Talk:Forensic anthropology

Inexact
Something should be added about how the race determination is becoming obsolete or pointless. It's generalization about where ancestors came from...I dunno. I heard several lectures about this, but mostly what stuck in my head was something about diaspora. Ductapedaredevil 16:41, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, ancestry determination is a very vital part of Forensic Anthropology. Sustentacular 00:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)sustentacular

I agree with Ductapedaredevil on racial determination becoming obsolete. Seeing as race is a cultural construct, not a physical manifestation, a skull is not an accurate portrayal of one's ethnic heritage. Jlskiba (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)jlskiba 4:39, 2 November 2010

The idea of discrete races is a cultural construct, however, there is no denying that individuals with similar ancestral backgrounds (note, ancestry and ethnicity are different things) have similar skeletal features, most notably in the skull. Since "race" is something that society continually uses to describe people it stands to reason that when providing a biological profile to help identify a decedent that at least a vague racial category should be provided when possible. Not in the interest of perpetuating the idea of discrete races but to aid in the identification of unknown skeletal remains. Sustentacular 7:31 2 November 2010 (UTC)sustentacular


 * What are the best current sources on the issue? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 23:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

http://www.physanth.org/association/position-statements/biological-aspects-of-race/ Sustentacular 8:51 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Sustentacular. - Boneyard90 (talk) 22:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Notable Forensic Anthropologists
I have added some FA's whose absence was glaringly obvious - Suchey and Brooks being the main ones. I also think that because there are so many Diplomates on the ABFA website that we should move away from chronological order and into alphabetical order - anyone object???

I also think we should include FA worldwide - maybe mentioning the role of FA in ICTY?

to whoever: please stop adding faafs to jerry melbye's name. the majority of the people on that list are aafs fellows, theres no need to add it to just his name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theanatomist (talk • contribs) 12:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Notability is decided by the wikipedia standards. We cannot include all notable forensic anthropologists, or even establish particular criteria fr what makes a forensic anthropologist notable - for this reason we will have to limit to forensic anthropologists that have articles, just like we do in all other lists.·Maunus· ƛ · 01:05, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Additions
I intend to add a section regarding techniques used when i have a minute to scan in some pics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theanatomist (talk • contribs) 09:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Carlos Zambrano?
I am just here to find out about Forensic Anthropology, but in the first paragraph it read: " One of the leading Forensic anthropologist today is Carlos Zambrano who is one of the inspirations behind the thrilling TV series Bones."

Shouldn't it be Kathy Reichs?

And the link to Carlos Zambrano brings me to a baseball pitcher. His age was also stated as (1700-2008).

I wonder if there is really such a notable forensic anthropologist, or did someone edit the page by mistake. I'll leave it to the experts. Okami ningen83 (talk) 05:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a joke, don't worry about it. ~ Sustentacular (talk) 23:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)sustentacular

Reliable secondary sources on this subject?
Does anyone have a citations to validation studies on how well forensic antropologists actually categorize discovered skulls or other human remains in tests with human remains of known provenance? I see the article is tagged as needing more sources, and this is one important issue related to the topic of the article. More generally, are there sources like those listed on the Anthropology and Human Biology Citations page, posted in userspace for all wikipedians to share, that have to do with the specifically forensic issues in anthropology? You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human genetics to edit them according to the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 03:14, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Late response, I know, but I thought I ought to respond to this..first, would like to clarify that forensic anthropology is not really about human genetics per se. The methods are focused only on physical characteristics of human skeleton. While DNA can sometimes be extracted from a skeleton, and the anthropologist might perform some of the extraction steps, they would not be the ones conducting any genetic analysis.


 * Regarding MEDRS - as forensic anthropology has practically nothing to do with medicine - even identifying pathologies based on skeletal indications, this aspect of pathologies is not covered in medical publications because those in the medical field don't work with skeletal remains of deceased humans - there's absolutely no possible way that MEDRS could ever be applied to forensic anthropology. There is nothing contained in MEDRS sources that relates to forensic anthropology. Just as you would not require all law related articles to be sourced with journals on botany. Firejuggler86 (talk) 14:19, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

List of anthropologists
Look, at wikipedia we have WP:V which requires that every piece of information is verifiable and sourced to reliable source. If information is not soiurced to a reliable source then it can be removed on sight. I am removing these names 1. because it is not sourced that they are forensic anthropolgists. 2. because it is not sourced that they are notable. In wikipedia notable of academics is determined by the criteria WP:ACADEMICS if you can supply a source that shows that each of these names are notable according to WP:ACADEMIC then the names can be included even if they don't have an article. ·Maunus· ƛ · 02:32, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Globalize
The narrative and examples are almost entirely from the U.S. It would be good to expand the coverage to the rest of the world. Cusop Dingle (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Notable forensic anthropologists
This list seems in bad shape. I can find no indication in the articles concerned that the following were forsensic anthropologists: Thomas Dwight, Aleš Hrdlička, Earnest Hooton, Wilton M. Krogman, Kewal Krishan. Are there any references to support this list? Cusop Dingle (talk) 16:53, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Globalize/North America tag
As others have mentioned before, the article is almost entirely about the USA and Canada. It needs to be expanded to cover other countries and continents and represent the subject globally. Otherwise I suggest moving the article to a title of Forensic anthropology in North America. FonsScientiae (talk) 21:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

A move is premature and unnecessarily divisive. I agree that the article would benefit from more information regarding the field's history and application in other countries. To that end I would add:

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Boneyard90 (talk) 00:12, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would love to edit but unfortunately I am not an expert on the field. I do not understand why a move would be divisive till there is more global information. FonsScientiae (talk) 17:56, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would like to add on to it, but I'm pressed for time with non-Wiki matters at the moment, and besides, what knowledge I have concerns the US anyway, though I understand that Guatemala and Chile have respectable forensic departments now. The move you want to make would be divisive, or rather polarizing, because anybody searching for "Forensic anthropology" would be directed to a page titled "Forensic anthropology in North America", suggesting that the entire field of FA was synonymous with FA in NA. As it is, we have an incomplete article, rather than a hijacked subject. Boneyard90 (talk) 19:00, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right and I never questioned that forensic anthropology existed in other countries. The NA tag has to remain for the current version till you or someone else adds on more global material. As for mentioning 'race' twice in the article I have some objections. The AAA has released an official statement years ago: "During the past 50 years, 'race' has been scientifically proven to not be a real, natural phenomenon. More specific, social categories such as 'ethnicity' or 'ethnic group' are more salient for scientific purposes and have fewer of the negative, racist connotations for which the concept of race was developed. (...) Eventually these [racial] classifications must be transcended and replaced by more non-racist and accurate ways of representing the diversity of the U.S. population."(source) The term 'race' in Canada is not used, Canada classifies people according to ethnicity and membership of 'visible minority'. As for other countries, 'race' is either not used or has completely different meaning than in then USA. For example in Europe, where I live, it is strongly associated with laws proclaimed by the Nazi and Fascist governments in Europe during the 20th century. Reading this article an international audience may think that the term is scientifically well-founded and that it is used globally within the field as a legitimate concept. I believe using a more neutral word 'ethnicity' or 'population group' would be more appropriate. FonsScientiae (talk) 19:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Physical anthropologists were voted down at that AAA meeting 50 years ago. Some physical anthropologists retained usage of the term "race" for much of that time, though it has become an increasingly contentious issue, and many phys. anthropologists, in my opinion, have become worn down by the other fields. There are still a minority that say that "racial research" is not "racist research". There is also research to suggest many "racial" traits found in the bones came from faulty research, but the reports are fairly few, and there is an obvious agenda behind them. Many forensic anthropologists still call it "race", some use the same tables to determine "race" but then call it something else ("ancestral background", for example). There is the similar problem with sex versus gender. The latter is proclaimed by the individual and is culturally constructed (a transvestite may identify as a "woman", for example), but the bones tell me the sex is "male". But to return to the issue, yes, the "race" concept is problematic here in the US, and is associated with racist laws and social discrimination, mostly (I hope) in the past. As for the article, "ethnicity" isn't quite right because that incorporates language and culture, which of course you can't tell from bones. Would you prefer to substitute "race" with "predominant geographical ancestry"? Boneyard90 (talk) 01:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be perfect. Or what do you think about just "geographic ancestry", "ancestral population", or "geographical phenotype"? As I know concepts as 'pure' and 'mixed' ancestry are problematic to work with as each person has different degrees of ancestry from different geographic areas so adding 'predominant' to the term may be necessary. Please use a term which you feel mostly suits its usage here. FonsScientiae (talk) 20:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok, I'll look over the article and see if I can make some changes in the next day or two.Boneyard90 (talk) 03:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, so can you please make the modifications which we have agreed on? FonsScientiae (talk) 08:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, of course. Terribly sorry about the delay. I made modifications to all points where "race" was discussed, besides trying to generally clean it up. Once I took a look, I realized the format was a bit of a mess. Hope that takes care of the article, at least until someone with broader knowledge on an international scope can come along and add to it. Boneyard90 (talk) 12:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Fictional anthropologists?
I notice that someone has added Temperance "Bones" Brennan to the list of notable anthropologists. Do we have any feeling or policy here about adding fictional characters to a list of notable people? --MelanieN (talk) 18:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I saw that too, was about to remove it, but then paused as not sure. I don't know if there is a policy or guideline that suggests one way or the other but it needs at least to be clearly delineated as a fictional character. There are also two others listed as notable but are red links...so until those articles exist, perhaps they should be removed.--MONGO 18:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find any guideline. I was also not sure about Bones, but she might well be more notable than many real-life scientists. My hunch is to keep her but flag her as fictional. As to the red links, I agree and will remove them.--MelanieN (talk) 19:23, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The appropriate guideline is at "In popular culture" content. Many articles do contain a "Cultural references" section, and "Bones" along with any other forensic anthropologists in movies, books, video games, or TV shows would go there. - Boneyard90 (talk) 15:07, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I hope no-one minds, but I took the liberty of making the change. However, I can't think of any other forensic anthropologists in pop culture. I don't watch C.S.I or some of the other police dramas, and while I'm sure at least one Law & Order episode must have had a F.A., I can't think of the episode(s). - Boneyard90 (talk) 15:14, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that is the perfect solution. --MelanieN (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that information on forensic archaeology be merged into this page. Forensic archaeology is a recognized subfield of forensic anthropology and the forensic archaeology section on this page already has most of the information contained in the forensic archaeology article anyways. Including the small amount of other information present on the forensic archaeology article on this page shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't cause any undue weight issues. --Stabila711 (talk) 03:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Early history - pseudoscience
I think this sentence in the "Early history" section needs to be rewritten. I agree that phrenology is a pseudoscience, but this sentence is overly broad because Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder has specific physical characteristics and is associated with higher than average levels of criminal behavior. See http://fasdcenter.samhsa.gov/documents/WYNK_Criminal_Justice5.pdf and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10533996 Waters.Justin (talk) 02:24, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * "Now considered a pseudoscience, criminal anthropologists believe that certain criminal behaviors can be linked to specific physical characteristics."
 * Criminal anthropology was based on physical characteristics and the sentence makes sure to make that distinction. The shape of the head, the size of the hands, the distance between the pupils of the eyes, things like that is what criminal anthropologists focused on. Criminal anthropology is a mix of phrenology and physiognomy with the rest of the body thrown in. FASD is a mental disorder and neither of those articles mentions how their physical characteristics would increase their propensity to criminal activity. They focus more on the lack of impulse control and behavioral issues caused by the disorder. Do you have an idea on how you would like to reword the sentence? --Majora (talk) 04:51, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe something like this. "Now considered a pseudoscience, criminal anthropologist believed phrenology and physiognomy could link a person's character and behavior to specific physical characteristics. Waters.Justin (talk) 03:33, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I tweaked it a little but I changed it to add wikilinks to phrenology and physiognomy. Thoughts? --Majora (talk) 20:33, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That looks good. Waters.Justin (talk) 21:41, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

An old section, but regarding the above, it should be mentioned that the field of phrenology and criminal anthropology and the assessing of an individual's propensity for crime by studying physical characteristics, in fact has gotten a new scientifically supported boost from China, with the help of AI. By feeding ID photos of convicted criminals and noncriminal citizens into AI and machine learning algorithms, they were able to identify certain facial features that predict criminality. The program identified those with a criminal record with 89.51 percent accuracy.

I quote:

"Automated Inference on Criminality using Face Images

Xiaolin Wu Shanghai Jiao Tong University

Xi Zhang Shanghai Jiao Tong University zhangxi

Abstract

''We study, for the first time, automated inference on criminality based solely on still face images. Via supervised machine learning, we build four classifiers (logistic regression, KNN, SVM, CNN) using facial images of 1856 real persons controlled for race, gender, age and facial expressions, nearly half of whom were convicted criminals, for discriminating between criminals and non-criminals. All four classifiers perform consistently well and produce evidence for the validity of automated face-induced inference on criminality, despite the historical controversy surrounding the topic. Also, we find some discriminating structural features for predicting criminality, such as lip curvature, eye inner corner distance, and the so-called nose-mouth angle. Above all, the most important discovery of this research is that criminal and non-criminal face images populate two quite distinctive manifolds. The variation among criminal faces is significantly greater than that of the non-criminal faces. The two manifolds consisting of criminal and non-criminal faces appear to be concentric, with the non-criminal manifold lying in the kernel with a smaller span, exhibiting a law of normality for faces of non-criminals. In other words, the faces of general law-biding public have a greater degree of resemblance compared with the faces of criminals, or criminals have a higher degree of dissimilarity in facial appearance than normal people.''" https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.04135v1.pdf

This was also reported on many news sites, among other the following; https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/facial-features-really-can-give-a-criminal-away-tsjwcs6xf

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/11/24/minority-report-style-ai-learns-predict-people-criminals-facial/

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d7ykmw/new-program-decides-criminality-from-facial-features Okama-San (talk) 19:12, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

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Recent revisions
Just so everyone is clear what is going on here because there seems to be some confusion. An IPv6 address removed a valid, referenced, notable forensic anthropologist, Kathy Reichs, because they didn't like it. They replaced this with William M. Bass. They did not include a reference. I'm fully aware of who Bass is. When I rewrote this article I could not find a good enough reference for him showing exactly why he is notable. I know he is notable. But I couldn't find a reference as I was writing this article. So I left him off. If someone can find a valid reference for Mr. Bass please feel free to add him. But don't remove lines from the table because you don't like Ms. Reichs. She is a notable forensic anthropologist and she belongs in that table. --Majora (talk) 21:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

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Unreliable Sources on "Ancestry"
The first paragraph under 'Determination of ancestry' seems very dubiously sourced. It looks like the first source is an online activity designed specifically for grades 6-11 and not meaningfully updated since 2006. The second source is an archived link to an obscure high school worksheet no longer online. The third is part of another teaching resource, this time for elementary grades – it's an activity sheet related to a webcomic. Nuwio (talk) 18:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)