Talk:Flying Tigers/Archive 4

China Air Task Force
I just noticed that CATF redirects to this page. That's quite wrong--the AVG was never part of the CATF, or vice versa. Better there be a CATF disambiguation page, showing links to AVG, Tigers, and 14th AF. But how does one edit a redirect? Can someone instruct me? Thanks! AVGbuff (talk) 10:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC) Later: okay, I found the information in the Wiki Help and have created the CATF page and done the redirects. I hope others here will add to the new page, which is close to being a stub. AVGbuff (talk) 18:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

archiving
This Talk page was getting so long as to be difficult to use. I have archived several of the older and less pertinent discussions. I think it would also be useful to archive the discussion about Secret Executive Order. It really doesn't come to any conclusion or add much to our understanding of the AVG, and it makes the Talk page tediously long. We could leave the heading where it is, with the Archive tag beneath it. Or simply archive it as /Archive 2. Are there any objections or suggestions? AVGbuff (talk) 19:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * We can archive it with a descriptive title about its subject, turning it into a topical archive much like has been done at Talk:World War II. Binksternet (talk) 19:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Archiving is done. Binksternet (talk) 23:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, well done. AVGbuff (talk) 14:06, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Essential to the airlift into western China?
I'm a little confused. I thought the main article would have information on the role that the Flying Tigers had with an airlift of supplies over the Himalaya mountains but I couldn't find any detailed information on the airlift, or transport, of materials. Did the Flying Tigers have anything to do with "flying over the hump" or was that some other aircraft division? 216.99.201.167 (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The Flying Tigers defended the airfields. Some Flying Tiger pilots led ferry flights of new fighters for China. Graeme374 (talk) 08:27, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

George W. Shoenfelt flew the DC-3 missions supplying the Chinese Red Army in their retreat over the Himalayas, the Hump, from the Japanese.

I'm a little confused
The main article could be improved if it were pointed out whether or not the Flying Tigers had anything to do with the airlift over the Himalaya mountains into the westernmost parts of China. 216.99.201.167 (talk) 21:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right. The article has only a single mention of The Hump, in relation to one fighter pilot. It could easily benefit from more explanation about the mission and the results. Binksternet (talk) 23:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The AVG had little or nothing to do with the Hump airlift, which was the province of CNAC and the US Army's Ferry Command. The article is already past the limit suggested by Wiki, and it appears to be a magnet for irrelevant additions, most recently a general of the Chinese Air Force. AVGbuff (talk) 10:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Wrong and wrong. The Hump supplied the AVG fighters and more, and the article doesn't break 40k, meaning that it doesn't need to be prevented from taking on more information, if valid. There's room for a brief discussion of supply lines. Binksternet (talk) 11:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The first Ferry Command flight over the Hump was 29 April 1942 and was mostly for the CAF, not the AVG. Some stuff did come in in May-June. I understood the question to have been asked by someone under the impression that the AVGs were also the Hump fliers. No. Individual AVGs ferried their own aircraft from India, but they were not ferry pilots. That was done exclusively by civilian CNAC pilots and (from 29 April) US Army pilots. Article size suggests to me that 32K is the upper limit for most articles. I would be willing to trim the combat history to make room for the Hump if the consensus is for it, though it seems a bit silly to me. Anyone else? AVGbuff (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The actual limit is between 30 and 50k, as the old limit of 32k was based on limits imposed by individual browsers some of which that are now rarely used, technical considerations have allowed this once hard and fast rule to be softened and many articles now exist which are over 32 KB of total text size. However, in dealing with the first request, there was an inherent connection in the CBI with "the Hump" as it was a primary means of supply for much of the theatre although as you have accurately noted, it was not a major consideration for the success of the AVG. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC).


 * Thanks, I'll go to the article on The Hump and read up on it there. I'm mostly curious about the total tonnage of supplies delivered from India to China in WWII.  Also, how many planes failed to make it over the Himalaya mountains.    216.99.219.134 (talk) 02:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmm.  Maybe I should ask the question here.  -I assume that the Flying Tigers can refer to the planes as well as the pilots that flew them?   When the Flying Tigers made trips over the Hump, how many of their planes were lost in WWII?  How much tonnage did that represent?  Wouldn't heavier planes have been more likely to be lost?   Am I safe to assume that the planes were more useful for their role in engaging enemy aircraft (whether defensively or not) than in transporting supplies?   The article you suggested had pictures of several different transport planes, few of which had their noses painted with shark teeth, like those generally associated with the Flying Tigers.   216.99.198.161 (talk) 20:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As indicated earlier, do not confuse the AVG (Flying Tigers) fighter operations that took place in China and Burma with the cargo being delivered over the Himalayas in support of the Allied efforts in the theatre. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 20:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC).

There are multiple ideas here. The original Flying Tigers were the pilots of the American Volunteer Group of the Chinese Air Force; that's the outfit under discussion in this article. As stated in the article, they served from December 1941 to July 1942. Their planes were Curtiss P-40s (Tomahawks, in the British nomenclature, followed by P-40Es in the spring of 1942); the AVGs generally referred to them as "sharks" for their nose art. Some of the AVGs did ferry replacement fighter aircraft over the Hump from India, but they never piloted cargo aircraft during their AVG service. The Ferry Command, as noted, started operations at the end of April 1942 and was staffed entirely by USAAF personnel. A Chinese airline, CNAC, also flew this route, and after July 1942 a number of former AVG pilots joined this airline and did fly the Hump. Some also joined the USAAF fighter group that replaced the AVG, and which also used the Flying Tiger name. So yes--plenty of room for confusion! I hope I haven't made it worse. Cubdriver (talk) 23:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I added a link to the article on The Hump route at the top of the page with the other cross-references. I'll look at the linked article to see if any mention is or should be made to the AVG. AVGbuff (talk) 14:51, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Madam Chiang Kai-sak
Soong May Ling(Madam Chiang) played a big part in the coming to China of the Flying Tigers, and hence the ROC airforce, and she gave a very important speech in the US congress. It can be said that she was personally responsible in the setting up of Flying Tigers and the ROC airforce. Arilang   talk  20:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Addresses to the House of Respresentatives and to the Senate by Soong Mai Ling

Madam Chiang and the flying Tigers
"During the war with the Japanese, Madame Chiang pushed her husband to build up the Nationalist air force, and helped hire Claire Chennault, who commanded a mercenary force of pilots that came to be known as the Flying Tigers."

Madame Chiang Kai-shek, a Power in Husband's China and Abroad, Dies at 105 By SETH FAISON

Madame Chiang's role during the war
"Chennault was called to Chungking, China, on March 29, 1942, for a conference to decide the fate of the AVG. Present at the conference were Chiang Kai-shek; his wife, Madame Chiang; Lt. Gen. Joseph W. Stilwell, commander of U.S. forces in China; and Bissell, who had arrived in early March." China Air Task Force: Replaced the American Volunteer Group  Arilang   talk  21:23, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Madame Chiang hired Claire Chennault
"In April, 1937, Claire L. Chennault, then a captain in the United States Army Air Corps, retired from active duty and accepted an offer form Madame Chiang Kai-shek for a three month mission to China to make a confidential survey of the Chinese Air Force. At that time China and Japan were on the verge of war and the fledgling Chinese Air Force was beset by internal problems and torn between American and Italian influence.  Madame Chiang Kai-shek took over leadership of the Aeronautical Commission in order to reorganize the Chinese Air Force.  This was the beginning of Chennault's stay in China which did not terminate until 1945 at the close of World War II.  Chennault's combat and other experiences between 1937 and 1941 in China are another story, but it was these experiences together with the knowledge he attained of combat tactics and the operations of Japanese Air Force over China that laid the ground work for the organization of the American Volunteer Group in 1941."

The Flying Tigers American Volunteer Group - Chinese Air Force A BRIEF HISTORY WITH RECOLLECTIONS AND COMMENTS BY GENERAL CLAIRE LEE CHENNAULT


 * All of the above statements with verifiable supporting documents can be incorporated into the article. It is Wikipedia after all and there is no editorial board to decide on these issues. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 21:37, 12 April 2009 (UTC).


 * The recent adds with respect to Chennault and 'Madam' (!) Chiang have little or nothing to do with the AVG, which was recruited and deployed in 1941, three-four years after the events in question. Better they be moved to the Chennault biographical article. (Wiki may be no editorial board, but it does or ought to have a sense of history!) AVGbuff (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Madam Chiang played a big part in the ROC anti-Japanese war:


 * Addresses to the House of Respresentatives and to the Senate by Soong Mai Ling
 * She acted as a interpreter between Chiang Kai-shek and the outside world.
 * She was the major player in the setting up of ROC Air Force, as well as the Flying Tigers, and was nearly being appointed as the Minister of War, it is wrong to say "have little or nothing to do with the AVG"
 * Without Madam Chiang, definitly there would not be any AVG as it was. Arilang   talk  02:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Air raid warning system
"Describing the Chinese air-raid warning net, Chennault states:

"The Chinese air-raid warning system was a vast spidernet of people, radios, telephones, and telegraph lines that covered all of Free China accessible to enemy aircraft. In addition to continuous intelligence of enemy attacks, the net served to locate and guide lost friendly planes, direct aid to friendly pilots who had crashed or bailed out, and helped guide our technical intelligence experts to wrecks of crashed enemy aircraft."

http://flyingtigersavg.22web.org/tiger1.htm

 Arilang   talk  21:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See earlier statement. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC).

59.105.23.2
An anonymous editor with the above IP address reverted a number of well-thought-out improvements, even to restoring an anachronistic photograph. It would be easier to maintain an authoritative article if 59.105.23.2 would discuss his or her concerns here first. Thanks! AVGbuff (talk) 21:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

2nd Avg, 3rd AVG
Cross-posted from the American Volunteer Group article: I had planned to create an article on the 2nd AVG bomber group, but am having second thoughts. Would it perhaps be better to recast this article (i.e. the AVG article) as having three headings, one for each AVG unit deployed or planned? The 1st AVG would of course be very brief and linked to the Flying Tigers article. The 2nd AVG section would be the longest, since this group was actually recruited and equipped, though aborted after 7 Dec 1941. The 3rd AVG section would again be short, since it was only planned, never recruited or equipped. Thoughts? AVGbuff (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See earlier response- other forum. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 20:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC).

'Madam' Chiang; the warning net
The additions with respect to Madame (as it was invariably spelled, to distinguish the lady from the other sort of madam) have little or nothing to do with the AVG, preceding its creation by four years. They ought to go in Chennault's biography, and indeed may already appear there.

The adds with respect to the CAF warning net are a bit more a propos but are badly written and misleading. If the original editor can't or won't fix them, I will be happy to. AVGbuff (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

@AVGbuff,you may have guessed that my English is so-so, please feel free to fix any errors I may have added. Sincere thanks. Arilang   talk  03:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Soong May-ling was the 'honorary commander' of the AVG. (Chiang Kai-shek was the commander.) That should be added. I think that the rest of the 'Madame' section ought to be deleted from the AVG article and added to the Chennault article, which says very little about his service in China before the AVG. AVGbuff (talk) 23:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, done. Anybody willing to smooth the Chennault article, please do! AVGbuff (talk) 18:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Logo
That's a pretty faggy logo. No surprise as I read on that it was created by Disney —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.151.129.50 (talk) 21:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Commemorative stamp
I was sorry to see it go; it did indeed add to the article (far more than the irritating Pop Culture trivia). I checked out the deletion discussion and it seems that stamps are generally deleted when shown in 'non-stamp articles' because they're copyrighted. Nobody raised the question of whether Republic of China (Taiwan) stamps are subject to copyright. Are they? If we can discover that they aren't, then the image can be restored on that basis. Evidently we can't get past the Wiki Censors otherwise. ('Information wants to be free' ... yeah, right!) AVGbuff (talk) 10:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

AVG members
I just created an article for Stormy Rottman, who was a briefing officer for the Flying Tigers during WWII, but I don't know if he's notable enough to warrant inclusion on the list of 'Notable AVG members' in this article. If someone would like to read the article about Rottman and see if he could be listed there also, I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks. Zephyrnthesky (talk) 00:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There was no Rottman in the American Volunteer Group, which is the subject of this article. Perhaps the 14th Air Force? I will read your article; thanks in advance. AVGbuff (talk) 11:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Flying Tigers legacy in song, other tributes
Recently a section was removed with the concern that the information was "dodgy" regardless of the inclusion of cites and reference sources. Before further revising of this section, a discourse should be attempted as to the authenticity of the original submission. On questions such as these, when an editor has supplied text resources, a WP:AGF is usually sufficient; was there a concern that the material was not verified properly? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 05:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC).
 * I initially deleted a portion pertaining to the Hungry Tiger restaurant chain. The portion had two sources, but on reading the sources, there was no mention of the Flying Tigers in either of them.  There was a mention of the Flying Tiger Freight Line, only to say "within a few months it was a rip-roaring success and the thankful owners, executives and pilots of the Flying Tigers freight airline, were ready to open more Hungry Tigers."  That wasn't a solid enough citation to support the assertion that "some of the Flying Tigers started a restaurant chain".  I found an LA Times article from August 13, 1985, that states, "Around 1962, Bob Prescott and Wayne Hoffman used to eat at an Italian restaurant on Ventura Boulevard in Sherman Oaks. The place wasn't doing too well, though, and, according to Hoffman, the owner kept borrowing money from Prescott--so much that Prescott ended up owning the place.  Thus Hungry Tiger was born. Prescott and Hoffman were president and chairman, respectively, of Flying Tiger air-freight line, which Prescott founded."  Looking at a roster of the Flying Tigers, I see a Robert W. Prescott.  I am amending the article to add the LA Times citation, and mention Robert Prescott (assuming the Bob Prescott of the Hungry Tiger is the same as Robert W. Prescott of the AVG).  Eastcote (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have read every AVG memoir and most of the AVG histories, and I have never seen a reference to Jimmy Jackson, 'radio personality', or to the supposed song. You can Google the title of the alleged Flying Tigers song, and you will get no return except this Wiki article and this discussion. Nor can I find a Google reference to songwriter Jimmy Jackson himself--let alone a Wiki article. You've been duped by a shameless bit of family self-promotion, and I don't understand why you keep restoring it. (Speaking here to Bzuk.) Eastcote was right to delete it, as I did on an earlier occasion. As for the Hungry Tiger, Eastcote is correct that Bob Prescott was a member of the AVG and later founded the Flying Tiger Line. AVGbuff (talk) 15:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now, I admit that I can be easily misled, but when an editor submits a reference source such as " "Jimmie Jackson.” The Daily Variety, Vol. 31, No. 9, March 18, 1941, p. 2." that has to be accepted as an WP:AGF submission, unless proved otherwise. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC).
 * I don't believe I deleted the portion pertaining to Jimmy Jackson. I initially deleted the Hungry Tiger info, but did a little research and added a better reference.  I Googled Jimmy Jackson, and he indeed was a "radio personality" back in the 1940s.  There are sufficient citations to let that portion of the article stand.  "Googled" references to him are sparse, but that seems to mean simply that he is a forgotten radio figure.  Try Googling Mickey Shorr and see what you get.  Nothing but stores selling car audio equipment.  No one under 50 remembers the stores' namesake, Mickey Shorr the "radio personality" of the 1950s.  Eastcote (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

So your argument is that because Mr Jackson was mentioned (obviously not in connection with the AVG, which in March 1941 did not exist) in Variety, and because a Mr Shorr has been forgotten, this bit of family legend ought to be included in a supposedly serious article about the AVE? Often I despair about Wiki as a hopeless case. This is one of those instances. You were conned, and worse, you are the ones perpetuating the con, since the original Jackson relative seems to have departed. There exist some twenty or thirty books about the AVG. Five or six are still in print. Please find a citation to Jimmie Jackson in any one of them. AVGbuff (talk) 15:42, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Now unless you have the article in question, and it does not support the statement given, the previous note by Eastcote indicates that Jimmy/Jimmie Jackson did indeed exist, and the inclusion of a reference source indicates that the submitter had a source in hand. I can accept a good-faith edit here, until proved wrong. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 00:18, 4 October 2009 (UTC).


 * Hey, I really don't have a dog in this fight. From what I can tell, the Variety reference from 1941 was to establish Mr. Jackson as a radio personality of the day, whether or not he has been forgotten and is considered non-notable in 2009.  The Vegan Aircaster reference was from 1942 and was to establish that he wrote a song about the Flying Tigers.  Like Bzuk, I generally assume good faith on the part of whoever adds references.  Now, having said that, references are cited to make Wikipedia's content verifiable.  Googling for the Vegan Aircaster nets nothing but this article, and 25 or so copies spawned by this article.  I find no other reference but this Wikipedia article to a publication named the Vegan Aircaster.  I realize Google is not a foolproof way to check out references, but if the content can't be verified, and considering there seems to be no independent verification of this song, it wouldn't break my heart if the bit about Jimmy Jackson was deleted. Eastcote (talk) 01:51, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Some billions of people have existed, but that doesn't merit their inclusion in an article about the AVG. Some hundreds of them--perhaps thousands--have written songs, poems, novels, short stories, and histories of the Flying Tigers, or have rendered them in drawings, paintings, and Action Hero figurines. If Jimmy Jackson is worth including, so are they. Shall we track them down and create a new article specifically devoted to them? AVGbuff (talk) 16:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Basically, you do not have consensus for the direction you have been advocating. Time to move on. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC).

I received this email today from the inter-library loan office at the local university library, responding to a search request from more than a month ago, quote:

A request you have placed:

Daily variety 31 9  MARCH 18   1941   2 Title: 'Jimmie Jackson' (?) Author: ANON?

TN: 338789 has been cancelled by the interlibrary loan staff for the following reason:

We have exhausted all possible sources.

No library is able to supply this item.

Close quote. So no research library in the United States can find a copy of the cited article. As for the Vegan Aircaster, no one can find evidence that it exists. I therefore will delete the bogus reference. AVGbuff (talk) 21:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * See Note about Jimmie Jackson and WP:OWN. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 04:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC).
 * Hmmm. Talk about name-dropping.  I don't think I'd use Mr. Sloane's website as an authoritative source for anything.  This guy is way too awesome.  He holds the key to the city of Monticello, Indiana, is an honorary Kentucky Colonel, and he wrote the best-seller Christian Counselor's Guide for Restoring Virginity''. Why, oh why, doesn't someone create a Wikiarticle for him, since he hasn't done it already.  Eastcote (talk) 05:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

James H. Howard
credited with 6 kills in AVG, why not on Ace list? --Flightsoffancy (talk) 15:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Mr Howard was credited with 2.33 air-to-air victories. The others were planes destroyed on the ground, traditionally not counted toward 'acedom'. I believe the list as shown includes only credited air-to-air vics. AVGbuff (talk) 15:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I came across this discussion about Jimmie Jackson. I have the copy of the article showing his having written the Flying Tigers fighting song Flying China Blues.” I also have Tiger reunion books wit pictures of Jimmie and many of the Tigers along with his name printed on the official page but there is no way (e-mail address)for me to scan and send them to this Wiki.. You may also wish to look him up on IMDb.com. Regards -JP J.P. Sloane — Preceding unsigned comment added by J.P. Sloane (talk • contribs) 19:31, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Day-o
I removed the "overclaim" statement on a) the unreliability of Japanese records (which also plagued JANAC) & b) on the fact AVG claims were (or were supposed to be) confirmed by Chinese finding the wreckage before credit (& the $500 bonus) was given. TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  22:34, 27 December 2009 (UTC) --left as invisible for now--->


 * Well, most AVG claims were made in Burma, where there were no Chinese to count the wrecks. Many were claimed shot down in the rain forest, behind enemy lines, over the Gulf of Martaban, etc etc. Indeed, much of that was true in China as well. AVGbuff (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What substantiation can you provide, "TREKphiler", of "the unreliability of Japanese records"? Daniel Ford's book is the most thoroughly researched material yet published on the matter, and he substantiates a figure of approximately 115 downed Japanese a/c as consistent with the Japanese records of their own losses.


 * With a cash bonus at stake for AVG pilots many of whose motivation for being there in the first place was financial, it shouldn't take much argumentation to see the lure of the incentive for AVG pilots to over-estimate downed-aircraft claims. Until better evidence is supplied, the article at hand needs to state figures consistent with the best published evidence, and for now that evidence lies in Daniel Ford's solid, thoroughly substantiated work. If you want to note the total of AVG's claims too, that's OK, but it needs to be identified as inconsistent with the best modern historical research.BLZebubba (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Please, Mr. Tallyman...
While it was corrected (& rightly) on the basis of the attack on Pearl falling on 8 Dec in China, I have another issue with "12 days after': do we count the day of the attack as one of them, or just the span between, in which case it's only 11 days...  Harry Belafonte   daylight come  04:22, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * 'After' is simply a matter of subtraction, as in tomorrow is the day after today (29 minus 28 = 1). 20 minus 8 is 12. No? AVGbuff (talk) 15:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm counting them differently...only I can't explain why I think there's a distinction between simple subtraction & the number counted: from 100 to 110 isn't 10, it's 11, including 100. Clearer?  Count von Count   Ricki, don't lose that number  18:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If you have walked 100 meters and your goal is 110 meters, then you have 10 meters more to go. If your have worked 100 days, then to work 110 days is to work 10 days longer. If your birthday is on December 8 and mine on December 20, then mine is 12 days later. (According to the logic of your first post on this issue, if the combat had happened on December 9, no days would have intervened between it and the Pearl Harbor attack, so it would be zero days later and the two combats necessarily would have fallen on the same day.) AVGbuff (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Armament
The section about the P-40 says they used a P-40B and that these fighters were delivered without the 30. cal guns in the wings. However, in the same section it says one of the P-40's advantages in China was its armament which included the 30. cal guns. So did they have them or didn't they? Also, it also says one of its advantages was self-sealing fuel tanks. Unless i'm mistaken, self-sealing tanks weren't introduced until the P-40C. I would just fact check those two things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.40.66 (talk) 04:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

The P-40's were from the British order of Tomahawk Mk IIB's (serial numbers 41-5205 through 41-5304), model H81-A2, which had an improved fuel system, a provision for a belly tank, and 4 .303 wing guns, among other minor improvements. I have not seen any supporting evidence that the aircraft were delivered without the wing guns, but they most definitely had the guns throughout their combat career in the AVG. There are numerous references to the guns being used, and also numerous pictures of the Aircraft in service with the guns prominently protruding from the wings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.161.62 (talk) 19:44, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The planes were delivered without guns, radios, or optical gunsights. These were separately purchased and delivered, as were spare Allison engines. In the event, two calibers of wing gun were fitted, 7.92 mm Colt and .303-cal Browning (though the latter is sometimes disputed). AVGbuff (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

additional citation needed
I kindly request additional information and reference to Ford pf 333-334, please tell me the author or book title. Thank you Jacob805 20:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a Harvard citation: "Ford 2007, pp. 333–334." that corresponds to the bibliographical listing of: "Ford, Daniel. Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941–1942. Washington, DC: HarperCollins-Smithsonian Books, 2007. ISBN 0-06-124655-7." FWiW Bzuk (talk) 20:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC).

Nice to see some info regarding AVG Flying Tigers here. My father is one of the few original volunteers still living. He will be 94 in December. His best friends from Burma have passed, Rossi being the last. My dad, Carl K. Brown finished his education at USC and graduated from medical school in 1951. He furthered his studies and became a Neurologist and practiced until only 6 years ago. He also got his law degree when he was over 70 years old. He has many stories and memories of the AVG days. He was in the 1st Squadron "Adam & Eves." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.0.137 (talk) 03:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Siam, not Thailand
I am not an operator of the Enlish Wikipedia, so I think I cannot correct myself, but please correct wherever needed in this article. The name Thailand is valid since 1949. 147.237.70.61 (talk) 08:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * corrected, thanks.79.180.241.51 (talk) 20:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That was a mistake, if Wikipedia is to be believed: "The country's official name was Siam (Thai: สยาม RTGS: Sayam, pronounced [sàjǎːm]) until 23 June 1939,[12] when it was changed to Thailand. It was then renamed Siam from 1945 to 11 May 1949, after which it was again renamed Thailand." So it was Thailand during the entire period the AVG was in operation. AVGbuff (talk) 00:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect claim of superiority
To quote: "Even using the lower figure of Japanese aircraft downed, the AVG's kill ratio was superior to that of contemporary Allied air groups in Malaya, the Philippines, and elsewhere." This is in fact incorrect. Even using the higher figure of 297 combat victories, with 14 losses, the ratio is nowhere near the results of Polish Fighting Team in Northern Africa - 25 victories with 1 loss. I suggest changing the vague "elsewhere" to "Asian theatre of war". Vonzgred (talk) 00:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Done. AVGbuff (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Photo not accurate representation
The photo appearing on the right side of the Flying Tigers article (desktop mode) is not entirely accurate. My grandfather, Robert Malcolm Dial (Army Serial Number: 19081816), is sitting on the wing in the photo, 4th from the left (2nd from right), and was a Flying Tiger of the 14th Air Force (23d Fighter Group). According to the online military archive, he enlisted on March 27, 1942 and left out of Los Angeles for China. Bob Dial is never listed on AVG rosters. The photo being used is probably of the 14th Air Force Flying Tigers and not of the 1st AVG. Though it may contain AVG members. Rdial79 (talk) 18:53, 15 May 2014 (UTC)Robert Monroe Dial May 15, 2014


 * I hope will be able to recall where the photo came from. If there are many AVG personnel in the image, and a few other guys, then the photo is largely appropriate. Certainly its caption can be tweaked to say most of the men are AVG, though not all. However, if most of the men are 14th AF, then I agree the photo should not be used. Binksternet (talk) 21:13, 15 May 2014 (UTC)