Talk:Football/Archive 1

Blokjesvoetbal/Flesjesvoetbal
Was there any reason for a redirect to the talk page of the Association football article?

Anyway, what I really wanted to discuss: school kids in the Netherlands play a game called blokjesvoetbal (lit. 'block football') or flesjesvoetbal (lit. 'bottle football'). It is typically played by three players or more, although more than, say, 7 players is unusual.

The playing field needs to be fairly level: on it, bottles or bricks are placed, or anything not too big that can topple over. The objects are usually placed in a wide circle. Each player gets to guard exactly one brick. Points are scored by shooting the ball against a brick so that it falls flat on the field. The defender has to put the brick back up and the game resumes. As with Three sided football, alliances can be made on the spur.

What I wanted to ask: is this game at all known outside the Netherlands? Is it a form of 'football', or should it be listed elsewhere?

Triskelion and Scuffleball
Made some changes to this page. Please be patient concerning the new links I've put in - triskelion and scuffleball and the like. I will provide more information on them soon. - Scooter 07:46, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Warwickshire?
I don't think it's correct to include Gaelic football or Australian Rules Football under "Warwickshire", unless there is some cource which says that Gaelic took it's inspiration from previous varieties being played in Warwickshire, which I doubt!

Although there is no proof of the link between Gaelic and Australian Rules, the similarities are strong (reflected in the cross over of players and the International Rules matches), and the original influence of Rugby on Aussie Rules has now all but disappeared. So these games should be grouped together. (Grant; March 2, 2004.)

I have now created a separate "family" of Irish and Australian football. Secondly, I don't know if anyone knows which game was the first "football" to have an official set of rules, but Aussie Rules was definitely codified before the FA existed, so I have mentioned it in a new paragraph in the history section. Also, the FA's first set of rules was not "Association football" as we now know it --- in fact there were a lot of similarities to modern Rugby (see the Rugby football article for more on this). I have re-worded the history to reflect this. (Grant; March 3, 2004.)

Cambridge, Sheffield, Australian Rules & Gaelic football
The Cambridge rules (which formed the basis of the FA rules) were drawn up in Cambridge in 1848. Mintguy (T) 09:59, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You are right, although the original Cambridge rules have not survived and they seem to have had as much, if not more, in common with modern Rugby. (Likewise the Sheffield rules (1857) are also often said to have contribued to soccer, although to me they seem to have shared a common ancestor with Aussie Rules, i.e. the ball could be caught by any player (marked) from a clean kick and there was no offside rule at all.) Anyway, I guess the main point is that the Cambridge rules should mentioned as the forerunner of both soccer and Rugby.

I'd also be interested to hear whether rugby (football) really has anything to do with "Warwickshire football", or was really the creation of the Rugby School and other public schools. (Grant; March 7, 2004)


 * Everybody played by whatever rules they liked (even in Australia) as there was no official body to declare that one rule was right and another wasn't. The FA was formed with the express purpose of providing that official body and they attempted to establish a single code. The Blackheath team were party to the formation of the FA but withdrew at the last minute because the FA outlawed hacking (kicking an oponent in the shins). Blackheath went on to form the RFU and ironically later lobbied succesfully for hacking to be banned from the Rugby code. The modern game of Rugby was created by the RFU. Mintguy (T) 16:23, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've merged the History of football article back into this one, it wasn't receiving much attention where it was and the size of the history section in this article seemed to be growing. The History of football article was really only half an article anyway; ending at the Highways act of 1835 banning the game on the public Highway and which led to the development of the game on a pitch sepcially laid out for the purpose. I had written more on later developments but got bored with the subject, I'll have to find my notes. You may notice that the history section has sometihing to say about the possible origin of Aussie Rules. Mintguy (T) 10:52, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good job, well done Mintguy. For clarity's sake, I've broken up some paragraphs, rearranged some, added a par about Canadian & American football, inserted some bits about rules to show how the Cambridge rules (etc) differed from Association football and made many other small changes. Hope you approve. (Grant; March 9, 2004)

A few points. Firstly the FA is not a league. The FA only organised a league with the formation of the FA Premiership in 1992. It's impossible to say that the game ""not banned" in Ireland resembled Gaelic footbal or anything else, There is no evidence. Gaelic Football itself is an invention of the GAA, You cannot say "Although Gaelic football had been played in Ireland for centuries..." There was no such thing as Gaelic Football, it was an uncoded form of football like everywhere else. The 1848 rules are lost, but there is apparently little difference between them and the ~1856 version in Shrewsbury School's libray. These rules are taken from "The History of the Football Association" (1951) They are as follows -

Cambridge Rules of 1856

 * 1. This Club shall be called the University Foot Ball Club.


 * 2. At the commencement of play, the ball shall be kicked off from the middle of the ground; after every goal there shall be a kick-off in the same way or manner.


 * 3. After a goal, the losing side shall kick off; the sides changing goals unless a previous arrangement be made to the contrary.


 * 4. The ball is out when it has passed the line of the flag-post on either side of the ground, in which case it shall be thrown in straight.


 * 5. The ball is "behind" when it has passed the goal on either side of it.


 * 6. When the ball is behind, it shall be brought forward at the place where it left the ground not more than ten paces, and kicked off.


 * 7.• Goal is when the ball is kicked through the flag-posts and under the string.


 * 8. When a player catches the ball directly from the foot, he may kick it as he can without running with it. In no other case may the ball be touched with the hands, except to stop it.


 * 9. If the ball has passed a player and has come from the direction of his own goal, he may not touch it till the other side have kicked it, unless there are more than three of the other side before him. No player is allowed to loiter between the ball and the adversaries' goal. 


 * 10. In no case is holding a player, pushing with the hands or tripping up allowed. Any player may prevent another from getting to the ball by any means consistent with this rule.


 * 11. Every match shall be decided by a majority of goals.

I've highlighted 8 as this is the reference to the 'mark' (clearly this is the only time the ball can be handled) and also the part about loitering in 9 because this is effectivley an offside rule. Thus these rules clearly favour the kicking gameMintguy (T) 13:56, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Here are the

Sheffield Rules of 1857

 * 1. The kick from the middle must be a place kick.


 * 2. Kick Out must not be more than 25 yards out of goal.


 * 3. Fair Catch is a catch from any player provided the ball has not touched the ground or has not been thrown from touch and is entitled to a free-kick.


 * 4. Charging is fair in case of a place kick (with the exception of a kick off as soon as a player offers to kick) but he may always draw back unless he has actually touched the ball with his foot.


 * 5. Pushing with the hands is allowed but no hacking or tripping up is fair under any circumstances whatever.


 * 6. No player may be held or pulled over.


 * 7. It is not lawful to take the ball off the ground (except in touch) for any purpose whatever.


 * 8. The ball may be pushed or hit with the hand, but holding the ball except in the case of a free kick is altogether disallowed.


 * 9. A goal must be kicked but not from touch nor by a free kick from a catch.


 * 10. A ball in touch is dead, consequently the side that touches it down must bring it to the edge of the touch and throw it straight out from touch.


 * 11. Each player must provide himself with a red and dark blue flannel cap, one colour to be worn by each side

Do you have the first Aussie rules for comparison? Mintguy (T) 13:56, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Origins of Australian Rules
Now I'm confused. In looking for these original Aussie rules. I get that - Thomas Wills, William Hammersley, James Thompson, and Thomas Smith came together on May 17, 1859, to draw up a set of rules. What have thse two guys you mention got to do with it? And I still can't find a copy of these original Aussie rules. Mintguy (T) 14:14, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh can can you please create an accoutn and log in. It would make life easier. Mintguy (T) 14:16, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Ok I've found a site with the first Aussie Rules of May 1859. http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/melbourne.htm. Interestingly the site ays ".. 1858 witnessed both the famous 'grand football match' between teams of forty a side from Scotch College and Melbourne's Church of England Grammar School, traditionally regarded as the fledgling code's first manifestation ... the establishment of the Melbourne Football Club was a definite event which can be precisely located chronologically, the earmarking of 1858 as the year in which Australian football was 'born' is a mere convenience, with nothing substantive to back it up. Football of various sorts had been played in Melbourne for at least twenty years". Thus the first rules of May 1859 is the watershed. Mintguy (T) 14:30, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)