Talk:Footbag

Circle Kick justification
Circle Kick needs justification. More than just kicking happens and it can be played without kicking. -Cews 17:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It certainly involves more than kicking, but whatever about the accuracy of the term, the term suitable for Wikipedia is the one with consensus behind it. Certainly, Wikipedia is not the place for the introduction of a new term. One justification for "circle kick" is that it has some currency at the footbag.org site, at least in forums (search for "circle kick" at footbag.org). Unforunately, the IFPA, who are officially responble for the various official footbag sports, don't seem to concern themselves with this informal game. If you can find some solid off-Wikipedia references to another name, then it should certainly be considered. --Malcohol 14:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Poorly phrased insert
This passage may very well be correct, but its phrasing and the fact that the author references him/herself just irk me. I don't know if this violates Wikipedia policy, but I think we can agree that it needs to be edited.

-Note: Actually the above paragraph is in error. Marshall may have introduced -Stalberger to the concept earlier but Johnny's first partner was Clarke Schneider, a -friend in Houston where Johnny was living in 1972. They experimented with various -materials and stitchings over a period of a year or so. Johnny decided to relocate -to Oregon to concentrate on introducing the footbag to sports teams on the west -coast. Clarke was not interested in relocating and sold his interest in Hacky Sack -(the name from the outset)and Johnny went to Oregon and the rest is history. I own -both a prototype hand sewn Hacky Sack (made by Clarke's wife)and a promotional T -shirt made in 1973. end of note.

~Kazu 22:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I grew up down the street from the Schneiders in Houston and can remember kicking some of the prototype flat foot bags with Clarke's younger brother, Brett. We also experimented playing over tennis nets at Memorial Park. Clarke was a standout baseball player at Bellaire High School and my understanding is that it was his idea to change the stitching to more like a baseball to make it more consistent. Years ago I had some of those prototype hacky sacks that were hand sewn by his wife. I wish I still had them. Ztitans1 (talk) 03:58, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Separate pages for footbag sports
Eventually, I think it would be a good idea to split off the footbag sports into seperate pages, i.e. Footbag freestyle, Footbag net, Circle kick. This page would remain as a central page but could also go into more detail about the physical footbag itself. Malcohol 16:35, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree -- especially if someone (probably me :-)) puts in more information about the rules of different variants, like n-hit Kill. There's also some information in the linked Everything2 nodes that looks good -- I'll have to check on copyrights again to make sure we can use that, though. --bdesham 19:21, Aug 22, 2003 (UTC)

I agree, although I think the freestyle page should be phrased Freestyle Footbag, because that's what the people who play the game call it. I'm one of them. --Footfun 18:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Variations and original research
I'm concerned that this article is being used to store the rules of 'new' varients of footbag. If so, then it might contradict the wiki's no original research policy. If the rules of these varients are well established, then can someone add links to some other website/resource where they are described? If not, then wikipedia isn't the place. --Malcohol 16:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Footbag is a UK term
Well it also may be Austrailian as well but in America practicly know one refers to it as a Footbag. or the game as "Hacking the Sack" instead the terms used for both is generally Hacky Sack I understand that this is probobly a generalized trademark but the majority of Americans won't know what a "footbag" or a "Circle Kick" is. -Deathawk 17:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. It's not called FootBag in America... So?
 * I think the term "footbag" was coined by the creators of the sport (both American's, I think) and is its official name. Since it is the role of an encyclopedia to be authorative, Footbag would therefore be the correct term. You're right though: most people do use "Hacky-sack" and "Hacky sack". Fortunately, both terms redirect to this page, so they shouldn't have too much trouble finding the article.--Malcohol 10:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You may be right that the term "footbag" was coined by the game's creators, but the name that they trademarked was "Hacky Sack," thus making that the "official" name of the sport, or at least of the bag itself. 128.175.10.246 13:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, they trademarked "Hacky Sack" as the name for their brand of footbag.--Malcohol 12:00, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, Hacky Sack is no more the official name than Frisbee is for Flying Disc.

Ok I'm cool with that but I have never heard anyone refer to Circle Kick as "Hacking the Sack" Deathawk 03:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * if we redirect well, there should be no problems, although Hacky Sack doesn't redirect to footbag (which is a good thing). Also the two pages Hacky Sack and Footbag have many links to each other and describe different parts of the same idea (maybe they should be combined?)--Superman 20:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hippy connection
Hippies are commonly the image that they smoke pot and play hacky sack. There's no info on this culture in the article. DyslexicEditor 16:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hippies rule. I think the reason that there's no info on this is that no one knows enough about hippies, (except the hippies themselves) to write about their culture. -Unknown
 * Probably because it's not a significant aspect of the culture. It's recreation, and yes, potsmokers and hippies (they are exclusive terms) do engage in recreation too. They actually play it a lot on TV studios, I should know. Tyciol 13:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hackysack culture
I don't know what the hackysack culture is in other areas but I know in British Columbia, Canada the punk and stoner scenes have really adopted it into there life style. I think there should be some references about the culture on the page.

Italic text I disagree. That is really a broad statement. I play hackysack and I'm not a stoner or a punk, as a matter of fact, I'm an honors student. I have a ton of friends that play hackysack as well, and they aren't stoners either. If you do put something in about culture, make sure you do some research, because you may offend a lot of people that play hackysack that aren't punks or stoners, but just think that it's fun to play.

Kill

 * I've just deleted this section from the main article, as there is a section on Kill in List of circle kick variants. The section I deleted is below --Malcohol 12:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Kill is a different type of game played with hackysack. Generally, (like cicle kick or freestyle), players will stand in a circle and attempt to achieve a certain number of touches (e.g. 4 hit kill, where the player must hit the hack 4 times). After this is achieved a player may attempt to get another person or player out. However most of the time (if people play with neighbors) you cannot get the person next to you out until their are 4 persons left. At this point players will fairly distribute the hack so every person has equal chance to hack the sack. This continues on until each person is eliminated. (elimination occurs when a person does not keep the hacky sack in play, or is just hit anywhere aboove the knees. You continue playing until their is only one person left. At this point, the person becomes known as the Hack king - for at least this one game, and a new game is started.

General Rules

 * 1) Once a person is eliminated new people are not allowed to join.
 * 2) Must hit the hack the predetermined amount of times before getting someone out
 * 3) Self serve - your out
 * 4) Below the knee - your out
 * 5) Neighbors - cant get the person next to you out until 4 people are left
 * I fixed this up but have no idea who created it. Tyciol 13:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

the way ive always played is if you get hit ABOVE the knee and dont play it, your eliminated and no rule about below the knee. also, there is no rule about getting your neighbors out...everyone is fair game. also, some circles i've played in have something called a kill switch rule where if you have been eliminated, you stand outside the circle like you normally would, but if the hacky sack comes out of the circle and you can hit it, you can go for it and try to get someone in the circle out. if you get someone from inside the circle out while you are outside the circle, your back in and the other person is out(hence the name kill switch). other names of the game "kill" that ive heard used are death and ping, all depends on area your playing in.

Footbag and Football?
I've seen a lot of tricks just like hacky sack performed by football (soccer) players. Don't you guys think there should be an article on this too? I posted a request for this on the soccer page as well. I guess among enthusiasts it will become controversial to discuss which is more difficult. Personally, while I look footbag more, the same trick done with a soccer ball impresses me more do the the size, and since the ball gives less (and in a spherical way) it's weirder to handle. Tyciol 13:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Hacky Sack
Maybe the article "Hacky Sack" should be merged into here. 24.76.92.224 20:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed.--Malcohol 09:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

There should be some clear separation between the casual activity of kicking a bag around and the sport of footbag, each deserving separate pages.

Hacky Sack is a brand name for the first footbag, and also in North America is a term commonly associated with the activity of kicking a bag around casually in a circle. However, this is an inaccurate view of the sport and conveys a poor contemporary view of the sport. In terms of history and culture, Hacky Sack deserves a place on the footbag page, but more attention should be paid to the contemporary view of the sport held by the players and the actual footbag community.

http://modified.in/ is the main community forum for the sport of footbag. Other sites like http://flipsider.com/ have a wealth of information about the intricacies of freestyle footbag.

The european viewpoint of the sport is much clearer due to not needing to fight through the negative slacker views associated with the term hacky sack. It has always been known as footbag and practiced as a sport there.

Footbag is the name of the sport, therefore this page should maintain a focus in that regard, with links to other pages concerning the more relaxed versions of circle kicking and 'hacky sack'. Focus should remain on the variations of competitive play, mainly footbag freestyle and footbag net.

The picture of a footbag should be changed to a contemporary, professionally made 32 panel footbag, and the crocheted version reserved for the Hacky Sack page. No footbag player would seriously consider playing with a crocheted bag, and would not be recommended for someone wishing to learn how to play.

Also there is now an official footbag shoe, released as of Footbag World Championships 2006 in Germany. The shoe is called "Quantum". More information is available at flipsider.com.

I don't think I'm the best person to make all the updates needed, but there is a ways to go before this page reflects the sport in the proper light.Gjr 17:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Serving in Circle Kick
Someone just added the phrase "It is also considered good posture to serve with feet, not hands." to the circle kick section. Aside from the fact that the word "posture" is inappropriate, this claim surprises me. I know that there is no fixed set of rules for circle kick, but in any circle kick I've been a part of, serving with the hands has always been the norm. This is especially important for beginners, since it usually means that the first pass at least is accurate.--Malcohol 08:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

list of moves
I have started a list of moves that I have found on Wikipedia and the web. I think that we can start a new article about the tricks and moves in footbag. This is what I have so far (obviously it needs work and deffinitions):

The List
 * Inside Kick
 * Outside Kick
 * Knee
 * Toe Kick
 * Spin
 * The Elvis
 * The Thrust
 * The Pavarotti
 * The Reverse matrix
 * The Hummingbird
 * The Riverdance
 * Clipper Kick
 * Around The World Kick
 * Flying Inside
 * Flying Outside
 * Flying Clipper (Jester) 
 * Back Stab
 * Pendulum
 * A Hewy
 * Stall
 * Toe Stall
 * Inside Stall
 * Outside Stall
 * Forehead Stall
 * Knee Stall
 * Toilet Stall
 * Hat Brim Stall
 * Chest Stall
 * Coight Stall

tell me what you think, also I have removed the list of moves at the top of this article, it adds little and this covers it.--Superman 20:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of these moves are not footbag moves (Pavarotti reverse Matrix etc.) You can find a relatively complete list of moves that have been hit and their descriptions here: http://www.modified.in/footbag/viewtopic.php?t=2871&start=0

The list is long there are several hundred entries there. I'm not sure of the usefulness of having such a list in this article firstly due to it's size, secondly due to the fact that the list increases monthly (on average). Max bxl 15:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that it would be more useful to discuss trick nomenclature:


 * clip > op in dex > op toe            "Mirage" (from clipper set)
 * clip > SAME in dex > op toe          "Paradox Mirage" (from clipper set)
 * clip > op in dex > op in dex > op toe "Blur" (from clipper set)

trick nomenclature allows any trick to be described and analysed as to its degree of difficulty. A simple list of tricks is not of much use. Remember its an encyclopedia, not a footbag wiki. User:Pedant 09:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

first real footbag shoe
planetfootbag has now released the first shoe designed especially and exclusively for footbag. would be good if some native english speaker could put that into the article. i don't speak english well enough...

I added a short line on the quantum shoe, and a direct to the planetfootbag website.

History
The history section was changed to this:
 * Footbag was invented in 1972 in Houston, Texas, when John Stalberger met Clarke Schneider . They worked together to fine-tune the footbag and market it to the public. John eventually decided to relocate to Oregon to market the footbag to sports teams on the west coast. There he met Mike Marshall and patented the footbag without including his origonal partner ( Schneider). It took off and Whammo bought it leaving John and Marshall in great financial shape and Schneider somewhat less so.

I've no idea whether this change is more or less accurate than what's in the article. However, I suggest that supporting references be provided before a change like this is adopted, or else that the history section should acknowledge that there is some disagreement over the history. I note that "Clarke Schneider" is mentioned on the footbag patent form.--Malcohol 10:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Mentioned in another part of this article. I can confirm Clarke Schneider was involved in the beginning. I was a close friend of his younger brother and we would play with the original hand sewn Hacky Sacks that Clarke's wife put together. Clarke was a great baseball player at Bellaire and I believe it was his input to change it from a flat bag to the baseball pattern stitching to make the bounce more consistent. I used to have some of the prototypes as a kid in Houston. Ztitans1 (talk) 04:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

copyvio
The entire history section, and some other sections needs a drastic rewrite as it is obviously copied from http://www.footbag.org/faq/show/941272106

compare Wikipedia:

"Footbag was invented in 1972 in Oregon City, Oregon, when John Stalberger met Mike Marshall, who had been kicking around a hand-made bean bag. John had recently had knee surgery and was looking for a way to work on his flexibility. He instantly took to the game and became good friends with Marshall. They called the game "Hack the Sack", and it gained popularity in the 80s."

"Stalberger and Marshall soon became enthralled with the game, which Marshall had been hoping to promote with the general public. The two designed a product, which they trademarked the "Hacky Sack", and began putting together a plan to market the product and the sport. At the same time, they decided to create a "generic" term for the sport itself, as opposed to their product, and they named the sport "footbag". Hacky Sack has become a genericized trademark and the term is often used for both the sport and the bag, no matter who made the bag."

"When Mike Marshall died of a heart attack in 1975, at only 28 years of age, Stalberger, determined to realize their vision of footbag as a sport, continued to promote the product and the game. He formed the National Hacky Sack Association along with the help of many others. He ultimately sold the rights for the Hacky Sack footbag to Kransco (operating under the Wham-O label), which also manufactured the frisbee flying disc."

"In the years following the creation of the Hacky Sack product, many footbag enthusiasts began sprouting up around the world, and a sport was born. Following the model of volleyball and tennis, players began volleying a footbag over a 5-foot-high net (on a badminton court) and "footbag net" became an attractive alternative sport. Freestyle footbag (where players stand in a circle, do tricks with the footbag, and pass it around the circle) has become the most popular form of the game because of its cooperative nature. Advanced freestylers choreograph routines to music, much like rhythmic gymnastics or figure skating."

"Footbag sports have a rules body that governs the various aspects of competitive footbag play: the International Footbag Committee (IFC). Organized footbag is overseen by the International Footbag Players' Association, the international governing body of the sport of footbag."

with footbag.org:

"Footbag is a modern American sport. It was invented in 1972 in Oregon City, Oregon, when John Stalberger met Mike Marshall, who had been kicking around a hand-made bean bag. John had recently had knee surgery and was looking for a way to work on his flexibility, and he instantly took to the game and become good friends with Marshall. They called the game, "Hack the Sack.""

"Stalberger and Marshall soon became enthralled with the game, which Marshall had been hoping to promote with the general public. The two designed a product, which they trademarked the "Hacky Sack", and began putting together a plan to market the product and the sport. At the same time, they decided to create a "generic" term for the sport itself, as opposed to their product, and they named the sport "footbag"."

"Tragically, Mike Marshall died of a heart attack in 1975, at only 28 years of age. Stalberger, determined to realize their vision of footbag as a sport, continued to promote the product and the game. He formed the National Hacky Sack Association along with the help of many others. He ultimately sold the rights for the Hacky Sack footbag to Kransco (operating under the Wham-O label), which also manufactered the Frisbee flying disc."

"In the years following the creation of the Hacky Sack product, many footbag enthusiasts began sprouting up around the world, and a sport was born. Following the model of volleyball and tennis, players began volleying a footbag over a 5-foot-high net (on a B'adminton court) and "footbag net" became an attractive alternative sport. Freestyle footbag (where players stand in a circle, do tricks with the footbag, and pass it around the circle) has become the most popular form of the game, because of its cooperative nature. Advanced freestylers choreograph routines to music, much like rhythmic gymnastics or figure skating.''"

"Footbag sports now have a rules body that governs the various aspects of competitive footbag play: the International Footbag Committee (IFC). For more information on organized footbag, see the Official Rules of Footbag Sports as well as the rest of this website. "

The footbag.org site predates the text in the wikipedia article by about 2 years. The quoted text above is not the only copyvio either. User:Pedant 08:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed the history section. If there are other sections that have been copied, please identify or remove them. However, as the whole article is not a copyvio, I see no reason to delete it. -- JLaTondre 15:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Hacky Smack
Hacky Smack is a modification of Circle kicking in which after a certain number of kicks, usually 3 different people kick the footbag at least once, it is caught and thrown at one of the other players in the circle. After a player had been hit a certain number of times, usually 3 again, they are out for the game. All parts of the body as spots for viable hits. Though arms and hands don't count when the bag is still in the kicking stage, but chest and head are welcomed. Once the footbag is caught it has to be thrown at another player with the same hand. If the footbag is thrown and then caught again then it must be thrown at a second player in the game. As long as the footbag does not touch the ground it is still in play, thus stalling is a very good tactic especially on the final hit. The game continues until there are only 2 players left, at which time the game usually restarts unless they want to have a final winner(not typically done because it is a time consuming process to play "smack" with only 2 people, and not nearly as fun). User:Pedant 09:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Start class article
This has been assessed as Start class due to a scarcity in references. If this article was properly sourced (items in the external links area do not count) it would easily be a B class article. Aboutmovies 23:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge in info from Bean Bag
the page Bean bag has information on different versions of Footbag games that woruld realy belong more on this page. The Bean Bag page should certainly have some information on footbag, but doesn't need half a dozen variations on the rules of diferent games. I don't know enough about the topic to accurately integrate the infomation into this article, would anyone else be willing to try? If not, I'll move the information from tht page to the talk section of the Footbag page in about a month. Sbacle 12:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This information on variations of fotbag games is directly from the bean bag article. It was out of place there, but I don't know enough about footbag to integrate this into the article properly.

Sbacle 10:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Freestyle hackysack involves performing tricks while keeping the bean bag airborne for an extended period of time.
 * Circle kick (also hacking circle) requires several players to test their skills against one another. The players gather in a circle and attempt to kick the hackysack around the circle.  The goal is for everyone to kick the hackysack at least once in a round.
 * In Numbers, the players start off with a circle kick, and each consecutive holder of the hackysack must kick it a certain number of times. The number increases on every success.
 * In Brandy, similar to Killer, the number of kicks is chosen before the game starts. After the game starts, if a player drops the hackysack after the number of kicks has been past, any other player can pick up the sack and throw hard at the player. The player who drops the sack generally runs away from the circle to avoid being hit. Only one throw is allowed. the game continues if it hits or misses. If a player drops the hackysack before the number of kicks has been met, the game continues.
 * In Horse, the players start with a circle hack, and try to keep the hack up for as long as possible. If a person drops the hack, he/she gets a letter. Once a person gets the entire word spelled out (you can choose whatever word you want), they stand up against a wall, and the last person to hit the hack before it was dropped gets to stand about 15 feet back and throw it at them.

team hackey sack is real
my article on team hackey sack shouldn't have been deleted, i've contacted and conversed as well as witness people play versions very similar if not the same to this all around the us and Canada its been a footbag variant for close to 5 years, simply because its not referenced or even recognized in any web site doesn't make it unreal or unworthy; its a variant just as all the others are. footbagging is awso a great way to kill pepole

Where is information on the "Donut"?
I don't know where exactly this would belong, but I see nowhere here anything about the "donut" -- when a person's kicking leg forms a hole with the kicking ankle being at some point along the supporting leg, and the footbag goes through said hole and hits the ground. 63.25.41.173 (talk) 20:33, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Footbag Games should be deleted
Footbag Games should be deleted, there is already an article to cover this List of circle kick variants this article is suppose to be about the hack itself not the games played with it, although the section on Circle kick does cover the neccesary brief mention of the games. this list needs to go, I want to gain consensus first though. Wiki is not an indiscriminate list of information per WP:INDISCRIMINATE we should keep the article on track and the games in the article about the gamesSmitty1337 (talk) 22:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree wholeheartedly, particularly as this list is duplicated elsewhere. Maintaining two separate lists is in itself problematic. Feel free to delete, provided of course that no info is lost (ie. that all games are indeed already listed in List of circle kick variants before they are removed from this article). Ian Fieggen (talk) 22:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Best School Team
I've just removed this again. It doesn't belong because the section is "Footbag world records" and says clearly "The Guinness Book of World Records has recognized...". If there's well-known competition between "Perth elite schools" there might be a place for a new section, even an article - but not under World Records. Snori (talk) 18:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Hacky Sack
The Hacky Sack article is about Stalberger and Marshall's trademarked 1970s version of the footbag. There's only a couple of paragraphs of actual text about their product, and not much more to say - the rest is about the "traditional game" of kicking a bag around, something that the Footbag article goes into much more depth about. Merging the two articles may be more useful than reducing "Hacky Sack" to a two-paragraph stub about the product - given that "hacky sack" is a generic trademark, many readers hitting the hacky sack article will be looking for general information about playing footbag. McGeddon (talk) 10:51, 17 January 2017 (UTC)