Talk:Fly fishing/Archive 1

Possible Terminology Section?
I actually came to this article looking for some more background information (since I'm just starting to dive head first into this myself) and was looking for explanations of terms like action, load/unload (in terms of a fly rod), and some of the more technical differences between fly rods, (like, one handed, two handed and spey rods)

Is this valid? Would this article benefit from having some basic terminology for new fly fishing initiates (like myself)?

theCelestrian

WP:NOT states that we can build glossary pages for specialized terminology. I'm not sure what the current thinking is on including a terminology section within the article itself. Maybe the best thing to do is just write the section–but move to a glossary page if anybody complains. EricR 18:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is there a lot to do
First some facts

AFTMA Fly line weight ratings (grains) Weight 	Grains 	Tolerable Rang

1      60      54-66

2      80      74-86

3      100     94-106

4      120     114-126

5      140     134-146

6      160     152-168

7      185     177-193

8      210     202-218

9      240     230-250

10     280     270-290

11     330     318-342

12     380     368-392

Grains are weighed over front 30 feet of line.

ST DT WF SH ?

I don't think that the casting section is very good

"using the wrist to soften the motion" If you do that you are making large loops and there for reduce line speed

''"Generally, the rod is moved from the 10 o'clock position to the 2 o'clock position without letting the line touch the water or ground." '' Hmm stop using the wrist then the water stops being a problem

"The objective of this motion is to "load" the rod tip with energy and allow the energy to travel the length of the fly line creating distance and control." The art of fly casting is to use the whole rod ''

"This motion, known as 'false casting', can be used to pay out line, dry a soaked fly, reposition a cast, or show off one's casting abilities. False casting continues until the desired amount of fly line is airborne:"

This is bad!!!! Chep false cast to a minimum. casting spokes fish NEVER False cast over fish False cast is used to load the rode, can if you realy good be done in 1/2 False cast (back) The trick is to start with the rod tip low nerly in the wather with no slack in the line then you can shoot the line the distance that you need 15 - 25 m. Drying flys well make a cirkel with the rood tip in the first part of the back strock then the fly will accelerate out of the wather and make cirkel movment in the air and the will be wiped out of the fly. (looks nice to and easy to learn)

"perhaps as little as 3m (roughly 10 feet) for small streams, but averaging around 10m (30 feet) in most freshwater conditions. Anything over 18m (60 feet) in freshwater is likely to impress fellow anglers more than the fish," yes most fish are likly to be close up but there are situasjons that you need to have the distence there. its nice to be able to cast 30 or even 40+

This is bad we need people that know this stuff to edit this it was by chance that i bumpt in to this site Even if i know i thing or to about this stuff (Pro) Im dyslestix and from Norway ....

Even if this info needs to be generic Please don't but in faults

SHF

Ummm... underwater "terrestrials"?
The article states "Wet fly fishing is subdivided into various types such as nymphs, streamers, emergers, terrestrials, and true wet flies. They may be fished on all types of water, but they are all fished beneath the surface of the water."

I thought terrestrials were naturally dries?! They fall from the banks onto the water and usually float nearby the water surface, if not on it. For example... Gum beetles, club sandwich, stimulator, and turck's tarantula. I've fished a mini muddler as a terrestrial before (without any luck) but, that can be intended to float just under the water's surface, as a true wet fly. I think of wet flies kind of differently than streamers and nymphs, personally.

I know I'm kicking tires, but, I love to kick tires about fly fishing :) *thumbs up* -- Protocoldroid 04:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, while terrestrials are mostly dry (topwater) fly, there are terrestrials that are fished subsurface (such as the wet ant) and are intended to represent a drowned insect. 'Wet fly' covers a broad territory and there is no real agreement except that the wet fly is is a type of fly that is fished subsurface.

Modified the overview a bit
Hi all!

First, thanks for writing an article on this topic of great personal importance - to us all, I think! Nice work! I am now trying to contribute to the best of my abilities.

To start with, I made some modifications to the overview section of this article. I hope something like this is allowed and not taken as a sign of arrogance. My only interest is to make the sections concerning fly fishing as good as possible. Anyway, I modified the beginning so that the first paragraph now (hopefully) defines what fly fishing is. I also modified the sections below a bit to allow some generalizations: flies need not be tied on hooks (e.g., tube flies), line weight is not used always to deliver the fly (water lobbing, elliptical casts), dries need not be treated with a floatant, and one can use multiple flies at once. I also added a two-word explanation to the concept of "streamers" (probably a completely unknown concept to a first-time reader, whereas "nymphs" and "emergers" at least provide a hint).

I will be looking through the other sections in the future.

All the best,

Jarmo H


 * Hi, please do not make the 'Overview' Section a colossal repetition of the material contained in the body of the article. There is no need to needlessly include a complete description of fly casting in the overview; that is already covered in the 'How To' Section.  Article length should also be taken into account when going into the minutiae of specific types of fly lines, etc. - this is a general article on fly fishing.  Instead, start or add to a more specific topic 'fly lines', 'artificial fly', etc. if you plan to add much detail on specific aspects.  - T 30 OCT 2006


 * I am commenting, 3 years later, so I am unaware of all the history relating to the overview.
 * I agree that the overview should not repeat too much of what comes later. However, I do think that the first paragraph should include a basic definition (something akin to "In fly fishing, fish are caught by using artificial flies that are cast with a fly rod and a fly line").  Readers come to Wiki from around the world, with varying degrees of knowledge about fishing.  Sometimes, merely because they saw the term "fly fishing" in a novel.  At the least, readers should learn immediately that fly fishing does not use real flies. NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 16:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Overview: tried to improve the definition of dry/wet
I tried to clarify the definition of dry/wet. Firstly, I removed emergers from the list of wets, because a lot of them are really dries (according to our definition, according to which a partly submerged fly is a dry). Also, the association between dry (wet) flies and dry-fly (wet-fly) fishing is not one-to-one, so I modified the text to reflect this. I also removed the sentence about streams vs. lakes from this paragraph, because it seemed to be somewhat unnecessary at this point of text.

Jarmo H 09:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok my revert
Happy New Year Eagle....just wanted to let you know that I reverted back an article you changed Fly Fishing. I believe you thought there was vandalism but in actuality, I though, a well written contribution by Mike. Once again "Happy New Year". Shoessss 20:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted because I am and was patrolling for spam. Adding 4 links to website forums, seems to qualify to me as extra fluff that takes away from the quality of the article. I would advise that most if not all of those should be removed, per our guidelines on external links. If any of them are useful, please include them as citations, just remember to check and make sure that they are reliable sources. I am sorry that I had reverted the rest of an otherwise good edit. —— Eagle 101 (Need help?) 21:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Note this message is also on the talk page of Fly fishing

I did see your comments on Mike's page about the links....I'll go an clean them up. Just wanted to give you a heads up on what was going on. Shoessss 21:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing the External Links guidelines, I removed the Fly Fishing forum links. They are useful but were not appropriate. --Mike Cline 21:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Fly Fishing Destinations
I propose creating a completely new article entitled Fly Fishing Destinations and completely removing the section entitled "Popular Locations". The volume of information that could be included under this topic is extraordinary and would benefit from some geographical organization--by state, country, etc. and references to available species. There is already alot of good information in wikipedia on lots of bodies of water--lakes, rivers, streams, oceans. etc that would not have to be duplicated. If we began adding that type of information to the "Popular Locations" heading, this article would become extremely large and unwieldy. Additionally, the heading "Popular" is somewhat subjective. Who determines what is popular? Any thoughts? --Mike Cline 21:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The "Popular locations" section, in my opinion, has become a problem. As Mike has said, "popular" is a POV term and there is no way to measure what is and what isn't "popular". Consequently, everyone feels compelled to list his favourite spot leading to substantial creep in the size and cohesiveness of the section. I've pulled the section and archived it here just in case someone has a use for it. (Oops, forgot to sign) &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 13:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "Popular locations"
 * Freshwater fly fishing is practiced throughout the United States, with the greatest number of fly fisherman located in the northern United States and Canada, especially the Rocky Mountain States of Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, California, Alaska, and the provinces of British Columbia and Alberta. West Yellowstone is arguably the hub for fly fishing in North America, though the wild waters of Alaska almost certainly surpass any of the lower 48 states for size and number of fish caught.  Famous North American waters include Henrys Fork (home to Mike Lawson) and Silver Creek (Ernest Hemingway's favorite haunt) in Idaho, Glacier National Park and the Yellowstone, Bighorn, Bitterroot and Madison Rivers in Montana, the Kenai River in Alaska, the Deschutes, North Umpqua, and the Rogue Rivers in Oregon, the Pit, Hat Creek, McCloud River, Owens and the East Walker Rivers in California, the Upper Delaware and the Green River in Utah, the Arkansas, Frying Pan, South Platte and the Blue Rivers in Colorado,  Lee's Ferry on the Colorado River in Arizona, the San Juan river and Rio Chama in New Mexico, the Watauga River in northeast Tennessee, the Nueces and Guadalupe Rivers of Texas, the White River in Arkansas, and the Tellico River in North Carolina.


 * Other popular fly fishing destinations include the Canadian Maritime provinces and Newfoundland and Labrador, Island Lake river and God's Lake River in northern Manitoba for Brook Trout, the upper Great Lakes region, New England. Most of the Appalachian corridor also offers abundant opportunities for fly fishing, both for trout and for smallmouth bass.  Many of the traditional “Holy Waters” of North American fly fishing can be found in these areas: New York’s Beaverkill River, Michigan’s Au Sable and Two Hearted rivers (the latter made famous by Hemingway’s “Big Two-Hearted River” although there is widespread agreement that internal evidence in the story suggests he was actually describing the nearby Fox river), Wisconsin’s Bois Brule River, Pennsylvania’s Letort River, Penns Creek, and numerous others.  There are also tens of thousands of miles of lesser known smaller rivers and streams. One of the lesser known rivers in New England is The Upper Connecticut. In Northern New Hampshire close to the Canadian Border the river is a fast flowing stream that feeds many lakes on its way to Long Island Sound. Brown and Rainbow Trout and Land-Locked Salmon are numerous on The Trophy Stretch   in the Pittsberg, New Hampshire area.


 * In Europe, Scandinavia is a popular destination for fly fishing, especially for salmon, and good trout fishing may be had in the Alpine mountain regions of Austria, Italy, Yugoslavia, Germany, and Switzerland. England is still home to the sport as well, varying from the stunning chalk streams in south to remote hill lochs in the north. In addition to River Test, River Itchen, the Kennet, the Lambourn, and the Avon in the same area of southern England may also be considered legendary.  Along with the River Don and the River Dee, Scotland boasts the River Spey after which an entire genre of two-handed fly rods and casting techniques is named. Ireland has some of the most prolific sea trout and salmon fishing known. There is also abundant brown trout, pike, etc. The Connemara Region, along with its stunning scenery, holds Lakes Corrib, Mask And Conn with spectacular fishing for numerous species. The rivers, streams and estuaries are too numerous to name. Saltwater fly fishing is also rapidly growing in popularity both in the Atlantic and The Irish Sea.


 * On the other side of the globe, the active geothermal area around Lake Taupo on the North Island of New Zealand is another world-famous trout destination, particularly the Tongariro River near Turangi. Also in the North Island is the destination of Hawkes Bay where there is the Tuki Tuki River with plenty of big rainbows and solid Browns to tangle with.This is a wild fishery . The Mohaka and the Ruakituri are renowned for the quality of scenery and fish.There are other rivers and lakes in the region in a country that really is clean and green.

Australia also has many fly fishing destinations, especially in the South-Eastern states of Tasmania, Victoria and New South Wales. The central highland region of Tasmania has built a reputation for exceptional lake fly fishing.


 * Salt-water fly fishing has also rapidly expanded in popularity, especially along the Gulf Coast and the Florida Keys for such species as bonefish, tarpon, redfish, and permit, and along the mid-Atlantic and Northeast coasts for bluefish and striped bass. The Bahamas and Belize also provide outstanding opportunities for salt-water fly angling.  Christmas Island in the Pacific is famous for bonefish, and various parts of coastal Australia offer a wide variety of saltwater fly fishing action.


 * In recent years, more exotic locations for reaching native populations of species have become popularized such as Mongolia ( for the largest Salmonid species in the world, the taimen), and the Kamchatka Peninsula in Russia, believed to be the site of one of the largest salmon runs in the world.


 * More and more fishermen are also discovering non-traditional fly rod targets like catfish and carp. The Red River around Lockport, Manitoba is a great place for both these species.


 * In Castel di Sangro (Italy) there's the International Museum of the fly fishing Stanislao Kuckiewicz.


 * In my a view a very good move. Apart from being somewhat subjective, the potential scope is enormous. I would encourage those of us who want to write about the fishing at a particular location, include the information on the article page for the body of water.  That is what I have done for my favorite fly fishing locations.

--Mike Cline 22:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Good. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 22:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have created a Category named 'Fly Fishing Waters' to be included on articles on specific bodies of water--Seas, Lakes, Rivers, etc--that contain references to Fly Fishing.  By including this category in the water body articles, a good list of fly fishing location will eventually be compiled. I would encourage contributors to add fly fishing content to their favorite water body articles and include this category.

--Mike Cline 15:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this an elegant solution. Good job, Mike! &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 16:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Potential Conflict of Interest Mike Cline
In the past I have sold flies and fly rods that I have built to friends and occasionally on Ebay. I don't make my living from Fly Fishing. Please evaluate any contributions I make to this article for NPOV in light of the above.--Mike Cline 10:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Re Chosing a Rod Length
To me this seems very opinionated and is not supported by any references. When I saw this topic added, I expected to see a survey of different rod lengths and types, yet it turned out to be apparently one person's view about how to chose a rod. For example:

1: pick the longest length rod you can get away with. Not only is this vague, it simply doesn't reflect well referenced concensus in the world of fly fishing. In fact, I doubt if there is any consensus on this topic.

I would suggest if this section is too be retained, it first is properly referenced and that most if not all differing views on "Chosing a Rod Length" are included and attributed to their proponents.

--Mike Cline 16:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, rod length/type depends on the context of the fishing conditions. The external link recently added by someone and removed by another for not apparently adhering to External links(http://www.mytroutfishingtips.com/rodtips.htm) has some information on the topic (not that I am saying it is in any way definitive). --Zven 20:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

River fishing
The topics of drift and mending the line are not covered for Dry fishing and nymphing. Without good drift it is less likely to catch trout --Zven 21:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Really should maintain Separate Notes and References sections
See WP:Citing sources see relevant guidelines below

Maintaining a separate "References" section in addition to "Notes" It can be helpful when footnotes are used that a separate "References" section also be maintained, in which the sources that were used are listed in alphabetical order. With articles that have lots of footnotes, it can become hard to see after a while exactly which sources have been used, particularly when the footnotes also contain explanatory text. A References section, which lists citations in alphabetical order, helps readers to see at a glance the quality of the references used.

--Mike Cline 12:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Added class and importance rating
This isn't just unilateral action - Please feel free to discuss and change the class and importance ratings. We've got to start somewhere, though, and I'm also testing the classes of Importance since they were just added to the template.  Laughing Vulcan  Laugh With Me /  Logical Entries 04:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Corrected a template error.  Laughing Vulcan  Laugh With Me /  Logical Entries 05:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Fishing Assessment Drive
Added assessment template. Also pulled current rating and importance tags, only because I added them (and accidentally made this a GA article when it was no such thing.) Add: Completed assessment. 02:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent Additions by 68.186.107.101
I posted the following comment on the talk page for the above.

''===Additions To Fly Fishing Article=== Your recent additions to the Fly Fishing article are welcome. I have some concern that they were copied verbatim from some other text, but I may be wrong. I would encourage you to provide well cited references for most if not all that you have added. Having well referenced material makes the article far most useful to the reader as well as educational for those of us who actively contribute to the article.--Mike Cline 18:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)''

After reading the new material several times, I am seriously concerned that it was copied directly from another, not so accurate source. There is an NPOV issue with some of it.

--Mike Cline 18:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Mike... What I wrote was done spontaneously on line and is largely based on my love of dry fly fishing in Southern Oregon.[edited 7-7-07] Jeff —Preceding unsigned comment added by OregonStreams (talk • contribs)


 * Mike


 * As for NPOV, I added a reference. Hope this helps.


 * "PVDF or fluorocarbon material is almost completely stable in UV light and never loses its strength...however; if you do use PVDF, make sure you recover any tippets or leaders you lose in trees or in snags if you can reach them.. Because PVDF never breaks down, this trash will stay in the environment for many years if you leave it on the river." pp 257

Rosenbauer, Tom (2007). The Orvis Fly Fishing Guide. Connecticut: The Lyons Press. ISBN 978-1-59228-818-2. -Jeff —Preceding unsigned comment added by OregonStreams (talk • contribs)


 * Jeff, Thanks for the update. There is always concern when volumes of information is added that is essentially un-referenced, especially from an IP address and not a registered user.  Your writing skills show, and that is appreciated.  But remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a journal, newspaper or personal memoir.  Therefore content should be written in such a manner that it explains things without bias or opinion WP:NPOV and is verifiable WP:Verify.  The best way to achieve that is by citing reliable sources WP:RELY.  Additionally, whenever an article deals with such a broad topic as fly fishing, care must be taken to keep the content at a level that makes sense to the broadness of the topic.  For example, your How to section isn't really about how to fly fish, it is mostly about your thoughts on trout fishing and equipment as it does not address anything about warm water, inshore or offshore techniques.  These differ significantly from dry fly fishing for trout and should be included while reducing the volume of words by at least a third (IMHO). I encourage you to continue to contribute to this and other fly fishing related articles.  With your experience, you will have a lot to contribute.  I note that you already have a user name OregonStreams and would encourage you to use your username (instead of an anonymous IP address) when making contributions as well as signing your posts to discussion page using the --~ at the end of your posts.
 * I would also encourage to join the WP:Fishing project to stay aligned with all us trying to improve Wikipedia coverage of fishing.--Mike Cline 12:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The Fly fishing Section
The "Famous Names in Fly Fishing" section, in my opinion, has become a problem. For starters, "famous" is a blatantly POV term and there is no way to measure who is and who is not "famous". Consequently, the section, by its very existence, becomes a magnet for all sorts of cruft and joke edits. Now, it's true that some of those names in there, such as Lee Wulff, are truly greats in anyone's estimation. But, beyond that, it's exceedingly difficult to agree, I'd suggest, on who does or does not belong. I've just now pulled the section since I don't really think it adds anything of critical value to the article. I've archived it here in case anyone disagrees or in case someone can come up with a way to keep the section relevant and tidy. I'd toyed with the idea of only allowing names in the section for people who have their own article. That's potentially a workable solution, I think, but I'll leave it stripped for a while to allow people the chance to see the article without the problematic section so they can get an idea as to whether the section is, in fact, needed. &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 19:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC) I agree on the Point of whomesoever has an article written on wikipedia, lets, but some of these names you've mentioned are definitely provable as far as notariety, I say launch them, and let the community do the research if they have an issue.Loganis (talk) 23:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Famous Names In Fly Fishing
 * Individual fame or notoriety in Fly Fishing comes in many forms. Some famous fly fishermen are consummate technicians and students of the sport.  Others are great historians, writers and story tellers.  Many are innovators, bringing new techniques, fly patterns, materials and equipment to the sport.  And many are pioneers of conservation and preservation of the environment so that the quarry of the sport--fish--have healthy and quality places to live.


 * Great Fly Fishing Technicians
 * Lee Wulff - Pioneer of modern fly fishing, innovator, author, writer, pilot. Wulff is responsible for the modern fly reel, the fly fishing vest. He created the venerated "Royal Wulff" dry fly still considered to be a very effective fly.


 * Joan Wulff - Championship Caster, Runs the premier Wulff School of Fly Fishing in Lew Beach, N.Y., Author of "Fly Casting Techniques". Married (now widowed) to Lee Wulff.


 * Vincent C. Marinaro - Wrote one of the most important angling books of the 20th Century A Modern Dry Fly Code and revolutionized American trout fishing with his experiences on the Pennsylvannia spring creeks in the 1940s and 50s.


 * Preston J. Jennings - Was probably the first American Fly Fishing writer to tie the entomology of trout stream insects to the artificial flies and how to fish them in his 1935 seminal work: A Book of Trout Flies.


 * G.E.M. Skues


 * Brian Clarke & John Goddard


 * befuddled - He is the Walrus. Goo Goo G'Job.


 * Writers and Story Tellers
 * John Gierach - The consummate fly fishing writer of the 1990s and the early 21st Century. Author of numerous anecdotal and technical books on fly fishing.


 * Arnold Gingrich - Founding editor of Esquire Magazine, Gingrich's "The Fishing In Print" (1974) is likely the most comprehensive review of angling literature ever written up to its time. Gingrich also authored The Joys of Trout (1973) and The Well-Tempered Angler (1965)


 * Sheridan Anderson - Author/illustrator of The Curtis Creek Manifesto


 * Norman Maclean - Author of the novella A River Runs Through It, which was made into a film


 * Russell Chatham- Author of The Angler's Coast, which describes fly fishing the coastal rivers of California and Oregon in the 1950s and later. Showed Tom McGuane how to double haul and cast 90+ feet with a hangover


 * Tom Bie- Editor and Publisher of the Drake, which is published yearly despite Tom's reputedly self admitted inability to empty an email inbox. Issues are renowned for arriving sometme in the year they are published. Tom favors the Bao Mah Necklace and rumor has it that his lab Trask is responsible for most content. Known also for his fondness of pie.


 * The Innovators
 * Gary Loomis - Founder of G. Loomis Rods, one of the early pioneers of graphite rod technology. Most rods are in the $trustfund price point.


 * Bob Clouser - Owner of Clouser Flyfishing in Middletown, PA, writer, guide and creator of the Clouser Deep Minnow genre of streamers that are used extensively in cold, warm, fresh and saltwater fisheries.


 * Brian O'Keefe - Widely known as the best salt water fly fisherman in history.


 * Stanley E. Bogdan - Creator of the Bogdan fly-fishing reel, widely considered the premier reel in the industry.


 * Carrie Stevens - Creator of the 150 streamer fly patterns including her famous "Grey Ghost" pattern. Carrie Stevens did her work at Upper Dam in Rangeley, Maine, from the 1920s to the 1950s


 * Bernard "Lefty Korea" Kreh - Creator of the "Lefty's Deceiver" style of streamer, renowned casting instructor and author, popularized a more open stanced side armed style of casting commonly used by many salt water fly fishermen. Also former outdoors editor of the Baltimore Herald.  Put name on sub par offshore manufactured flyrods and spinning gear.


 * Gary Bulla - Renowned guide and teacher of saltwater fly fishing and California fly fishing in the surf. Pioneered salt water and kayak fishing expeditions to Baja California, Mexico.


 * Conservationists
 * Dan Bailey - Owner of Dan Bailey's Fly Shop in Livingston, Montana is often credited with saving the Yellowstone River in Paradise Valley from being dammed in the 1970s.


 * Franklin "Doc" Oliverio - Is a well known fly fisherman, fly tyer, fly fishing instructor, conservationist, and guide. He was the original owner of Evergreen Fly Fishing Company in Clarksburg, WV.  Doc was one of the first proponents to saving the headwaters of the Shavers Fork of the Cheat River in central West Virginia.  Also, he is the inventor of several well known fly patterns, including the Evergreen Green Drake and Evergreen Coffin Fly.


 * Smithhammer- known for his Congressional Whitefish Conservation Act as well as making Nemo look tall.


 * Fictional
 * J. R. Hartley - author of the fictional Fly Fishing in a very popular Yellow Pages advert.


 * James Castwell - aka "Castlikeabiatch" A fictional character, reputedly an ambidextrous fly caster who could amaze groups with his unbelievable casting prowess. Not known for actually ever catching much but inspired many to higher levels of fly casting ability. Real identity clouded. Married to the Crypt Keeper.


 * Gus Orviston- A fictional character of David James Duncan in The River Why, who comes of age fly fishing in Oregon.

Waterlogged Flies
I noticed the addition of the word "waterlogged" to the dry fly section about resuscitating dry flies after catching a fish. Personally, I think there is a big difference between resuscitating a waterlogged fly and resuscitating a dry fly after catching a fish. The latter is much harder to get to float again and most attribute this to "oils" in the fish's mouth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OregonStreams (talk • contribs) 04:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I took out the use of the word "water-logged". To be frank, I'm not sure why this is contentious since, as far as I'm aware, water-logged just means that it's wet and won't float. Obviously it's wet or else false casting or taking it off and letting it dry wouldn't "dry" it, would it? Anyway, whatever the reason, I've changed it so it should be acceptable, now. As far as "most attribut[ing]" it to oils in the mouth, this just has to be wrong. Oils, by definition, are hydrophobes. They would enhance the fly's ability to float, not hamper it. Even a fish's mucous coat is hydrophobic as you can tell when you try to rinse your hand in the water, it usually requires a bit of rubbing with the other hand to get the mucous off -- it's clearly hydrophobic, too. (If you think of the way in which the mucous coat functions and its purpose, it becomes apparent that it need be hydrophobic, anyway.) As far as I can tell, the only reason a fly is harder to re-float after landing a fish is because it's crushed and the water is able to fully penetrate the fly. If you look at the way a fly floats, a lot of the flotation is in the physical structure of the fly &mdash; fine hairs and bristles a) support the fly in the surface film meaning that the water's surface tension supports the fly and b) trap air between them making the fly less dense. Proof of this is that most every dry fly is actually more dense than water, this is why the water-logged (or oily or mucous-coated or whatever) fly sinks to begin with. So, unlike wood or kapok or styrofoam or anything that is inherently less dense than water, a fly floats because of its structure. When a fish is hooked, the fly's structure is impaired. Drying the fly permits it to "puff up" again, to the point where it will once again float. That's also why a fly that's caught a lot of fish, at some point will not float no matter what you do to it. It's been crushed too many times and, even when dry, is no longer structurally sound. At least that's my impression of it all.


 * Oh, BTW, as you've probably noticed, I've begun systematically going though the article mainly to wikify it but also to streamline the text and to remove some small issues of redundancy. To be frank, the whole "How to" section is giving me dyspepsia because, by definition, it's antithetical to Wikipedia's purpose (WP:NOT). The other thing that I've noticed is that there's a lot of focus on trout when the text could easily be made more generic and made to apply to other species, as well. For example, what is there in the "Dry fly trout fishing" section or in the "Nymphing for trout" section that doesn't apply to dry fly fishing or nymphing for any other species like chub, bream, smallmouth bass, whatever? I'm thinking about this as I pass over the text, trying, where possible, to use generic examples and terminology. In the end, I think the article sections could be retitled and slightly re-arranged to make the whole thing less salmonid-driven and of broader appeal to more anglers who may target species other than trout. Cheers! &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 15:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dave... I appreciate your hard work. I was wondering who was adding all the links! Methinks the scientific term is fish slime :) Whatever it is, it is not good for a dry fly! I personally find it difficult to write a useful generic how to as I am not an "expert" in fly fishing for multiple species of fish. I tend to write only what I know well. Others may not have this inhibition. OregonStreams 00:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Fully re-worked
I've just completed a complete re-working of the article. Most of what I've done is wikification but I've also undertaken quite a number of structural and stylistic changes. As with any such major revision, there are almost certainly errors of spelling, style and diction that a good copyeditor could fix in relatively short order. Have at 'er, friends! Cheers! &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 03:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Dave... Unfortunately, I just don't agree with some of the changes from a factual point of view. For instance, there are many types of boots that can be worn with stockingfoot waders, some have felt bottoms, some have cleats. IMHO it is not accurate to say that stockingfoot waders are designed to be used with felt soled boots. They are designed to be used with wading boots, which may or may not have felt bottoms. In fact, some have interchangeable bottoms. Also, I have never seen the use of the term chest high boots, at least not in North America. Chest high waders is self describing and accurate. It is not, IMHO, accurate to say that one stays low and "as far away from the bank as possible" when fishing upstream. I often move upstream low and with stealth, in the stream, hiding behind rocks and branches near the bank, not "far from the bank". I often cast side arm while in the stream, around obstructions, near the bank, where I cannot be seen. These changes are far more than stylistic changes. They change the meaning of the text and, IMHO, not always for the better. OregonStreams 05:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's all good. I reckon if there's something in there that you don't like, well then by golly, you should change it. &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 13:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Re-Writes Proposed
Dave, Oregonstreams -- Although I've contributed a bit to this article in the past, I've stopped because it has evolved into something that clearly isn't an encyclopedic article that describes Fly Fishing, but has turned into an article largely about how to Fly Fish for trout. Although historically, fly fishing for trout may have been the predominate target, that is clearly no longer the case. Fly fishing for any particular species or genere of species is distinctly different from fly fishing in general. Too much of this article is biased toward methodology and technique related to trout while iqnoring dozens of other flying fishing targets, techniques, issues, etc. Even the information directly related to fly fishing for trout is highly regionally biased and doesn't reflect many methods, techniques, attitudes and such used in different parts of the US or Europe. I have two suggestions for you all to consider. 1) Dave-re-write the Fly Fishing article in good wikipedia style to reflect a generic, global description of fly fishing that reflects accuracy for all genere of fly fishing targets and techniques. 2) Oregonstreams-create a separate article: Fly fishing for trout in good wikipedia style that reflects a generic, global description of fly fishing for the trout target genere. Avoid the how-to stuff all together, since it is faught with the high-probability that someone will accurately disagree with a particular how-to technique. I will happily lend my support to both re-writes and probably have a reference in my library to support any facts or positions included in either article.--Mike Cline 12:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I sort of like this idea. To be frank, I came within a whisker of yanking out the "How to" stuff at least a dozen times while working in there. It really doesn't belong in this article, for sure. It may be more appropriate for Wikibooks or something like that. I'm certainly willing to bring this article to the sort of standard you describe but, of course, only as time will allow me to do so. &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 13:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Dave--As always once I start thinking--here's a potential taxonomy of a Fly Fishing article that I think would meet the desired objective.

==Fly Fishing==

Added Howto and Generalize Templates to Methods Section
This article and this section in particular needs work to remove ALL the species specific stuff, especially the How To stuff. Although all the Trout stuff is regionally valid somewhere, it is but a small part of the sport of fly fishing, ie. fly fishing and trout fishing are not synonomyous. This article would lead one to believe they are.--Mike Cline (talk) 19:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The Wooly Bugger Streamer
The beauty of fly fishing is that you never have to buy bait; you can make it from what you may find in the natural environment. These instructions are for anyone who is interested in the sport of fly fishing and the art of fly-tying. They will give a step-by-step account of how to tie a Wooly Bugger Streamer used to catch trout.

1.	Set up your fly-tying vice and clamp securely on a table with the vice in front of your left arm (if you are right handed). If you are left-handed, set up your vice in front of your right arm.

2.	Select proper hook and secure it onto your vice with the hook in the vice (sharp end) and the eye of the hook sticking out at a 90 degree angle with the table.

3.	Attach black thread 25% behind eye of hook and wind back to bend of hook. 4.	Select marabou tail fibers – the tail length must equal length of hook snank, or length of hook from behind the eye to the bend of the hook.

5.	Attach marabou tail fibers with a “pinch tie” using thread. 6.	 Select hackle (a feather) 2X the gap of the hook. 7.	Attach the hackle to the hook by its tip with the dull side towards the hook using a pinch tie. 8.	Wrap any additional tail that may be on your hook with your thread going from hook end to eye and wrapping back down to the hook end.

9.	Pinch tie a piece of black yarn to the tail end of your hook where your tail is using your thread.

10.	Wrap the black yarn tightly up the body of the hook towards the eye to smooth over the body of hook.

11.	Spirally wrap the hackle up the entire body of hook, leaving approximately 1-2cm for a head by the eye of the hook. 12.	Make a head on your hook by wrapping thread towards the eye of the hook so that no silver hook is showing.

13.	Make two wraps of thread around a small straw in order to knot your fly.

14.	Bring the straw to the eye of hook and guide the wraps onto the head of the hook.

15.	Go to a local creek and test out your fly!

The section was deleted on several counts: 1) First and foremost, it is a How To list of information, uncited, and more appropriate to Wikibooks or such, not an encyclopedic article on fly fishing. 2) There is already an article entitled: Woolly Bugger which covers the general nature of this fly. 3) The section was completely un-sourced and probably just copied from someone's set of tying instructions. (Even if it was sourced, it is How To information, inappropriate for the article.) Where would it end--do we include tying instructions for every known artificial fly.

Let's keep this article encyclopedic!

--Mike Cline (talk) 14:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal To Turn Fly Fishing into A Summary Article
The current nature of Fly Fishing is so extensive and complex that a single article cannot do it justice. This is evident by much of the very specialized content the article contains now, while there is a complete lack of coverage on many other relevant fly fishing topics.

Wikipedia Summary Style: WP:SS provides a useful way to deal with these broad and complex subjects. In a way the process has already started with the section on the Artificial fly and I am personnally working in a History of Fly fishing article. If others agree and can jump in, much of the current content on Fly fishing for trout and well as equipment can be spiit out into separate articles and summarized in this article. With the addition of Geronimo20's navigation templates, turning the fly fishing article into a Summary article seems like the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be accomplished overnight, but if there is concensus, we can proceed to pursue transition to a Summary style article.--Mike Cline (talk) 14:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a discussion of this idea on the Fishing Project Proposals page. Please provide your input there.  Thanks--Mike Cline (talk) 18:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Flyfishingcommunity.com External Link Issue
I recently noted this commented bit of text on the fly fishing main page.

The examination of the link to www.flyfishingcommunity.com indicated that it violates a number of guidelines in WP:ELNO, namely the following:


 * 1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. (There is nothing unique about this site compared to dozens of other fly fishing related social networking sites)
 * 2. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content. (You must register to access much of the content in this site)
 * 3. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace or Fan sites), discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups) or USENET. (This is clearly a social networking site for fly fisherman, one of dozens I know of)
 * 4. Lists of links to manufacturers, suppliers or customers. (Although one-level down, this site lists links to all sorts of commercial suppliers, fly shops, etc.)

Its inclusion as a external link is inappropriate and does not contribute to the betterment of the fly fishing article.--Mike Cline (talk) 18:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Fly fishing tackle article created and fly fishing article content split out
In a continuing effort to improve the readibility of the fly fishing article by transitioning it to Summary Style, I have created an article: Fly fishing tackle. Content relative to tackle in the fly fishing article has been moved in mass to that article. The Fly fishing tackle article needs additional content, improvement and better sourcing which should be easier now that it has its own article.--Mike Cline (talk) 15:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Sport fly fishing
It seems odd that there is no mention in this article of: Both are redlinks at time of writing. --Mais oui! (talk) 09:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC) --Jerzy•t 22:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * FIPS-Mouche, Fédération Internationale de Pêche Sportive Mouche (International Federation of Sport Fly Fishing)
 * World Fly Fishing Championships
 * Both are probably deserving of articles--what are you waiting for?--Mike Cline (talk) 15:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mike, what are you waiting for? (I don't have even any idea that they are deserving!) You can re-add FIPS-Mouche to FIPS after your write the article-stub, based on whatever you know that convinces you it's deserving.

Removed images from text.
I removed four small images of flies that were imbedded in the text itself because this is not good style.

RoyalWulff.jpg

beadharesear.jpg

beadedpheasanttail.jpg

woolybugger.jpg

I have put them here so they don't get lost and deleted (just in case someone wants to use them) Mozzie (talk) 11:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed Salmon Fly paragraph from Artificial Flies Section
The art of the salmon fly dresser reached its height in the Victorian era, when the earlier rather drab Scottish fly patterns of William Scrope, e.g. Meg in her Braws and Kinmont Willie, were supplanted by a flood of highly complex and exotic creations (classic salmon flies such as Jock Scott, Silver Doctor, Dusty Miller, Mar Lodge). The popularity of these gaudy fully dressed patterns continued into the twentieth century when they were gradually modified and supplemented by simpler designs. First the low water style of fly dressing was applied to earlier patterns, as seen in flies such as the Logie, Jeannie and Blue Charm, popularised by A.H.E. Wood of Cainton on the River Dee. Then, particularly from the 1950's, began the development of the modern hairwing salmon fly, e.g. Hairy Mary, Garry, Stoat's Tail and Munro's Killer, which we know so well today. Recent years have seen wide ranging developments in salmon fly design. Today's salmon fly fisherman has a great many weapons in his armoury, ranging from flies dressed on simple single, double or treble hooks, short or long in the shank, barbed or barbless; snake flies and needle flies; coneheads, bottle tubes and turbo discs. The tube fly has long been a favourite of many fly tyers, now readily available in a variety of materials, such as plastic, aluminium, copper, brass and stainless steel, allowing flytyers to make tube flies in a useful range of lengths and weights to suit most river conditions. Another great advantage of the tube fly is its durability, as the hook, whether single, double or treble, can be easily replaced when damaged. 1) The above information is unsourced. No doubt it is factual, but no cites were given. 2) The Fly Fishing article is gravitating toward a Summary Style article and this is substantially too much detail for the Artificial fly section. It might be appropriate for the Artificial fly article or Fly tying article. More appropriately, it should be included in a new article on the Salmon Fly. --Mike Cline (talk) 13:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Pano image needs caption
Hi, I'm just following up with the pano image. Regarding this edit, the image is fine. I was simply responding to a request about the formatting of the image elsewhere (Graphics Lab talk page I believe). But I wanted to point out that, in accordance with Manual_of_Style, the image should have a caption to explain what is going on and what in the image is important. Thanks! – Kerαu noςco pia ◁ gala xies 05:48, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Saltwater flyfishing sources
Responding to a merge tag on Saltwater fly fishing, I noticed that there was no content to merge except for a single image. However, the article had what looks like a promising reference list, so I've brought them here in case they are of value:


 * Herd, Andrew. A Fly Fishing History. http://www.flyfishinghistory.com/salt_water_fly_fishing.htm
 * Pfeiffer, Boyd. Fly Fishing Saltwater Basics. Stackpole Books: Harrisburg PA (1999)
 * Rosenbauer, Tom (2007). The Orvis Fly Fishing Guide. Connecticut: The Lyons Press. ISBN 978-1-59228-818-2.
 * Samson, Jack. Saltwater Fly Fishing. Stackpole Books: Harrisburg PA (1991).
 * Uptown Angler. For More Information on Saltwater Fly Fishing

Bilby (talk) 22:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 April 2013
In the Fly fishing entry; under the heading "Fish species" trout and salmon are mentioned and then grayling are listed separately, lumped in with "coarse" fish, when actually they are a member of the trout family. 172.219.51.180 (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

172.219.51.180 (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC) ✅ ```Buster Seven   Talk  01:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)