Talk:Football/Archive 13

They called it Flashball in 1974 but what do you call it?
So far as I can tell, the game they had us play in our physical education class in Clackamas High School in the North Clackamas School District in Oregon was called Flashball, and it doesn't seem to be discussed anywhere in Wiki, so I might as well pipe up here, and ask if anybody knows a game similar to it.

The game was superficially similar to American Football because of the use of the single prolate spheroid football, and the idea that points could be had, by taking it to the other side of the rectangular field, somehow, and getting it over the goal line. However, it permitted bouncing the ball, rolling the ball, passing the ball, smuggling the ball, and wrestling for the ball. 'Wrestling' means you had to punch or pry the ball out of the bearer's arms, sometimes with the assistance of a team member trying to twist the guy's arm away, to make him let go, and you only had up to the count of ten to do so. Tackling and tripping was permitted. It was a good idea to wear a helmet because it was a little rough. You didn't have to be the guy carrying the ball to be in danger of being tackled, as anybody could tackle anybody, even members of your own team. As for Rugby, I don't exactly understand the terms ruck or maul, so I will simply leave that term to others, so they can go back to those articles so they can describe those terms better.

For one thing, does Rugby or Gaelic Football have Referees who are supposed to count to ten (very loudly) when a battle for possession begins? Flashball does.

To start the game, the opposing teams lined up on opposite ends of the field. Then the Referee would walk out and into the middle of the field, and throw the football towards the team that had fewer team members (thus allowing uneven numbers of players to play against each other). Anybody could snatch it up, and take off running with it, hopefully making it through the opposing team as they gathered to take him down. More often than not, one or more opposing team members would take him down and attempt to bury the ball. But he could pass or bounce the ball out of harm's way, such that his comrades could pick it up, and take off running with it. The ball has to be buried till the count of ten, at which point the Referee declares which team was in "possession" of the ball. It helps to have reversible T-shirts because the Referee would say something like, "Blue has the Ball" or "Red has the Ball" depending on who had the ball more firmly immobilized. If the ball rolls out of the mass of wrestling players, the Referee shouted "Ball in Motion." If the ball comes to rest without any players in possession of it, then the Referee (after counting to ten) shouts out the name of the team most properly (that is, previously) in possession of the ball.

Aside from the initial throw of the ball by the Referee to the team that needed a break, the rest of the game was played by lining up the team members and hiking the ball, and then running it to the other side of the field. You generally don't line up to "hike the ball" until the Referee blows on his whistle, after which, any players who are still wrestling in some other part of the field (not realizing that they were no longer in possession of the ball) are supposed to stop what they are doing, and come line up for the hike.

As I understand it, dropping the ball and kicking it over the goalie line doesn't count for any points. You actually had to physically transport or carry the ball over the goal line for it to count.

If opposing players were to rush the ball before it was hiked, the Referee had authority to penalize that team, and make them backup 5 yards, and everybody had to line up again. Unnecessary roughness (like punching somebody in the ribs, when you were simply trying to punch the ball out of somebody's arms) was another reason for a penalty. (And similarly for "accidentally" spraining somebody's fingers when he won't let go of the ball, and two or three people are simultaneously trying to make him let go. If you have that many people wrestling for the ball, any sane man will toss the ball before it comes to that.)

It was okay to tackle anybody you wanted, this being an interesting ploy for a more numerous team to employ against a less numerous team, inasmuch as two players could be taken down for the price of one. Unlike Rugby, there was no duty to move away from the ball after tacking the bearer. The game goes fast enough, that it isn't always immediately clear which player has the ball. Having one Referee is mandatory, but having two Referees is even better. As I seem to recall, eight touchdowns (carrying the ball physically over the goal line, and touching it to the ground) made a game. 198.177.27.22 04:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for your contribution. From a quick Google, the places where it was/is played seem to be pretty limited. Anyway, if you have good, reliable information on it, feel free to write a separate article and link it from the "Modern inventions and hybrid games" section of this article. Grant | Talk 11:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know if it is played at Clackamas High School anymore, as I was a graduate of the Class of '76. My gut feeling, however, is that the perception of tort liability on the part of the public school system (resulting from a student's suffering grievous harm) led to the game's eventual demise.  Darn shame, as I really wish video records of the game had been made so they could be preserved for posterity, and maybe re-broadcast on cable tv. 198.177.27.11 06:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

In South America we keep it simple; Football for the real one, American Football, Australian Football. The name Soccer just sounds ridiculous. The English they teach here is the correct one (British) not American

This is a tes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.17.17.249 (talk) 19:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well from most everyone I know it was called soccer or football. Azamiz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azamiz (talk • contribs) 23:20, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Meterials
The football is made of mostly pigskin. Inside the football, there is a small but strong magnet. The magnet's purpose is to make sure the football never hits the feildgoal camera. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.146.101 (talk) 21:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Association football
Can I have a reference from FIFA that shows that the name of the game is 'Association Football'? I dont trust British sources to be unbiased. If you guys dont have a source from FIFA, it would be more accurate to call the game Football.Rosiethegreat 21:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We do not need a source to call the sport 'Association football', after all the NFL don't call their sport 'American football'. We can't exactly call both of them 'football'. But in any case FIFA stands for 'International Federation of Association football' (only in French).GordyB 21:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * From FIFA's Statutes (http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/statutes_08_2006_en.pdf): "Association Football: the game controlled by FIFA and organised in accordance with the Laws of the Game." and "Each Member of FIFA shall play Association Football in compliance with the Laws of the Game issued by IFAB."ReadingOldBoy 13:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * FIFA's Statutes are now at (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/fifa_statutes_0719_en_14479.pdf)58.109.103.235 03:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

No, FIFA stands for 'Fédération Internationale de Football Association' .If the Association actually came before the Football , it made some sense .But it doesnt - so the point of 'International Federation of Association Football ' is moot.

Coming to American football, only people in North america call it 'football ' .While I agree the official name of that sport is also football , the reality is that people outside of North America call it 'American Football ' to distinguish it from the more popular football.
 * Irrelevant, as it happens that this English language version of Wikipedia originates in the USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.18.52.185 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 8 January 2008

i am still wondering where do people get the theory that 'Football' is called 'Association Football ' .Without a FIFA reference, its completely unacceptable to come up with such a name .Rosiethegreat 21:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it is not. One only needs a dictionary but since you insist I shall find a reference though it will not necessarily be a FIFA reference. As for your point about French - French word order is different to English. It's pointless defining French words in terms of English grammar. THe translation is correct as I gave it.GordyB 22:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the US Embassy to London Association football is correct.GordyB 22:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Rosie - In FIFA It is not 'Associative football'. 'Association' is a noun in English. 'Association football' is a compound noun formed of two nouns like 'post office' or 'dinner guest'. In French it is also a compound noun but the order is reversed. CONCACAF stands for the 'Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean 'Association Football, The Football Association (after whom the sport is named) publish a book called Laws of Association Football, many clubs use AFC (for Association Football Club) in their names like Sunderland A.F.C. and Leeds United A.F.C. and hundreds of amateur clubs. Believe me there's more than enough "evidence" for this "theory". Jooler 23:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So now the big fight is why or whether or not soccer in parts of Europe is called Association Football. Who cares? As far as the relevant conversation (fight) is concerned, it's whether or not to use "football" in it's international usage (for "soccer"), or to resolve to use of "football" for the meaning of American football. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.18.52.185 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 8 January 2008


 * Associative Football - not to be confused with Commutative Football or Transitive Football. :) Wahkeenah 02:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe Disassociative football? ;-) Grant | Talk 04:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a question maybe not entirely related but... it was brought up here. What do other countries refer to american football as? I mean you said they don't call it football, obviously, so do they just call it american football? XXLegendXx 15:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Usually yes, or Gridiron. In some countries in Europe, such as Germany, they use a local calque for soccer, such as fussball and use "football" for American football, as in Deutscher Fussball-Bund and German Football League. Grant | Talk 16:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't believe that people are asking for a reference in relation to the term "Association Football" - grab any reference book, dictionary or encyclopaedia - and it most likely will have at least once reference to Association Football. Look up any historical work that investigates the origins of the football codes and you will find a reference to Association Football.  I have to be blunt here, it strikes me as incredibly stupid that anyone would question the validity of the term Association Football.  For what it's worth, here is the entry copied directly out of the Macquarie Dictionary (unadulterated):

/'footbawl uhsohsee.ayshuhn/. noun the body responsible for the organisation and administration of association football in England.
 * Football Association
 * πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  21:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The only people who want it changed from football to association football or soccer are people who hate the sport or resent its popularity. Aussiball Rules stats are completely insignificant in this debate anyway. There are only 16 professional teams on the entire planet. --202.47.51.73 19:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Not true. It has never been 'football' to my knowledge on Wikipedia. I like the status quo and I'm a Leeds United supporter.GordyB 20:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed? It has always been called soccer in American English, Australian English, Canadian English, Irish English, New Zealand English, and South African English. I'm an Aussie soccer supporter. I support the Socceroos. Grant | Talk 01:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Here in the USA we call it soccer because we already have a game called football. I'm neutral about soccer, but a lot of Americans love soccer, and they call it soccer for the reason just stated. Wahkeenah 02:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, this article is not for the purpose of debating which is the biggest, best and brightest form of football - it's about football in a generic sense. It covers the history of the football codes, most of which have a common or shared origin, and discusses where we are today in a generic sense - and it does it very well.  Only people with a barrow to push would argue that that's not what should happen here.   πίππύ δ'Ω∑ -  (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  06:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, except that the debate over terminology speaks to article content. Wahkeenah 13:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Going back to the first point about the quantum of professional teams, I think there are no Gaelic Football professional teams on this planet - that does not mean it doesn't deserve a mention as a unique form of football. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ -  (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  10:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Gaelic football is interesting in that the GAA strongly upholds amateurism in Ireland, but the New York GAA's domestic competition is semi-professional. Grant  |  Talk  04:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Native speakers of English throughout the world know what sport the term "soccer" refers to. However, the term "football" refers to too many different sports to be used in place of "soccer" in an international publication such as Wikipedia.Mathnarg 20:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

What happened to this page
The previous format of this page was great and lots of people put a lot of work into it.... so what happened. I think it should be reinstated. Jd
 * That was vandalism. I restored it. Whythis page is the subject of so much vandalism is beyond me. Jooler 23:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It has become a football. Wahkeenah 03:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Anybody know how to get the page protected? The amount of vandalism is crazy.GordyB 07:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Saw this request on my watchlist, and I've semi-protected for a week. Requests for protection can be made at Requests for page protection (WP:RFP). Oldelpaso 09:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've requested semi-protection.GordyB 09:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, should have said future requests. I've already semi-protected it. Oldelpaso 10:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like permanent semi-protection because the vandalism is on-going and done by many different anonymous users. The content of this page is fairly near complete other than a lack of referencing and it is not really controversial. I've read the protocols on the page you've linked to but I can't see any way of getting permanent protection. Should I just request it after your temp protection expires or do I need to request temporary protection every week?GordyB 13:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

(de-indent) No, there's no permanent protection. Some high profile vandal-magnets (e.g. George W. Bush) are de facto permenantly semi-protected, but they are very much exceptions. I've not been an admin for long so I don't have much experience with protections, but if (or more likely when) the vandalism gets heavy again, you could probably request that it should be protected for a longer time, citing the previous history of vandalism. Oldelpaso 17:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I've semi-protected it for 14 days, to have a little peace and quiet. -- Arwel (talk) 21:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

We finally have indefinite semi-protection!GordyB 22:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment on intro attribution to England
I had a minor concern on the following statement at the end of the first paragraph.
 * Many of the modern games have their origins in England, but many peoples around the world have played games which involved kicking and/or carrying a ball since ancient times.

I realize this statement is intended to be politically correct. Certainly it is true that England did not uniquely invent this type of sport and even England's inventions derive from sports originating in other places (this can be said of almost anything in any country). Nevertheless, my understanding is that everything in the world called "football" in English (and referred to by a phonetically similar word in other languages) came from England, at least indirectly. So it seems to me that this statement is unfairly politically correct, unless there is some aspect of the history that I am not aware of. Maybe the statement should be something like the following.
 * Although, games involving kicking and/or carrying balls have existed in many cultures, all modern games known in English as "football" derive from games that originated in England.

Just my opinion ... --Mcorazao 03:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really. The subject of the article is all football games and there were many traditional/pre-modern games which fed into the present day codes, although the extent of their influence is controversial. Grant | Talk 04:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your argument. What do you mean by "all football games"? Do you mean "all games that involve feet and balls"? Or "all cames that anybody in the world has ever called football"? Or "all games that are recognized by some some official body as football"? With any term you can find ambiguity. I tend to believe that, for the encyclopedia to be coherent, it should stick with definitions that are widely used and widely accepted. That is not to say it should be limited only to the single most widely used definition, but it should neither try to include every conceivable definition ever used in the history of mankind (except perhaps to make small mention of some of the alternatives in a small section at the end of the article). I believe the term "football" is widely accepted as referring to the games of English derivation (including the North American game, of course). Although occassionally some similar sports in other cultures are called "football" in very localized circles I have never heard of such a game being widely associated with this term.

Anyway, probably not important enough to make such a big deal about. I am not English, by the way, if it is not obvious from the way I write. I was just trying to be culturally respectful. --Mcorazao 16:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually my dictionary's definition starts with "any game in which the kicking of a ball has a large part". The thing is that saying the games "originated in England" is a very strong statement about games whose earliest history and influences are both complicated and obscured by time. We have to ask did the English forms of football strictly originate in England, or were they derived from games imported from other parts of Europe, even before considering how any effect of Marn Grook on Australian football fits in with such a statement, and so on. JPD (talk) 16:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Mob football probably did not originate in England but nobody knows for sure. The article I think does deal with this. Other than Gaelic and Australian rules, it is quite clear that football games were codified in England or in the case of North American varients were derived from English games. Aussie rules may well have had an English origin (controversial) and at the very least we invented the pitch. There is some suggestion that Gaelic football incorporates English style rules as well.GordyB 17:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The point I was alluding to is that the Irish-Australian "family" of codes has both English and non-English antecedents. I think everyone would agree with that, although the exact antecedents, and the nature of their contributions to each of the family members is controversial.


 * So I think that makes the present statement "Many of the modern games..." concise and correct. Grant | Talk 04:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As to Ozzie Rules, I am pretty sure that upon comparing the first known rules of Melbourne Football Club Rules with its contemporaries in England, notably the 1863 association rules, Cambridge Rules, Rugby rules and Sheffield football club rules, as well as the acknowledgement that the writers of the rules attended the most prestigious English private schools, notably Cambridge college and Rugby school, any sane and rational person would conclude that at least 95% of the original game has its origins solely in England. That is not exactly controversial. As examples, the original goalposts were identical to the goalposts in Cambridge Rules and the original soccer rules, the pitch dimensions (that now to seem to individualise Ozzie Rules) were originally in the dimensions Cambridge Rules, running with the ball was like such in Rugby and the marks were a universal feature of all the football codes at that point in time. There have been a good many innovations since, but I think the establishment of the game was almost entirely and conclusively English. So I therefore think that football of all codes has a finite origin in England(except maybe Gaelic, but I am unconvinced about Gaelic being "caid"). --144.132.216.253 10:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Though the history of the game of Football can be traced back to Europe, the game evolved in the U.S.A. and there is no mention of the advances in the game accredited to Americans.
 * What on Earth are you talking about?GordyB 23:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Further divergence of the two rugby codes

 * With the advent of full-time professionals in the early 1990s, and the consequent speeding up of the game, the five metre off-side distance between the two teams became 10 metres, and the replacement rule was superseded by various interchange rules, among other changes.

Which code is this referring to and is it true? --Philip Baird Shearer 12:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Rugby league (though the first part is only true of England; Australia already had full-time professionalism).GordyB 14:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't be, It was Union that became professional in early nineties. League had been professional in England for decades.  Dainamo 12:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Union went pro in 1995 (about the same time as Super League). Rugby league permitted professionalism but only Wigan and Leeds had the money to be full-time professional; other teams had some pro players and others on part-time contracts.GordyB 14:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me clear that obvious one up. Rugby union paid their players through shamateurism etc. and rugby league with contracts. Neither of them were full time professionals except for mega teams like Brisbane. When Rupert Murdoch started the superleague concept, the payments guaranteed the players full time professionalism across the board for the first time. The NSWRU was forced to act because on this basis they would of lost all of their players as it was the first time that rugby league had the money to put the under threat. So within 2 weeks(from memory, maybe it was a little bit longer) of the super league war breaking out, the NSWRU declared that they were now professionals. Full time professionalism changed how rugby league was played as players were fitter and fitter and replacement rules were used in a more and more complex way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.249.40 (talk) 15:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference to UK
I was intrigued to see that the change from England to UK has passed unchallenged. As far as the UK home countries go I do not think there is much evidence for football development in Wales or Ireland (later NI). Certainly there is a long history of football in Scotland, but the origin of the modern codes was in England (Eton/Harrow/Winchester etc, Cambridge rules, Sheffield rules, football association). Although there were significant scottish players, I believe that their contribution took place within England. I think that it should be changed back to England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footballfan3000 (talk • contribs) August 1, 2007
 * Indeed. I've changed it back to the way it has been since almost the first version of this article. Jooler 07:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * S'funny, I thought England was part of the UK. Or is this post-devolution English nationalism expressing itself? The article is not purely about modern codes and there were many codes/forms of folk/traditional football in Britain before the modern era, quite literally from John O'Groats to Land's End. The public school codes did not spring out of thin air in the 19th century and the older games undoubted influenced them. Grant  |  Talk  08:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The way things are in the UK is that the English are forced to be British; the Scots and Welsh are always Scots and Welsh and the Northern Irish have either a bizarre definition of British or are violently opposed to it. Without looking I can guess that the article on golf will mention that it was invented in Scotland, the UK will not be mentioned. I think the treatment of the sports and constitutnet nations should be equal. If golf, shinty, curling etc are decibed as "Scottish" (and I have no doubts that they will be) then Football ought to be English rather than British.GordyB 12:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Grant. The English public school games gave rise to the rules of most of the modern games which is what the para says. I can't see how this is controversial. If the motive is to be all-encompassing then saying UK leaves out Southern Ireland. Jooler 20:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not at the time that the sentence is referring to. As for the sentence, it is purely about the origin of the modern codes, so the question is whether there was enough non-English influence to mean the statement that "Most fo the modern codes have their origins in England" is not good enough. The difficulty is that it is fairly vague anyway. JPD (talk) 10:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You can't generalise without being vague. It's impossible to make a statement like "all modern codes were started in Coventry on 9 May 1867 just outside the Red Lion pub" because it wouldn't be true.GordyB 11:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course. But the result is that the disagreement is going to be subjective to some extent. JPD (talk) 11:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really, all the major codes can be traced to England (except Gaelic and that's controversial). One can debate the relative contributions of Irish, Aboriginal and English sports to Aussie rules but there definitely is an English contribution.GordyB 13:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think everyone generally agrees with what you have said, even if some would add more. The subjective disagreement is over whether the vague statement "Most of the modern codes have their origins in England" is an appropriate summary. It's not at all black and white what "have their origins" means, let alone "most". JPD (talk) 14:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay that's a bit clearer. I would say that "has their origins in" means that they were codified from games played at private schools which ultimately came from folk forms of football.GordyB 15:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The Term
Please add or correct the following to the introduction:
 * The most popular of these world-wide is association football or "football" for short. The word "football" for association football is used basically in all the countries and languages around the world, including United Kingdom, all far east countries and Arabic countries. The exceptions are North American English and Italy where it is called Soccer and Calcio respectively.

I think is too late to leave the clarification of the term to the "Football Today" section.
 * Please read the article, what you say simply isn't true.GordyB 18:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Blank?
Why is the page blank?

-This article sometimes appears blank Archael Tzaraath 19:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)