article soon.  Before I write it, however, I must double-check Southwest 268th Street (Moody Drive) to ensure that all the 989 signs near Homestead Air Reserve Base have been removed. B.Wind 19:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Historic SR 27/Current SR 997
Since the historic SR 27 became SR 997 in the 1980's, and since Wikipedia is trying to cut down on redirects, not add to them, it is best to have them both on the same page (and all links pointed directly to it). We should also be minimizing the broken links, not add to the sea of red we have right now. B.Wind 02:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not trying to cut down on redirects. --SPUI (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Nonetheless, we should be changing the red into blue whenever possible, not the other way around. B.Wind 02:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * By making redirects, not by changing the links. --SPUI (talk) 03:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Let's remember that we're here for the same reason -- to help provide information to others with want or need specific information on Florida State Roads. You can't "change a link" if there is no active link in the first place. Certainly you must agree that a sea of blue serving the purpose of the Florida State Roads article is far superior to a sea of red that doesn't and today's direct link is preferable to tomorrow's proposed redirect. Of course, if you want to preserve the original (dead) link, all that is needed to be done is to write the article. B.Wind 19:40, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

FDOT/signage inconsistency
I don't know if there are similar problems in other parts of the State of Florida, but determining the routes in Miami-Dade County, or rather, the termini, is complicated by having multiple conflicting cues. In addition to SR 989 (mentioned above), when a supposedly authoritative source like FDOT is directly contradicted by two other authoritative sources (the FHP and Turnpike Exit signs), we have:


 * A general lack of route END signs, excluding those at the end of US and Interstate highways and Florida-signed expressways (a notable exception: the southern end of SR 997 is signed END).


 * A lack of reassurance signage throughout the county. The most blatant example is near the western terminus of SR 986, where motorists traveling in either direction on SW 117th Avenue near SW 72d Street sees trailblazers in both directions, turns west... and doesn't see anything indicating that he/she is on the state highway (according to FDOT, SR 986 ends directly under Florida's Turnpike, but there is no such indication anywhere).


 * On the other hand, SR 916 is supposed to have its eastern terminus on US 1 -- but US 1 has trailblazers of SR 916 east and west, and there is a reassurance sign one-half block to the east of the US highway. The REALLY interesting thing is that the section east of US 1 is essentially a dead-end street as the City of North Miami has blocked automobile access to Florida International University from this street.


 * Similarly, until 2001, eastbound US 41 had a reassurance sign between Collins Avenue (SR A1A) and Ocean Drive a block to the east -- if this were true, it would mean that US 41 had one block without a hidden SR number until it was truncated to US 1 in the Brickell section of Miami. As it is, a pair of cross streets of Biscayne Blvd show US 41 trailblazers despite the truncation.


 * In the case of SR 933, only the southern end appeared to be signed, and with one exception that I could find so far, with only trailblazer signage. State Route 907A has no shields whatsoever along its mile-long route -- it is identified by trailblazer signage only to those traveling west on SR 112.


 * FDOT erecting incorrect US highway shields for State Roads (and vice versa) occur with some regularly. Trailblazers showing "US 817" and "US 852" still stand; until a 2001 truncation, there was a "WEST SR 41" reassurance sign on US 41/SR A1A near SR 907.


 * Finally, over the past 10 years, there have been truncations right and left without previous announcement. Signs have disappeared from the streets but not necessarily from the maps and the web sites (for example, the eastern end of SR 976).  Such is the state of Miami-Dade State Roads.

B.Wind 21:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That's not to say that FDOT doesn't have a sense of humor with its signs. Near downtown Miami, signs directing southbound US 1 traffic to eastbound SR A1A have A1A shields with the "1" backward. B.Wind 19:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Not sure if you're aware, but two accurate sources for state maintained roads (not always the same as state signed roads) are the FDOT GIS data and FDOT pavement management reports. They both use the same ID numbers for easy comparison. I recommend the GIS data with a free viewer like ArcExplorer.

As for signage, FDOT seems pretty good in most areas - there may be problems with the specific district that covers Miami. --SPUI (talk) 00:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * These "problems" have been going on for the past 20-25 years here. B.Wind 19:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems that they're also having problems keeping secret routes secret. There are FL-375 reassurance signs in each direction on US-319 at the junction with Wakulla County Road 372, and FL-369 signs have popped up at each end of that designation (each time also with arrows also pointing in the direction that is not 369 but 61 instead...) - Aerobird 03:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it seems the only absolute regarding "secret" routes is that they "try" to hide them for the Interstates. The so-called "hidden" SR 821 actually shows up in street signs (most notably on the Tamiami Trail) as "H.E.F.T. SR 821"; SR 805 was supposed to be a secret route (who many State Roads are one way their entire length), but someone at FDOT thought otherwise.  There seem to be far more "secret" county roads than State Roads (Miami-Dade County never signs County Roads!). But SR 913, 4080, and 4081 live on... and possibly 815. B.Wind 04:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Secondary routes
Are ex-secondary routes included in the main table? - Aerobird 02:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Never mind - they are, I would have known if I'd looked harder. - Aerobird 02:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, Aerobird. The impression that I have for this project (official or no) is that ultimately we need to cover all the current FSRs and include the important former ones (for example, I've included the former SR 27, 515, 605, 5098, and the soon-to-be written article for the former 815). The completely discontinued ones in southern Florida had their numbers italicized in the table, and the less notable ones had redirects to one article (Former Florida State Roads in southern Florida) - after all, how much can one write about the former SR 720? All the S- and C- prefixes made their initial appearance in the late 1970s to start the transition to county maintenance (but in some cases, FDOT changes its mind; for example, the former S-882 was lengthened and became SR 882!). So, verification of status is necessary if we're going to use it here. Pardon my wordiness here, but I hope it helps (...and thank you!). B.Wind 03:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

372 and its spawn
Can anybody confirm if Wakulla County Roads 372A (2 parts, Bottoms Rd + Otter Lake Rd) and 372B (Levy Bay Rd) were formerly state routes? The numbers would seem to imply it, but I don't have any proof... - Aerobird 17:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll research it at first opportunity - I have few detailed historical (before 1995) maps covering that part of Florida, but I can check the records in downtown Miami in a couple of weeks. Based on both of the routes being spurs of SR 30 (and not the former SR 372, Surf Road, which was 3-4 miles south of them), I doubt that they were SRs. B.Wind 19:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

A January 1963 FDOT county map, reprinted January 1970, shows 372A heading west from Panacea and east from north of Panacea, and 372B heading southeast from 30/372A in Panacea and southeast from 30 in Panacea. The first section of 372B - Walker Street, Clark Drive and Rock Landing Street to Levy Bay - was added to the map January 1965. The other - Levy Bay Road and Satilla Avenue - was on the map from its first printing, as were both 372As. FDOT GIS data shows all four of them, though the northern 372B now intersects 30 further north and apparently doesn't use Rock Landing Street. --SPUI (T - C - RFC) 23:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

This is interesting
--SPUI (T - C - RFC) 23:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Apparently the State Road marker is Standard Index No. 173555, sheet 4 of 12. It doesn't seem to be online. --SPUI (T - C - RFC) 23:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ahhhh, here it is. Woot. --SPUI (T - C - RFC) 23:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll be redoing the toll shields with the correct outline, as the PDF says that the use the same one as free roads. --SPUI (T - C - RFC) 00:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

a list
For minor roads like this some sort of list would be much better. TimL 22:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

new infobox
I have created a new infobox for Florida State Roads. See State Road 87 (Florida) for the first road that I have put it on. It will look much cleaner once all the shields have been created. --Holderca1 00:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Changing the above link to point to SR 87, all the shields exist for it so it looks a lot better. --Holderca1 16:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * We already have an infobox - see State Road 9. --SPUI (T - C) 04:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Interupted State Roads
I have to disagree with the statements concerning the Alternate State Roads in this section. The alternates are usually loops or spurs and rejoin their parent route. Saying that these are interupted roads is like saying that Interstate 110 is interupted several times and the U.S. Route 90 Alternate in East Texas is a interupted highway between there and the Penacola area. Does FDOT say somewhere that these highways are interupted? If not, I believe they should be removed. --Holderca1 19:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Where do you see a statement of this type regarding Interstate or US Highways? I read the section of the article several times, and all I see are references to State Road designations that have been placed on roads that have several "pieces" (like the several SR 30A's). Keep in mind that FDOT does not necessarily assign the same State Road number to the US or Interstate route - US 27, 41, and 441 each has several different SR designations. But, yes, there are two separate sections for SR 15 - three for SR 78 - and even SR 909 has a two-block interruption (it's signed SR 922) near where I live and where I work. All of this can be verified by looking at a local road map. 147.70.242.40 22:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't refering to US Highways or Interstates, I was refering to the alternate state roads that are listed and shouldn't be there. 30A may be broken up into several pieces, but it is not an interupted state road.  It would be if it did not connect with its parent highway SR 30.  Alternates are usually old alignments of the parent road and renamed as an alternate.  --Holderca1 18:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't seem right...
I thought people here would get a kick out of a picture I took at Test Track at Epcot in Walt Disney World: Shorelander 06:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Latest FDOT GIS Shapefile
Using a modified SHP2TEXT program, I extracted all of the shapefile records, removed the duplicates, and sorted them. There are numerous roads that are present in the list on the main page, that have been removed. There are a handful of "new" roads. I can see putting the new roads in immediately, but is the FDOT considered _the_ source? I would think so, but it also doesn't have any GIS data for SR 4081. I was going to change the table, but there are 36 "deletions", and 10 "additions" for the list.

Perhaps SPUI could run this latest database to update his graphic.