Talk:Football/Archive 3

"Most other english speaking countries"
I noticed that my edit was instantly reverted, so I assume that this has been a controversial issue before, and I'll bring it up here. I found that statement slightly incongruous with the rest of the section. It states that "In the United Kingdom, as well as most other English speaking countries, "football" refers to Association Football". However, this is nested in a section that clearly states that Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and US (four very prominent, populous English speaking countries) all use the word to refer to something else. Can this be resolved somewhat? I'm sorry if I'm treading already trodden territory, but it definitely sounds a little odd when you read it in that context. Could this be changed to "many other english speaking countries", or removed entirely? The fact about FIFA is nice, but a little out of place, as most of the other members of FIFA are not "english speaking countries". - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:52, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how many associations are affiliated to FIFA but it's probably over 100. The article quite clearly states:- "Of the 48 national football associations affiliated to FIFA, in which English is an official or primary language, six (Australia, Canada, the Marshall Islands, New Zealand, Samoa and the United States) use "soccer" in their name whilst the rest use "football". " For the details behind this statistic see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Football_%28soccer%29#More_about_the_name_2 Mintguy (T) 20:27, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Ohhh, I thought that it meant that the official or primary language of FIFA was English, because of the comma placement. Thanks for clearing that up. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:13, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * The name of Australia's official football body is called Football Australia. It was once called Soccer Australia but they changed their name. - Yama 11:58, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * It's Football Federation Australia; it's already in the article.Grant65 (Talk) 12:34, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * True, but the name has not even remotely found any widespread use... to any Australian residents, it is clear that soccer is the name for association football. StuartH 21:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, see my comments at the bottom of this page.Grant65 (Talk) 02:57, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Chronology
Well done grant for restoring the order of the article. Mintguy (T) 15:21, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Title for Association Football section
I think that as Americans, New Zealanders and Australians read this page, the title The Football Association should include (soccer) in the title as school children in those countries may not know that "Association Football" is the formal name for the beautiful game. As it stands there is no mention of soccer in the table of contents. Philip Baird Shearer 12:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * The title of that section is called "The Football Association" because it is about the organization called "The Football Association" and not about the sport of Association football. When the FA was founded the word soccer didn't exist and there was no such distinction about there being a speciific sport called soccer. The goal of the Football Association was not to create a distinct game separate from other football games, it was to bring together the disparate rules that existed at the time. Ther other games only existed in formal terms with the creation of specific organizations decicated to following a set of rules distinct from the FA rules. Mintguy (T) 12:34, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What about Fifa?
No history of Association Football is complete without a mention of FIFA and its role in developing the game. A brief mention of history of relationship between FIFA and the home unions should also be included. BTW the start of the FIFA history page is quite elegent and the style would improve this page
 * ''The contemporary history of football spans more than 100 years. It all began in 1863 in England, when rugby football and association football branched off on their different courses and the world's first football association was founded - The Football Association in England. Both forms of football stemmed from a common root and both have a long and intricately branched ancestral tree

Philip Baird Shearer 12:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * This page is intended to be an overview of all sports called football and their shared history. The history of Association Football as a specific sport with official rules begins in 1863 and this is the point at which the article ceases to concentrate on that thread of the history of football. The history of Rugby, the split in the codes, and the development of American football and Canadian football, neccesitate some further detail in those areas, but it is not intended that they should go into these specific areas in great detail. That specific history should be elsewhere. Mintguy (T) 12:49, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If this article is going to be consistent with what you say in the proceeding paragraph, then perhaps the paragraphs in the sections American and Canadian football and Rugby League which refer to developments after 1900 should be moved elsewhere. Philip Baird Shearer 18:52, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Rugby
Why lumped Rugby with North American football? Rugby should be under one section with subsections on Rugby Union and Rugby League. At the moment the events may be in chronological order but most people who wish to know the history of Rugby will find it annoying to have 28+ lines of North American football history in the middle of the history of Rugby.Philip Baird Shearer 12:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There should also be a mention of the: Philip Baird Shearer 12:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * founding of the IRFB - In 1884 England had a disagreement  with Scotland over a try with England arguing that as they made the Law, if they said it was a try then it was. After a messy dispute which pulled in the Irish and Welsh Unions on the side of Scotland, it was agreed with England in 1890 that in future the International Rugby Football Board(IRFB) would oversee the games between the home unions.
 * 1987 New Zealand won the first Rugby Union World Cup competition held in Australia.
 * 1995 Rugby Union became professional
 * 1998 The International Rugby Football Board dropped the 'F' to become the IRB.
 * See above. Mintguy (T)

I think that for clarity integrating and separating the current Rugby text in this article from North American Football (NAF) is desirable. After all the the NAF section not only mentions Rugby but FA rules as well, it also includes dates which pre-date and postdate both! Does anyone have any objections to that? Philip Baird Shearer 19:08, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Although I have been persuaded that post schism history of footable codes, should not be included in this page because of space. I think that removing any mention of the RU/RL schism (and so any mention of Rugby League) is not desirable. Why did you do it User:Grant65? I'm going to restore the change until you explain why. Philip Baird Shearer 11:58, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As said on your talk page, I was in the middle of editing the page, no text has been lost (except repetitions).

By the way, the fact that the Canadian Football League was originally called the Canadian Rugby Football Union, when it was founded in 1884, suggests why the North American codes should be "lumped" with the Rugby codes, but I'm fairly happy with the structure, as long as the chronology is maintained.Grant65 (Talk) 12:29, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * This is an important point. In these early years, some teams played various codes interchangebly. When association football became professional in 1885 many clubs opted to drop playing rugby because it was more lucrative to stick to the asociation code. Mintguy (T) 20:31, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Details on the history and development of specific sports
This is quite a long article and I don't think it should be going into any more detail about specific sports. Those sports have their own pages, and should if neccesary have links to other page which go into the history and development (subsequent to the formalisation of the rules) of those specific sport. I can't think of a catchy title though "Development of association football", for example, sounds a bit naff. Mintguy (T) 13:15, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree with Mintguy, one page can't do everything --- the separate pages on football (soccer), rugby football, rugby union, canadian football, rugby league, Australian rules football, are the right places for an explanation of the development of each code. Football is the place for an explanation of the relationship between the different codes. Grant65 (Talk) 16:38, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think that for most people a detailed history of the sport is of much interest, so only a summary of the history is desirable in the main article of a football code. Details of the history of that code should be on a seperate page. For example: History of association football
 * Early history
 * Playing football has a long tradition in England...
 * Founding of the Football Association

or History of rugby union –– Philip Baird Shearer 18:42, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Poll for modern codes sub-headings to be by code or cronology
At the moment Rugby is a mess (two interpretations edited in at the same time).
 * 1) Should the article be by chronology and then code:
 * 2) * Australian Rules Football
 * 3) * The Football Association
 * 4) * The Rugby Football Union
 * 5) * American and Canadian football
 * 6) * The split in rugby football
 * 7) * The reform of American football
 * 8) * The two rugby codes diverge further
 * 9) * Gaelic football
 * 10) or have one section per code with chronology of events for that code in those sections:
 * 11) * Australian Rules Football
 * 12) * Football Association
 * 13) * Rugby Football
 * 14) * American and Canadian football
 * 15) * Gaelic football

By Chronology
 * Mintguy (T) 20:21, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Grant65 (Talk) 23:44, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

By Code
 * Philip Baird Shearer 17:52, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Comments or other choices

The options in this poll are in alphabetical order. Philip Baird Shearer