Talk:For-profit higher education in the United States/Archive 1

Reliable sources?
The article contains the following as references: A book review, a YouTube video of a TV show, what appears to be an unpublished Master's thesis, and at least one blog. Some discussion should be had to determine if these meet the requirements of Identifying reliable sources. Bahooka (talk) 19:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Our colleague who has added those references has already stated that he or she is "not here to make friends, but to make entries that will be helpful in the democratization of education" so I'm not surprised that he or she has continued to blithely add unreliable sources that support his or her point of view to articles. I've tried to guide him or her to relevant policies and advice but it doesn't seem to have done much.  It's frustrating because it would be incredibly helpful if someone were to add some of the material that he or she adding because it is important but it's not helpful if that someone is carelessly adding any and all information that paints these institutions in a negative light without regard for our policies and community norms.  At a minimum, this is creating a lot of work for others who will have to monitor and clean up these messes. ElKevbo (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Mr. Guidry, why don't you ask scholars (such as historians and historical sociologists) who use popular culture materials like this as primary sources? Dahnshaulis (talk) 21:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * (It's Dr. Guidry if you insist on formality.) I use primary sources in my research all of the time.  This is not a venue for original research.
 * Dahnshaulis, I'm very sorry if you think that we're being unfair or unreasonable. But this is a large, cooperative project and there are indeed specific and general ways in which we have agreed to contribute to this project, shape its content, and interact with one another.  If you don't agree with them then you're welcome to try to change them.  But you're not welcome to simply ignore them and continue to muck up things.  You can continue to work on the issues about which you are passionate but you must do so professionally and collegially.  ElKevbo (talk) 21:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Republic Report has been used in some citations. Please note that I have taken that to Reliable sources/Noticeboard for others to weigh in on its acceptability as a reference. Dahnshaulis, you may want to join the discussion there as you are the one adding the reference. Bahooka (talk) 21:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

That's fine. David Halperin is a lawyer in Washington, D.C. and documents his sources very well. Please let me know of the status if it changes. Dahnshaulis (talk) 21:43, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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For-profit higher education in the US needs to be expanded to include private student loans and income share agreements
Although for-profit colleges have experienced significant declines, for-profit mechanisms in higher education need to be mentioned. I have included a section on for-profit online program managers, which has been receiving lots of attention. But other for-profit schemes should be included, such as private student loans and human capital contracts or income share agreements. While human capital contracts are relatively small now, Purdue University has started a program.. Private student loans are also small compared to federal loans, but that could change. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 12:33, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite needed
In my opinion, For-profit higher education in the United States has suffered from small edits and additions so that it is no longer encyclopedic. The article is at the upper bound of reasonable size. The lede is no longer a summary, but a story in itself. My suggestion is the the lede be edited to four paragraphs from ten. History would be an appropriate first section; that would establish the context for the rest of the article. The structure of single-sentence paragraphs is not helpful, except to support the citations. It should be the other way around.

Yes, there is an NPOV issue in the article. I suggest that the arguments opposing and in favor of for-profit institutions be grouped. For example, there is no particular reason that lobbying needs to stand on its own in the second section, except that it is an implicit assertion of malfeasance.


 * Lede
 * Definition and contrast with non-profit education
 * History
 * Origin (candidate for deletion)
 * 1940s onward
 * 2009 onward


 * Organization
 * Financial
 * Promotion
 * Regulation and investigations
 * Political advocacy
 * Transition to non-profit


 * Successes (section name subject to argument)
 * Failures (section name subject to argument)
 * School closures
 * Default rate


 * List of schools and chains
 * Other back matter

A reader would benefit from an exposition of the difference between for-profit and not-for-profit schools. That is necessary context.

The lede describes higher education. Many of the organizations listed are in the secondary education business. That is a distinct topic. The number of red links needs to dealt with. The schedule for work should start with the lede and then the section headers. Then the text can be edited.

Chime in with ideas before I get elbows-deep in this topic. Rhadow (talk) 15:25, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll buy you a beer or cook you dinner if you can whip the history section into shape. I understand how we often end up with these history sections that just a list of "On, " with no connection or synthesis; it's easy for well-meaning editors to add this material one-at-a-time.  And without sufficient secondary (and beyond) sources it's difficult for responsible editors to synthesize this information.  (If I were to try my hand at this, I'd look for a few good sources that explicitly and clearly talk about the history of this field and see if I could use some of the material in the existing section as examples or highlights.  I'm not an expert in this particular area so I don't have any specific sources to recommend except possibly Lower Ed: The Troubling Rise of For-Profit Colleges in the New Economy; I know there are other good, scholarly sources if you look for them!) ElKevbo (talk) 17:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * AJ Angulo is most authoritative and scholarly source I have read on the history of for-profit higher education.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 10:56, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

COI and Sockpuppetry of User:CollegeMeltdown
I got suspicious about the edits of this user and decided to do some research. A quick Google search with the user's username revealed (first Google search result) that there is a blog of exactly the same title (i.e. College Meltdown) dealing with exactly the same topics this user is editing on. Behind the blog is an activist who has been campaigning and ranting against private schools and for-profit education in general for years. The more one googles and researches the blog and its owner, the more it becomes evident that there is an obvious conflict of interest. Further research revealed that user CollegeMeltdown has already edited on Wikipedia on the exactly same topics in the past under his real name and was blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing (see here: []). Needless to say: A clear case of conflict of interest, sockpuppetry and block evasion as per WP:COI, WP:SOCK and WP:BE. 194.230.155.111 (talk) 17:30, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Not commenting here on the content of the COI argument, but this would get more response at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard.Dialectric (talk) 18:41, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

For-profit higher education in the US needs major edits
For-profit higher education in the US has been changing a great deal. While for-profit colleges have shown major declines in enrollment since 2010-2011, other for-profit businesses have been growing, particularly at state colleges and universities. I suggest that we carefully delete some information about for-profit colleges, keeping what's historically most important, so we can better highlight the other growth trends (e.g. OPMs, campus services, privatized housing, endowment managers, private lending). CollegeMeltdown (talk) 13:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Need a major revision of "Drawbacks." Lots of good detail but out of proportion. Can anyone help with paring down this section?CollegeMeltdown (talk) 12:47, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

The section "Government scrutiny, criminal and civil investigations" also needs a careful paring down.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 12:57, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * , nine months later and not much has been done to pare down the "Drawbacks" section. Is there anyone who can help pare this down dramatically?  CollegeMeltdown (talk) 16:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Revert to around October 2018?
This article has become more rather than less of a mess over the past two years. For example, the prior basic definition of a for-profit college was straightforward and accurate, while the newer description throws in a list of ways that colleges use for-profit companies (which is not the same as being a for-profit company). I want to make some edits but I am inclined to first revert to a prior version. Any thoughts before I do that? Mastimido (talk) 11:57, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No thank you. This article is not about the formal definition of a for-profit college or university but, as the title implies, for-profit higher education in the U.S. broadly construed. We can certainly discuss the material that has been added in the previous couple of years but a blanket deletion would be highly inappropriate and unhelpful for readers. ElKevbo (talk) 15:28, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You might have an opinion on this. ElKevbo (talk) 15:30, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Mastimido For-profit colleges are waning, but for-profit higher education is not. What did you plan to delete and for what reason?CollegeMeltdown (talk) 17:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses, if I make edits I will start with the current version.
 * Mastimido how about paring down the "Drawbacks" section?CollegeMeltdown (talk) 17:01, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Blurring of lines between profit and nonprofit

 * Mastimido great work on adding important historical information (about University of Chicago) to the lede in this article. Hope we can continue to collaborate and add more historical background to the article, showing this blurring between non-profit and for-profit in US higher education over the centuries. Is there a place for including Upton Sinclair's "The Goose Step"? Any thoughts about including Clayton Christensen and the Harvard Business School to the story? CollegeMeltdown (talk) 13:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Sport$?


I noticed that Derek Bok mentioned sports in his book on the higher ed marketplace. Is there anyone opposed to including a brief section on the commodification of college sports? CollegeMeltdown (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. I think mentioning the Knight Commission or at least following the threads of some of their work and reports to other prominent views and documents would be appropriate and helpful. ElKevbo (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree, makes sense.Mastimido (talk) 01:13, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

As for-profit college influence wanes and for-profit mechanisms peak
I propose that we reduce the redundancy and details of for-profit colleges in order to put more emphasis on for-profit mechanisms across US higher education. This change has been developing faster since the late 1970s and has resulted in other changes, including the role and power of management (e.g. number in management versus number of tenured faculty, executive compensation), the value of labor (from star professors to adjuncts of all kinds, including post docs), the increased importance of marketing and advertising, and the diverse role of the institutions themselves (e.g. doing corporate biomedical and technical research). --CollegeMeltdown (talk) 13:39, 2 March 2021 (UTC)