Talk:Forests of the Iberian Peninsula

Untitled
Are these really forests of the Iberian Peninsula? It seems to be something more like "vegetation regions" or "ecosystems" or something of that sort, as many of them don't really fit the definition of "forest". --Delirium 23:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Another editor has used the term "woodlands" when discussing the SPATRAnom. It seems to fit, so I'm using it. -Fsotrain09 23:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

forgot to fill in edit summary
Sorry folks! got carried away and forgot to fill in the edit summary. Have tried to make some headway in the translation.--Technopat 15:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

query
Cannot find any reference either in Spanish or in English to Yebela - I suppose it refers to various mountains named Djebel in the Saharan Atlas Mountains. Any feedback? --Technopat 15:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

please bear with me
I can only participate in this in a rough and ready way, as I do not at present have access to my dictionaries. But as it is still at the rough translation stage, and anything is better than nothing (?), I hope you will bear with me. Thanx. --Technopat 17:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

another query
From Wikipedia: The European Black Pine Pinus nigra (generally called Black Pine in Europe), is a variable species of pine, occurring across southern Europe from Spain to the ...

So how do we translate Pinus uncinata (Pino negro)? --Technopat 19:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Right folks, this gets complicated:

A)
 * Pinus nigra = pino laricio (can grow to a height of up to 50m and live 500-600 years). It is known by different names in different parts of Spain.
 * pino salgareño - Andalusia
 * pino negral - Guadalajara, Cuenca, Teruel & Castellón
 * pino pudio/ampudio - Soria, Burgos & Sierra de Guadarrama
 * pino cascalbo - Ávila
 * pino albar, blanco, nasarre & nazarrón - Huesca

(and different variations of pi in Catalunya); and

B)
 * Pinus uncinata = pino negro (grows to about 25m)

OK, that's for starters. I'l try to get round to making the corresponding modifications in the text later (this year). Regards, Technopat 13:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

setos
Read somewhere hidden in the text someone's doubt as to the best way to translate "setos" - any objections to "shrubs and bushes"? - --Technopat 01:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds fine. Long after the above comment I've put in "hedgerows", since the text seems to have that meaning of a line left at the edge of a field. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:32, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

sorry for not edit summarising
Nasty thunder & lightning storm here and wanted to save page before losing it all! --Technopat 02:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Totally understandable in those circumstances, given the amount of data being saved. Thank you so much for your efforts, Technopat! -Fsotrain09 03:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

piorno - piornales
Any feedback on this one, folks? I reckon that this is the one, but I can't confirm it:

Fabaceae
 * 1) Cytisus estilo enrrollado.

* Cytisus purgans (L.) Boiss., piorno * Cytisus scoparius (L.) Link, retama de escobas, escobones;


 * 1) Colutea

* Colutea hispanica (L.) Boiss., piorno, espantalobos. Arbusto de ramas verdes. Hojas alternas, pinnadas. Flores papilionáceas amarillas. Frutos en legumbres globosas con paredes membranosas y translúcidas. Al secarse las semillas quedan sueltas, produciendo sonidos al ser mecidas por el viento.

Will try to follow it up over time, but if anyone else out there knows these things ... . Thanx. --Technopat 08:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

To Cap or not to cap
Am slightly confused: wikipedia articles on trees quite clearly capitalise the initial letters of the first two names of a tree. So far, have only come across plants and shrubs etc. wherein only the first word of the name is capitalised. Is this a biology/botany convention. I was slightly confused in the first place when I came across the two caps for trees but started to edit accordingly. Now I'm not so sure. In Latin it's clear, but for English names ...? Feedback, please. (I'm sure there must be summat 'bout this in wiki style sheets, but haven't time to check right now). Thanx. --Technopat 19:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * There is Naming conventions (flora). I would ask this stylistic question on its talk page. -Fsotrain09 20:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC).... Just saw this, from WP:TOL: "Names of genera are always italicized and capitalized— Homo, Rosa, Saccharomyces. Species epithets are always italicized and preceded by the name of the genus or an abbreviation of it— Homo sapiens or H. sapiens, but never plain sapiens, since such identifiers need not be unique. They are never capitalized.

Names of higher taxa are capitalized but not italicized— Hominidae, Mammalia, Animalia." Hope this helps. -Fsotrain09 20:32, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Many thanx for your suggestions. It's clear in the case of Latin names, genera, etc. Have decided, tentatively at least, and for want of any clearer guidelines, to "cap" both words in the English name of the tree when it has a wikilink (as these tend to do so) and just cap the first part of the name when it appears later in the article and without a wikilink. As for other plants, I'm just "capping" the first word in the name. With common or garden shrubs etc., such as heather, thyme, etc., I don't reckon we should "cap" any of them, should we? But I'm easy and will (probably) follow the majority opinion on this issue. Regards, Technopat 23:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

beechwoods vs beech forests
Sorry folks, Undid my previous edit. I had come across a reference in an index to beechwoods and rushed off to edit this page. The other 300-odd references in the same book only use the term beech forest! --Technopat 10:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Need for a bilingual biologist
After seeing Jmabel's edit summary comment that perhaps a bilingual biologist would need to look at the article in order to polish the translation, I'm considering adding the article to Category:Pages needing expert attention from Biology experts. I figure, instead of any of us searching for editors fitting the two criteria, listing the article there will alert people with the content expertise, and then those with the language skills will self-select. Any objections? -Fsotrain09 03:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Good idea! I was beginning to get too emotionally attached to this article and it was getting so I couldn't see the wood for the trees! It's been fun collaborating with you folk - maybe we'll meet up at another article some time/place. If anyone has any answers to my doubts above, please respond. Long life to Wikipedia (and its Wikipedians)! Cheers, --Technopat 23:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

detective work
Have just come across the following link to Nature which helps clarify at least some of the doubts that have cropped up over oaks:



Will try to find time to apply some of the things it brings up. Regards to all. --Technopat 23:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

tile works - deleted
The Tejera Negra refers to a region of small "hamlets" (for want of a smaller denomination) to the northeast of Madrid and in the northwest of the neighbouring province of Guadalajara. Their main characteristic is their construction of stone and slate - hence tejera negra (black [roof] tiles). Have also included the reference to the other neighbouring beech forest in Guadalajara, as the tourist offices of the two regions both claim to have Europe's southernmost beech forest (basically divided down the middle by the river or mountain - don't remember which - that separates the two provinces/autonomous comunities, or whatever). I hope this ain't what is meant by original research! Regards, Technopat 10:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

added external link
Have just come across the following excellent English-language external link - might be of great use in perfecting the article page at this stage. Highly recommendable. Regards, --Technopat 12:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

This might be worth an external link, too: Plant Conservation in Spain

What remains to be done
Prior to asking someone with expert knowledge to make a real pass through this:
 * There are probably some places for which there are distinct English-language placenames.
 * We need to go through and look for overlinks, underlinks, etc., because the Spanish-language Wikipedia is simply less careful about this.
 * There are several words and phrases that still need translation; please add to this list if I have missed anything:
 * aciculas [DONE]
 * Aha! In context, it has to be the needles of evergreens; I never knew the Spanish for that. - Jmabel | Talk 01:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice one, Jmabel! --Technopat 12:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * aligustres [DONE]
 * says "Ligustrum vulgare L.". says that is "common privet, European privet".
 * almohadillados, obviously something other than the literal meaning in the contexts used
 * From Technopat's suggestions below, "hummocks" would be a good choice. - Jmabel | Talk 01:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC) [DONE]
 * artos [DONE]
 * Per Technopat below, "blackthorns" - Jmabel | Talk 01:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Bosque aclarado: from the context, it clearly does not mean what we mean in English by a "cleared forest" or "cleared woods"
 * carrasca [DONE]
 * Apparently, like encina, this is Quercus ilex L.
 * compuestas
 * cornejos [DONE]
 * (a Geocities site, but I'd bank on it) says Cornus sanguinea. The BBC says that is "common dogwood".
 * encina arbustiva [DONE]
 * says Q. ilex subsp. ballota. A.k.a. Q. ballota, Q. rotundifolia,Q. ilex subsp. rotundifolia, Q. avellaniformis, Q. ilex auct. says that's a Holm Oak. - Jmabel | Talk 01:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * endorreicas [DONE]
 * At least a good clue at es:Cuenca endorreica, which begins "En geografía, una cuenca endorreica es un área en la que el agua no tiene salida superficialmente, por ríos, hacia el mar."
 * Per Technopat below, cuenca endorrieca (I assume that's endorreica) = "Endorheic basin" - Jmabel | Talk 01:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * escobonales; we right now have "los piornales o escobonales dominando genus Teline."
 * I can make a pretty good guess, because una escoba is a broom (in the sense of one used for sweeping)... - Jmabel | Talk 01:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * [DONE] - common broom (a.k.a. retama negra, escoba negra) - Cytisus scoparius - --Technopat 22:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * guillomos [DONE]
 * says "Amelanchier ovalis MED." says that is variously called "garden Serviceberry, Grapepear, Juneberry, snowy Melspilus".
 * lentiscales [DONE]
 * es:Pistacia lentiscus: Lentisco is apparently another name for Pistacia lentiscus (mastic). - Jmabel | Talk 01:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * majuelos [DONE]
 * Per Technopat below, "hawthorns" - Jmabel | Talk 01:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * melojares [DONE]
 * Pyrenean Oaks, we already got this elsewhere, but I'd spaced it out. - Jmabel | Talk 01:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * mesetas: maybe just leave this word? At least in American English, it is used.
 * pino negro (Pinus uncinata)
 * piornales / piornales serranos / piornos
 * See Technopat's remarks below on piornos - Jmabel | Talk 01:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * pluvinulares
 * I suspect this just means they get a lot of rain. pluvio = lluvio. For once, knowing Romanian comes in handy (Romanian for "it's raining" is ploa. French, now that I think of it, is pluie). - Jmabel | Talk 06:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * quejigar
 * relictos, not sure what this means with reference to soil.
 * sabinares
 * is a pretty good Spanish-language definition, but still no English-language word. - Jmabel | Talk 06:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * serbales
 * Genus sorbus (see es:Sorbus), but I can't readily tell from that article whether the term can mean the whole genus are is more, well, specific. Serbal de cazadores is Sorbus aucuparia (rowan or mountain ash). This page suggests that it may refer to several, but not all, species of that genus. - Jmabel | Talk 06:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia gives European Rowan for Sorbus aucuparia and my source gives serbales as any Sorbus growing isolated inside forests formed by other trees. Technopat 01:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * setos, which clearly does not mean "hedges" in this context
 * Also, a few passages are still largely untranslated:
 * "Over limestone soils menos lavados it is usually accompanied by la sabina rastrera, gayuba and junipers
 * Gayuba = common bearberry (Arctostaphylos uva-ursi (L.) Spreng) [DONE]
 * Sabina rastrera = Juniperus sabina L. = "Savin Juniper" [DONE]
 * Leaving us still to work out what to do with menos lavados, literally "less washed". - Jmabel | Talk 06:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * going for the literal trans. of less washed limestone soils -  Technopat 21:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

- Jmabel | Talk 07:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sus etapas regresivas suelen ser thickets almohadillados de cambrones (Genista pumila) or tomillares y prados de diente dominados por dwarf shrubs y gramíneas de hoja punzante. En sus localizaciones at lower altitudes, they can also alternate with ''espliego y aliaga.'
 * es:Lavandula spica says espliego is Lavandula spica; various lookups suggest that is the same as Lavandula angustifolia (English lavender, common lavender); spica would mean "spiky" and Lavandula angustifolia is mentioned elsewhere in the article, so perhaps this is a subspecies or a particular formation.
 * aflorando la roca madre [nearly DONE] - exposing the "whatever" - roca madre is the rock beneath the subsoil and from which originate the materials making up the soil, etc. if no-one else can cope with this one, I'll get back on it soonish. Regs. --Technopat 23:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * [DONE] - bedrock - --Technopat 00:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice idea to summarise it all, Jmabel - looks like we've left the easy bits for the end and the moment of truth is drawing nearer. But I haven't given up yet!. Regards, Technopat 11:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Have been able to sort out the following from your list above:


 * (cuenca endorrieca) - Endorheic basin
 * (endrina) - blackthorn
 * (majuelo) - hawthorn


 * I was about to check them off on your list but didn't want to do it without your consent. Maybe we could do so from now on - it would save duplication and so on. Sorry about the indenting, etc. - hasn't come out the way I intented! Regards, Technopat 12:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Forgot to add arto = endrina. Technopat 12:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * [DONE]


 * Please see another query somewhere above. Technopat 13:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see piorno above also - it refers mainly to Cytisus (which includes brooms) but also Adenocarpus and extends throughout southern Europe and especially Spain, usually above the tree-line. So, it grows in areas called piornales in hummocks/mounds/bushy clumps/almohadillados? I'm outta here!Technopat 13:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "Hummock": good choice, similar connotations. - Jmabel | Talk 01:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Got this from a forum (http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,56.0.html): A better description for those growing above the tree line is “The Hedgehog Zone”……as the plants are generally low, rounded, compact and spiny, like said creature. The exposure to the elements, ie heat, wind and cold are less damaging to the needle like, dense greenery, of course this also deters grazing animals. Piorno azul, “Erinacea anthyllis”, Hedgehog broom is the perfect example…and note the name! ( also Piorno de crucecitas, Vella spinosa) - I like it but not quite sure of the 'adequateness' in this context. (Thanks to forum member "Sue")--Technopat 12:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've now gone through all of the ones for which we clearly have something definitive. Technopat, would you please take a look & see if there is anything left in the article that you can confidently translate? - Jmabel | Talk 19:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry Jmabel, haven't got round to reading it through critically yet - but your 'confidently' crack worries me. Will try to get round to it sometime over the coming week, but don't wait up for me! As it stands, I reckon it's good enough to present to "someone who knows" about these things. I was going to add some comments as to the original version, but this is neither the time nor the place. The article content as such will be perfected over time. Regards, Technopat 23:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

, this source seems relevant : Valbuena, María & Lopez de Heredia, Unai & Fuentes-Utrilla, Pablo & Gónzalez-Doncel, Inés & Gil, Luis. (2010). Historical and recent changes in the Spanish forests: A socio-economic process. Review of Palaeobotany and Palynology. In Press, Corrected Proof. 10.1016/j.revpalbo.2009.11.003. Yug (talk)  15:13, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * unsurprisingly, after 14 years I have moved on to other things. Have at it. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 16:03, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

more on piornales
Thought I'd follow up that forum clue and have just come across this page: [http://www.askoxford.com/languages/culturevulture/spain/andalucia/?view=uk ] (Ask Oxford - Oxford University Press) which includes the following text (which I'm pasting here on the discussion page, so I don't think it violates copyright - if it does, apologies and I'll remove it forthwith):

Moving away from the tourist spots proves that Andalucia is more than the sum of its parts. It is a region of extremes both culturally and ecologically. East of Malaga you can take what is the highest road in Europe to the Sierra Nevada, climbing through a dramatic landscape occupied by treeless grasslands dotted with spiny dwarf plants, endearingly known as the 'hedgehog zone'. At the top you are greeted by a vast expanse of snow and ice where you can happily spend a morning sledging and snowballing your friends and enemies. The highest parts of this range are sometimes referred to as 'the cold desert' but do not be fooled by the apparent harshness of the environment. Spain is well known for its biological diversity and the mountains hold the largest proportion of the region's unique plant species. The ecological importance of these isolated mountain ranges should not be underestimated, and in recognition of this the Sierra Nevada National Park was created in 1998.

Regards, Technopat 23:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Quoting a paragraph like that in a context like this should fall well within fair use.


 * That's a good description of the environment, and we should take advantage of it and integrate the term "hedgehog zone", but it really doesn't explain piornal, which from the context (here and elsewhere in the article) seemingly has to be a plant or class of plants. - Jmabel | Talk 08:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * A better guess on piornales: piorno == escoba ==> Cytisus scoparius == (boringly) Scotch broom / Common broom. So piornales == escobonales, just more clumps of Common broom (similarly to retamales, clumps of Spanish broom). Technopat, you seem to be the main other person still tracking; if you agree, that's what I'll go with. - Jmabel | Talk 08:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Jmabel - been neglecting Wikipedia recently (just been concentrating on politely requesting people to stop vandalising). Yes, I agree. Regs. Technopat 14:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

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