Talk:Flower of Scotland

God Save The Queen
God grant that Marshall Wade,/May by thy mighty aid,/Victory Bring,/May he sedition hush,/And like a torrent rush,/Rebellious Scots to crush/God Save the King!

The entry contained factual inaccuracies. It referred to a verse having 'anti-Scottish' lyrics but they were in fact anti-Jacobite, as it was written at the height of the Jacobite Rebellion. 'Rebellious Scots' (note the absence of the definite article) it referred to were Jacobites (of all nationalities; though the House of Stuart had a Scottish origin).

In a piece that is concerned about Bannockburn, it seems to be more confusing than clarifying to drag a completely different confrontation into the issue.

Essentially if anything it was an anti-Catholic lyric in spirit, the Rebellion itself having originated by the Catholicism of the Jacobites as opposed to the Protestantism of the Hanoverians. Since there were very many loyal Hanoverians in Scotland (probably outnumbering the Jacobites) it is misleading to suggest the lyric had an anti-Scottish slant. The word 'Scots' used probably simply because it scanned better on the verse. Stevouk 10:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Most Jacobites in Scotland were Episcopalians, not Catholics. The lyric was indeed anti-Scottish and the above apologia is not convincing. It was only part of GSTQ for a short time but this was enough to make most Scots detest having it as their official National Anthem.

Exile 22:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This sounds like a POV to me. My comments were not intended as an apologia for God Save The Queen, merely to point out that the 'Scots' in the verse were Jacobites (of whatever nationality) - whom else would Wade have been sent to quell? And for what reason other than for their 'seditious' Jacobite activities? Read any other way the lyric would have to suggest that the Scots were being quelled simply because they were Scots- a meaningless suggestion if ever there was one. My reference to Catholicism related to the simple fact that what debarred the Jacobite succession in the first place was their Catholicism. In any event, what evidence do you have for the statement 'most Scots'? Stevouk 23:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It was clearly referring to the Jacobites as it was written at the time of the jacobite rebellion

"'GAINST WHO?", "THAT'S WHO!", "WHAT FOR?"

Is it worth noting the popularization of shouting during the chorus of "Flower of Scotland", specificly:

And stood against him ("'Gainst who?"),

Proud Edward's army ("That's who!", "Bastards!", "Wankers!"),

And sent him homeward ("What for?"),

Tae think again

Also, of the clips I've seen from Rugby and Football, the verse beginning with "the hills are bare now" wasn't sung, is this commonplace?

Rob McDougall 04:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the national debate has been more about the musical merits of the contenders, not the religion or politics. While Flower of Scotland appeals to that part of the Scottish character that loves beating the English, it is poignant and a bit mournful. The best anthems of other great countries are rousing and majestic. The best foot stamping anthem we have in Scotland these days is the traditional The Bonny Bonny Banks (of Loch Lomond) as re-worked by Runrig and now played and sung at almost every wedding reception just before Auld Lang Syne. But why not have a National competition sponsored by the Executive to get a brand new anthem to suit a new Scotland? We have a wealth of musical talent ranging from Peter Maxwell Davies to Franz Ferdinand via Tommy Smith. And it would be fun!


 * The shouts should definitely go in, IMO. The argument about anthems will no doubt run and run, but Flower of Scotland seems to have carried the day with the people who actually go around singing national anthems.  And tunewise it's no worse than many countries...personally I favour Scotland the Brave, but that's by the bye.  Don't get Peter Maxwell Davies to do it if you want something playable on pipes!  Actually, there is a movement every ten years or so to write ourselves a new anthem, a competition is held, a winner (generally with a vacuous and annoying composition) is announced, and everyone carries on singing Flwoer of Scotland.  It's happened three times in my lifetime, and it probably won't be the last.


 * As for GSTQ, it is seen in Scotland (for whatever reason) as being an English anthem, rather than a British one. Its origins don't help the case for it. Calum 22:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyone want to explain why someone deleted the lyrics to this song?

The lyrics are not deleted, they are hidden in collapsable boxes in order to not distract from the article. -- Brideshead (leave a message) 17:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Battle
It was my understanding that Roy Williamson was actually referring to the defeat at Flodden where the "flowers of the forest were a' wede awa'" Brendandh 18:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong - the "Flowers of the Forest" is a song in its own right and Roy WIlliamson was definitely referring to Bannockburn in The Flower of Scotland. Check the Corries own site if you doubt it. However I think something is incorrect in the main article though I unfortunately have no proof. I was Scottish rugby fan in the early to mid-70s and can remember singing The Flower of Scotland on the terraces at Murrayfield before the tour of South Africa. The song was popular with the younger, more boisterous elements of Scotland's support whilst the toffs in the Stand continued to sing God Save the Queen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.209.139 (talk) 19:54, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of Lyrics
I always thought "flower of Scotland" referred to the thistle but i have recently been told it actually refers to the youth of Scotland. Is this correct ?

Gonzo1982 16:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The thistle is an emblem of Scotland, like the fleur-de-lys for France or the shamrock for Ireland. In this song, though, I believe "flower" is a metaphor.  As such, it can mean the best in a period of time ("the flower of his youth"), or the best members of a group ("...the flower of our country...").  So in the lyrics, those who fought and died, who stood against Edward, are seen as the flower, the best, of Scotland.  Some other examples of this metaphor in a military context:
 * The 18th Georgia Volunteers were described as "the flower of Lee's army" in the U.S. civil war.
 * William Manchester wrote of Gamelin sending "the flower of the French troops" to Flanders in 1940.
 * Sir Ian Hamilton wrote in 1915, "These New Zealanders and Australians and, best of all, the Australian Light Horse and the New Zealand Mounted Rifles, and above all the last named, are the flower of our troops or of any other troops in the world."
 * Winston Churchill fretted that a premature invasion of Europe would leave the beaches of France "choked with the bodies of the flower of American and British manhood."
 * — OtherDave 23:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Deleted inaccurate text
I have deleted the following text from the article:

"On 20th of October, 2008, the Scottish Government announced that Flower of Scotland has been removed from the competing list of potential national anthems for Scotland."

As far as I can see, this is a misinterpretation of the news that Flower of Scotland has been knocked out of a competition to find Scotland's best-loved song — see, for example, this BBC article dated 2008-10-20. Dricherby (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Composition on Northumbrian pipes
This is mentioned in Karen Williamson's book "Roy Williamson, My Father". I don't have a copy so can't add a proper cite, but if anyone has a copy lying around a cite would be a very handy contribution, thanks :) Calum (talk) 12:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Can someone musical include something about the fact that that the note on "think" (think again) can't be played on the big pipes, so it is always a semitone too high when played on the pipes, missing out one of the key celtic musical characteristics of the melody - and the people singing it have to either follow this, or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.109.175 (talk) 14:23, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

RSNO poll
I have fixed the result for Scots Wha Hae. It achieved only 6 percent in the poll on the RSNO's website, not 7%. The fact that the table comes to 99% and not 100% is due to rounding of the figues. Panthro (talk) 11:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Copyright
This song is still copyright, which doesn't completely bar quoting the full lyrics, however putting them under GFDL does, I would say. Rich Farmbrough, 14:31, 26 November 2009 (UTC).
 * Also th4e capitalisation is wrong and the source repeats verse 1 at the end, and is hardly an RS "The various services once located at www.geo.ed.ac.uk have either been retired, moved or in a few cases remain for historical and technical reasons. An even smaller number remain in limbo because we don't have the resources to do anything about them and are not sure whether anyone wants them any more. " Rich Farmbrough, 14:37, 26 November 2009 (UTC).
 * We can't realistically quote the lyrics in full. Short quotations (which would be less than half a verse) would probably be OK. Stifle (talk) 15:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Are the Scots and Gaelic versions in any sense official or definitive? PatGallacher (talk) 11:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Nope, they ain't. And the more annoying thing is that the spelling of the Braid Scots keeps being changed from West to Borderland, to Doric and thenceforth. Think it may better to remove the alternatives, and stick with the official version, which ironically is the English! Brendandh (talk) 12:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Scottish Football Association
"The Press" newspaper, published in Christchurch New Zealand, reported in its edition of 12 September 1977, that 'The Scottish Football Association has pleased advocates of home rule for Scotland by changing from "God Save the Queen" to "Flower of Scotland" as the song to sing before international matches. 'But what the Scottish F.A. apparently did not realise was that "Flower of Scotland" commemorates the sixteenth century Battle of Flodden in Northumberland - a considerably worse defeat by the English than ever the 9-3 rout at Wembley in 1961' 'NZPA London

So apart from getting the historical fact wrong in the second paragraph, this article suggests that the Scottish FA had adopted the song considerably earlier than the year of 1997 suggested in the main article. James Scott, Lower Hutt, New Zealand — Preceding unsigned comment added by jayelless 222.153.171.106 (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Songs, or tunes?

National Anthems are not necessarily songs, The Marcha Real (Spanish pronunciation: [ˈmartʃa reˈal], "Royal March") is the national anthem of Spain. It is one of only four national anthems (along with that of Bosnia and Herzegovina, San Marino and the Republic of Kosovo) in the world to have no official lyrics.[1]

"Although there is no official national anthem of Scotland, Flower of Scotland is one of a number of songs which unofficially fulfil this role, along with the older Scots Wha Hae, Scotland the Brave and Highland Cathedral.[1][2]"

This sentence implies that Highland Cathedral is older than Flower of Scotland.

The sentence implies that Scotland the Brave and Highland Cathedral, and Scots Wha Hae are songs.

The article could clarify the dates of the tunes and specify which words were compared to the song Flower of Scotland for the referenced Scottish national anthem competition.

The song:

Flower of Scotland 1967,

The tunes: Highland Cathedral 1982; numerous words have later been composed and sung to the tune.

Scotland The Brave, tune from around 1891-95; words were added by Cliff Hanley 1923-1999, in 1951.

Scots Wha Hae, (tune is 'Hey Tuttie Tatie') that predates Bannockburn 1314, words added by Burns 1793. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Braeburn8 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Dating in lede
The second sentence in the lede suggests that Highland Cathedral (1982) is older than Flower of Scotland (1965). Is that just wrong or am I missing something?  Tigerboy1966  22:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, this is a redundant point, already raised above. Just been WP:BOLD and changed the wording.  Tigerboy1966  22:16, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Lyrics
Is there any reason not to add the lyrics? The fact that some group sang this traditional song surely doesn't mean they own the rights over it?--Michael (talk) 07:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * nvm, thought it was much older. Why can't they use a real traditional song?--Michael (talk) 07:23, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Why should we have to use a "traditional" one when this one means so much to us? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.111.80 (talk) 18:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Copyright
The author died in 1990 so there is still some copyright left. It was death +7 years but this was extended to death +70 years so will expire in 2060. But Wikipedia follows US law. QuentinUK (talk) 16:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I have removed the lyrics for this reason. Please do not restore. MER-C 17:17, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Flower of Scotland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100829194041/http://www.corries.com/news.php to http://www.corries.com/news.php
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20120731055905/http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/flower-of-scotland.html to http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/flower-of-scotland.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:07, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Flower of Scotland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716121213/http://sixnations.sportinglife.com/features/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby%2F06%2F02%2F02%2Fmanual_113529.insdat to http://sixnations.sportinglife.com/features/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby%2F06%2F02%2F02%2Fmanual_113529.insdat

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 13:37, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Lyrics: Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. MER-C 17:18, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Sound file
If the only sound file available is a completely atypical, ponderously slow version it is better that it is not added. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:05, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * What's more, the copyright status of the file would appear to be questionable as it has been taken from a commercial recording uploaded to YouTube. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:33, 25 December 2019 (UTC)