Talk:Football chant/Archive 1

Comments
I agree that this page is a mess. As an American the only football chants I hear are in the background of a match on television. When I brought up this page I really thought I would see/read/hear .ogg files of match chants, but all this particular page does is confuse me. I don't think football chants should be shunted off into the "cheering" page as they are such a distinct category. The following are my bitches and I hope the cognoscenti (i.e., the local UK types) can fix.

1) Were I Queen of the Universe, the football song page would always exist but in the "Subheading=tune" form.  "Que Sera, Sera" lends itself to several songs.  As does "When the Saints go Marching In"; as does "Yellow Submarine"; as does a bunch of other chants.  "Posh takes it up the ass" is amusing, but ifI can't pick out the melody line from the crowd while watching England on television, the words are useless.

2) After the "Subheading=tune" section would be a "Subheading=team" section.  For example:  Liverpool fans sing "You'll Never Walk Alone"; "We won it five times" (to the chorus of Sloop John B); and "Liiiiiiii-VER-poooooooooool, LIIIIIIIIIII-ver-poooooool" (with a link to a sound file).

3) Celtic and Spurs both have a song with lyrics that include "And if you know your history WHOA-OH-OH".  I've read the lyrics numerous times, but the only reason I know what that song sounds like is because I watch Lost and that Scottish dude got drunk one night on the show.  That tune seems to be of the "everyone (who lives in the UK) knows it" sort.  Share it with the rest of us.  Pretend, when you're writing this article, that you're writing for someone who had never heard the song before...but for someone who want to know.  "Who ate all the pies" should link to a midi of "knees up mother brown".

4) Not one club page even mentions the idea that football chants exist.  As singing is such an integral part of being a part of the crowd at a football match, that is the ONE place those songs should be.

I am criticizing because I am frustrated. This article, as currently written, appeals to existing fans of the game. I turn to wiki to teach me things I can't experience on my own. I don't have the cash to go to Stamford Bridge or Old Trafford. The great thing about wiki, in this A/V day and age, is that these songs are things that could easily be shared and archived for future fans.

I've got to ask about the accuracy of the claim that the ".... is a wanker" chants are "primarily" Australian as I've been hearing these in the UK for at least the 30 years that I've been attending matches.

I do wonder what sort of sources that "please cite sources" thing on the front page expects. Sure, Posh Spice's autobiography, but beyond that, what? "(see video of Leeds United vs. Milwall, 14 November 1993) ? " 195.170.118.11 13:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Didn't some reasearch a while back show that nearly all chants use the same basic musical sequence - G-F-C or something like that. Nobody seems to know why, it's just wired into us. Interesting, and maybe if somebody knows anything about this it should go in the article. 144.134.229.73 12:01, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

British soccer chants are a lot more varied, mainly because they base the chants on well-known songs - e.g. Amazing Grace ("two-nil,two-nil") DJ Clayworth 16:32, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Has a page been started to record all the chants throughout football? If so where? Surely it will be massive!! Greg321 22:00, 14 July 2005 (UTC)


 * There really aren't that many; in England, the 92 league teams share maybe max 30 or 40 basic songs between them. Sjc 20:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

There are many more than 30 or 40 songs. At Liverpool alone, a considerable part of the Beatles back catalogue has been converted into chants. In total, the number of songs will be closer to a hundred with maybe the 30 or 40 being a reflection of the core chants used. The whole page is awful, it needs scrapping and starting again from scratch. It reads like it was typed out in a ten minute burst after arriving home tipsy from the pub.
 * Yeah; it's one of the worst articles I've seen on Wikipedia.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 15:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Only really Newbie (which may have been cleaned up already) and 2000s (which was a huge article but has now been trimmed down a lot) have been worse articles that I've seen than this one.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 15:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

North American Section
Hey, I just added it to gague intrest, and to list some NA counterparts. If you guys want to remove/discuss it, feel free. Habsfannova 23:14, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's all good, but the title Football chant is no longer appropriate if basketball and baseball (and cricket) are included. I would propose Sports crowd chant, which leaves the problem of the haka, etc, which are performed by the players rather than the crowd. Sports chant? Joestynes 07:07, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This definitely does not belong here. Please move somewhere apposite or I will perform the excision with extreme prejudice :) Sjc 20:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

NB I have removed the Mergeto:Cheering flag on this page. November 4 and more opposed than pro. I would advise that if something has not happened with this North American cheering stuff within a week or so I will remove it. Sjc 20:11, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

In the United States, fight songs are commonly used in college football games.

In the US for the vast majority of MLS Teams (save for maybe DC United), the majority of MLS fans do not even recognize these songs and chants as their own song and chants. For example "Stand By Me" is sung only by a small section of hardcore fans during Red Bull games. This is unlike Europe where often the entire stadium sings a recognized team song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.2.60.95 (talk) 00:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

So this article can only be about chants in soccer; nothing about American college football or East Asian baseball? As mentioned in the section immediately below AFL chants have been added as well; it doesn't seem to make sense to not have something like an Other sports section when these sorts of chants fit better here than in cheering.

I’m fine with basketball and cricket being included for the article for football chant but if it really bothers some of you why not just add the content and move the page accordingly? I concede, though, a possible sticking point; I don’t have a good new name, either. (As it is, though, this page should probably be called English football chants.) —Wiki Wikardo (2¢)

P.P.S. I do see that fight song and ooendan are under the See also section of this page. —Wiki Wikardo 03:05, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Which football?
After a fair vote, Football chant has banished non-soccer chants to cheering (see Talk:Cheering). However, people have been re-adding Australian football chants and others. Some spillover is inevitable: where the same chant has crossed over to/from another sport this should be mentioned. However, there should be some limits: I have changed the pipe-hidden football to the explicit football (soccer) in the intro; might I suggest moving this page to football chant (soccer) to make this doubly clear? More urgently, the category Category:Football songs and chants needs some corresponding rework: jnestorius(talk) 12:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Category:Football songs and chants (soccer)
 * Category:American football songs and chants
 * Category:Australian football songs and chants

PSTIUTA
Didn't "Posh Spice takes it up the arse" - used have its own article? Jooler 22:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed
If anyone has a source for this, it could be a good addition. Otherwise, it looks like a joke. "It is believed that one of the earliest chants was written by Edward Elgar (a fan of Wolverhampton Wanderers). Elgar set the words "He banged the leather for goal!" to music in praise of Wolves player Billy Malpas. Elgar reused the tune in his oratorio Caractacus. It is not thought that his chant was widely used on the terraces." Skittle 13:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've read it before, somewhere... or maybe it was here. Jooler 15:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Google is your friend
 * http://www.webrarian.co.uk/music/football_chant.html
 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/06/01/bmchina01.xml&sSheet=/arts/2006/06/01/ixartleft.html
 * http://football.guardian.co.uk/theknowledge/story/0,13854,1485832,00.html
 * Two newspaper cites are enough I think. Jooler 15:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

English WC06 Chants

 * England till I die, I'm England till I die, I know I am, I'm sure I am, I'm England till I die!
 * He's Big, He's Red, His feet stick out the Bed it's Peter Crouch

The Mystery Song
It's the song you all know, the tune you all know - but I can't find any reference to it! What's the tune to the one that goes "de derrr de de, de derrr de de, dededede de derrr de de". Example lyrics include
 * Your Mum's your Dad,
 * Your Dad's your Mum,
 * You're all inbred,
 * You're Burnley scum

(Apologies to any Burnley fans - as heard sung by Blackburn Rovers fans.) It's used at the cricket when people score a four etc. I need to know the tune and it's sending me bonkers - neither does there appear to be a mention of it on this page, which surely is an ommission. --Gavinio 11:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The song is called Tom Hark.

I know this song as
 * Your Father is your Brother
 * Your Sister is your Mother
 * They Only shag each other
 * The Burnley Family

Vandalism?
Someone's been changing the songs, and as I'm not a football-person, i have no idea if these revisions are true. but some of them seem unlikely, such as colchester's supposed chant of being proud of inbreeding. (Cantras not logged in) 129.186.18.43 04:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually I thought the same, but I wasn't sure either. SportsAddicted | discuss  08:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hartlepool
Hartlepool is not the second most northerly team in England, never mind the UK. Both Sunderland and Newcastle are norther.82.17.167.110 01:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Whats that tune
It would be useful to have a section where people can ask for the tune for a particular Chant. After all - whats a chant with out a tune. So I suggest this section could be used for that. Munta 01:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

More noise in a library
I know the tune but can't put my finger on it - any suggestions? Munta 01:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

This is yet another setting of Guantanamera Scrimsrj 12:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Common chants in the UK
I tagged this section with a cleanup because it is an incoherent, rambling fucking mess. One of the worst-written parts of an article I've seen in ages. It's a free-for-all for anyone just to add their own chant.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 17:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This whole page has become a complete joke. Whilst some of it is reasonable, surely the best way to deal with all of this would be to delete everything that is as described above, a free-for-all of anyone and everyones own chants. Chants that are clearly identifiable should be kept. Tangerines 00:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think a complete rewrite is needed. My knowledge of football chants isn't that good though, so it'd need an expert.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 12:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Waaaay Too long!
This page is long enough to tell the history of the British empire. I'd cut it down to about 10% of the existing article. But please leave in the one about Posh - that's what I searched for when I found this page. :)

In use tag
I have placed this tag on this article as I intend on making an attempt at cleaning up this article. It is to put it bluntly a hell of a mess and full of unsourced content as well as irrelevant content. And it is also missing chants from other countries outside of the UK. There is way too much focus on football chants in the UK. I intend adding details about chants in Argentina as and when I can with sources. Maybe it will be best to have different sections for countries. However, I will have to leave it to others to add chants from other countries ( but I would ask that if doing that it could be done afterward).

One thing that will happen is that quite a bit of content is going to have to be removed. This should be fun. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 01:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Dirty Northern Bastard - rarely if ever done the other way round.

 * "Soft southern bastard" (or "soft southern shite (bag)") perhaps - "dirty southern bastard" - no. Jooler 22:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * - Google it and you just don't find it - 63 hits - The only half-valid reference is an ironic one aimed at David Beckham from fans at Highbury. Jooler 22:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Further to your message in the edit summary, this whole article is *full* of unsourced chants, so stating that I should find a source for one chant when every single chant in the article is unsourced makes little sense. If you want a source for that one chant then you should equally demand one for every other chant, or remove them too for the same reasons. I will be reverting the article back to the previous version, as it is correct. Just because you haven't heard of a chant does not make it any less true. I have been to football matches for over 30 years and have heard hundreds of times, "You dirty Southern bastard", "You dirty Yorkshire bastard" as well as "You dirty Northern bastard" and as well as town/club names being inserted. The article either has to have every single chant sourced or it remains as it is, but stating that one chant needs to be sourced whereas the rest can just remain there unsourced, simply because you have never heard of it? ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 22:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to add that if you actually checked any of those google hits you would find this, which is the first link I clicked on:

http://www.newstatesman.com/200609250044

"During the Chelsea game, Michael Ballack got red-carded and the Liverpool fans were yelling, "Dirty German bastard." Was this racist? I couldn't work up the energy to be outraged.

Then, in the Man United match, when Paul Scholes committed a foul, the Arsenal fans shouted, "Dirty northern bastard." If it had happened the other way round, the Man United fans would have yelled, "Dirty cockney bastard" - although every Arsenal player is foreign."

Also a second link - http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/11/30/poshtastic.php

which includes this comment -

"My local team is Peterborough Utd. A good few seasons back, we played Hayes in the F.A. Cup and Wigan in the league in consecutive weeks. In the first match we were "Dirty northern bastards". In the second, we were "Dirty southern bastards".

Dirty Southern bastards being the chant sung by Wigan fans toward Peterborough fans.

You maintain that it is only ever "Northern" that is used and that any other usage is rare and that it doesn't work the other way around. That New Statesman link and the second link proves that to be incorrect, and that it can be any variation of word used. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 23:06, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * All chants have variations, but you know as well as I do that "Dirty Northern Bastard" is far more common than any other variation. The way the article reads now suggests that they are equally as common and that is a gross misrepresentation of facts. Apart from the ironic version I listed above The Peterborough ref is the only link available that has "dirty southern bastard" in this context it's as rare as hens teeth. Re: Ballack - You're using a single reported instance to suggests that it's a common occurrence. Jooler 23:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This page is amusing and informative, if unencyclopædic. —Wiki Wikardo 20:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite
The page obviously needs rewriting. I'm willing to at least start it, but first it needs to be decided whether it should be sorted by clubs, or in some other way. Personally, I think

--League--

---Club---

But what do people think Bensmith53 01:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. The Gnome (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Club-specific songs & references
This section is troll bait. I propose we limit each club to five core songs. This should prevent the page from getting too large, and make it easier to identify vandalism. smb (talk) 15:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Vandalism continues. No comment on this measure? smb (talk) 03:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that it should be limited to songs/chants that have survived a good number of years, and probably that aren't player-specific (i.e. no "only one ...", etc, etc.). Generic ones should also be avoided, such as "Red/Blue/Yellow Army" or variations on "Oh When The Saints..." (with the exception of Southampton F.C.). Dancarney (talk) 16:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. — eon, 22:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That's the real problem. Whether or not we list five "core" chants per club is very much secondary. Policy states that "[t]he threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" - in other words, it is not enough to list a song because "every X Utd supporter knows it". If it can't be referred to a reliable source (ie not an entirely user-generated forum or the like) then it shouldn't be there. There is no exemption from WP policy for football chants, no matter how interesting! 86.132.138.159 (talk) 19:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The unsourced-section tag has been up long enough. I'll do some trimming this week. Dynablaster (talk) 16:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

This removal by Dynablaster is simply vandalism. You've removed a number of facts and songs that are cited by wikilinks to details on the club song itself. as per Verifiability it is perfectly acceptable to use wikilinks (which are intrinstically supported by cited information if the page linked to exists). For example, you've removed 'Club-specific songs' including Marching On Together discussed as used by Leeds. This is simply unacceptable; deletion of information without goign to find citations and to properly check wikilinks to see if they support a fact is simply laziness. I've rescused what I could - I'd suggest you go back and revise what other damage you've done. Jw2035 (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikilinks are not reliable sources and editors should never adduce internal pages for any material. Open wikis are not acceptable sources (see WP:V). Please copy or find published sources if you wish to re-add the challenged material. Dynablaster (talk) 21:26, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Errr...yes they are, especially when the page which is linked to is heavily referenced.


 * If they wern't, i'd have to reference the name London whenever I discussed the city, just in case someone disputed it's actual name!


 * Examplke sin this case are Marching on Together and Three Lions - "Three Lions" is a song released in 1996, the official anthem of the England football team... is the opening line, hence clearly belongs here!


 * Self-published material as per WP:V has absolutely nothing to do with this; this article contains no songs written by me, neither have I paid to have any of these songs published!


 * Deleting a vast amount of material without checking if citations exist for a stated fact, justified by contortion of a particular technical aspect of verifiablity is not on and can be interpreted as vandalism. Jw2035 (talk) 18:47, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Other Wikipedia articles should not be mistaken for references. If a separate article includes a useful source, then simply copy that source here on this page. Dynablaster (talk) 19:42, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Always Look on the Bright Side of Life
This ought to be included, surely. - Richard Cavell (talk) 02:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The bouncy
The bouncy isn't a Rangers specific chant. It is used by all protestent groups in the British Isles against Catholic oppopnents.

For example, recently the Northern irish fans used the bouncy on the Polish fans in the world cup qualifier.

thelastone36 (talk) 01:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

clean-up
Tomorrow I'm cleaning up this article. One, this is heavily biased towards Man United just by the fact that they have some songs randomly included, obviously by some fan. Like the Park song, why is that just its own paragraph. Its clumsily written too. The examples section is extremely messy and I'm going to cut all clubs down to a maximum of three. I'm also going to do a section for songs that aren't specific to a particular club, there are some songs listed for one club that many others sing, or worse, they stole from a smaller club who aren't constantly on Sky Sports so no-one knows about it. I'll try and keep my club prejudices out of it, as long as everyone else does, as it's clearly not the case at the moment. 109.175.141.124 (talk) 19:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

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