Talk:Formula One/Archive 8

Terms: Grand Prix v Race
The summary includes a sentence that starts: "A Formula One season consists of a series of races, known as Grands Prix...". In my experience, this is not true: US race fans do not refer to races as "grands prix", nor do they use the term "grand prix" to refer to a single racing event, except as part of the title of a race. The British Grand Prix is a "race", not a "grand prix". Perhaps British readers would expect to see "grand prix", although I suspect that, even among British readers, using the term "grand prix" sounds pretentious and odd. I understand that this article has a stronger connection to British English than US English, but this seems like an opportunity to use vocabulary common to all varieties of English. I believe, but can't prove right now, that every reader will understand "race", while most English-speakers will be confused by "grand prix". At this point, "grand prix" appears throughout this and many other articles, so it's probably too late to make this change, but I thought I would raise this issue.Rks13 (talk) 04:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * My understanding (as a British person) is and always has been that "Grand Prix" refers to the event or the weekend as a whole (practise and quali included) the "race" refers exclusively to the part of the weekend between the formation lap and the checkered flag. This means that there are some place where race and Grand Prix are interchangeable (the "winner of the race" is equivalent to the "winner of the Grand Prix" but the opening sentence is correct as is. SSSB (talk) 08:29, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Logo
F1 is using the F1 70 logo for 2020. I feel like it's appropriate to have in the article if it's being used this year? FozzieHey (talk) 21:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok then. I din't know about that logo until now. PedroLucasDBr (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Constructor nationality
How many sources do you need? I don't think we need to cite every single fact in the infobox as it affects readability purposes. FozzieHey (talk) 10:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * None of those confirm that the constructor has a nationality and not the team/entrant. How do you explain that in for example this entry list Team Rebaque had a Mexican nationality and entered a Lotus, while the factory Lotus team's nationality was British? Also note that the official FIA and F1 websites and on-screen graphics on TV do not list nationalities for constructors in the championship standings and entry lists like they do for drivers. Carfan568 (talk) 10:36, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Would you not agree that times have changed since 1978? Are you saying Mercedes-Benz AG the constructor is not German because I'm sure we can get some registration documents for that as well? FozzieHey (talk) 10:39, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Those times are a good reference as back then multiple teams raced for the same constructor. Also the entry list from 2010 that you posted did not not include any nationalities for constructors like it did for drivers and teams/entrants. The official FIA and F1 websites and on-screen graphics on TV still do not list nationalities for constructors in the championship standings and entry lists like they do for drivers. If there is no evidence that the FIA officially recognise nationalities for constructors, then we should not put flags next to them like with engine manufacturers. Carfan568 (talk) 11:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The constructor Mercedes-Benz AG is German, is there any downside in stating that in the infobx? FozzieHey (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not Mercedes-Benz AG, it is Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Ltd., which is in Britain. If we cannot include flags for engine manufacturers because the FIA doesn't officially recognise their nation, then we should be consistent here and apply the same reasoning for constructors. Carfan568 (talk) 11:51, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Ltd. is a subsidiary of Mercedes-Benz AG. The majority of people visiting this page will be looking for the team not the constructor. I think we should assume here that team nationality == constructor nationality, sure the FIA doesn't explicitly state "Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Ltd. is German" but why would they? If both the team and the parent company is German that why shouldn't we state that here? Mercedes themselves state that they are German. FozzieHey (talk) 11:56, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Team and constructor simply are different things and we should not put the team's nationality next to a constructor. The team's nationality can be mentioned in prose, but putting ambiguous flags like that is not really appropriate per MOS:FLAG. Carfan568 (talk) 16:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Teams ARE constructors in the past few decades. Although constructor and team were separate in the past, the specific articles you are editing are all ones in which every team was required to be a constructor.  Hence the nationality of the team is the nationality of the constructor.  The359  ( Talk ) 23:45, 3 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Edit: Further, per your example of the Formula One sporting regulations, your say that entrants must include "The name of the team (which must include the name of the chassis)." This means that the name of the team must include the name of the constructor.  The name of the chassis does not refer to the F1000 or E23 or FW38 or whatever each team wants to call their cars.  It refers to the constructor name used in the full name of the chassis.  We had this problem before of previously listing "Red Bull" as the constructor when the FIA recognized "Red Bull Racing" or "RBR" as the constructor.  Your attempt to claim that the FIA considers the team and constructor to be separate is WP:SYNTH.  Your repeated use of Rebaque does not negate that the line between entrant and constructor has merged since the 1990s.  The359  ( Talk ) 23:52, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

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Is COVID-19 section (as it currently exists) necessary/appropriate for this article?
The information detailed is all found (or at least should be found) on the article. I'm not sure how relevant it is to this broad overview article. Does anyone have any comments on this? 2A02:C7F:DC08:9000:183B:9A80:C175:A5D6 (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

why doesn't the lead go into more detail about the history of Grand Prix racing?
At the very least a mention of how the World Drivers' Championship was at the very least a successor to (if not a continuation of) the 1930s European Drivers' Championship; and the origin of Grand Prix motor racing with the 1906 French Grand Prix would seem in order. While reliable sources usually only stick to counting World Championship races for purely statistical purposes, it's rare to see them pretend that Grands Prix just suddenly sprang into existence in.

A short sentence somewhere in the lead saying something like "Grand Prix motor racing can trace its history to the first decade of the 20th century, while the modern World Championship effectively replaced the 1930s European Drivers' Championship" would probably suffice.

The lead currently seems heavily slanted towards discussing the current state of the sport, often going into details which would likely be better covered elsewhere in the article. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 15:26, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Qualifying Tyres
Here is what the article says: ""Each car taking part in Q3 receives an 'extra' set of the softest available tyre. This set has to be handed in after qualifying, but drivers knocked out in Q1 or Q2 can use this set for the race.""

How can that be? The drivers knocked out in Q1 or Q2 don't take part in Q3; they don't get the extra tyres.

Also, the references to the formula1.com website, [57}, [58}, [59], don't say what they apparently used to say. The website has been updated.

Yanacochito (talk) 20:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe everyone gets an extra set that can ONLY be used in Q3, if they make it. If they don't, they're free to use it during the race. If they do, the set must be used in Q3. Admanny (talk) 06:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression (don't ask me where I get the impression from) is that only drivers who take part in Q3 are given the tyres in the first place, and the tyres must be returned after the session as they are Q3 tyres. SSSB (talk) 10:51, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments! After some internet searching, I found the following, which I think is the authoritative document, titled "2020 FORMULA ONE SPORTING REGULATIONS" https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2020_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_8_-_2020-05-27_0.pdf .  What I understand from it:
 * · Each car gets 13 sets of tyres for the race, 6 of which are returned after practice
 * · Of the 7 sets remaining, one is the Q3 soft compound tyre, one is the race specification medium tyre and one is the race specification hard tyre
 * · The cars that make it to Q3 have to return their Q3 soft compound tyre after Q3; the cars that don't make it to Q3 don't
 * So, it's not really like an extra set. It's more like the cars that don't make Q3 can use their Q3 tyres in the race.
 * Please check my source and my logic. If there is no disagreement, I will clarify the page that confused me. Yanacochito (talk) 12:53, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * That is also how I read that document SSSB (talk) 13:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Removing my edit as this is not a history article
My edit was a history one so I'm removing it as this is not a history article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThatUnknownF1Fan (talk • contribs) 15:01, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Contribution toward environmental sustainability; ICE phase-out date
It would be nice to include links to articles arguing, as I believe, that given that ICE engines will have to be completely phased out in mass motoring (and probably therefore, all motoring?) by 2035..2050, that to continue to use ICE engines in F1 is not relevant to the development of real-life vehicle technologies: therefore, an ICE phase-out date should be adopted. It could be that hydrogen might be used - which is a technology that is a mass-market option (albeit for long/heavy haul road, shipping, rail and aviation). But which technology is a market decision, and indeed could be a major part of the sport, one could have different technologies competing against each other.Lawrence18uk (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You may want to read WP:SOAPBOX and WP:CRYSTAL. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * As well as WP:OR. SSSB (talk) 17:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Effects of COVID-19
The Effects of COVID-19 section of this article feels to be too temporally-specific to fit into a general article, moreso given the section currently only relates to calendar changes in 2020 and isn't a larger piece about the effects of the pandemic on drivers, the 2021 tech regs changes, the 2021 calendar, or the larger sport.

Propose removing this section; perhaps making a shorter note of the pandemic and its effects elsewhere in the article. I don't think a table of calendar changes is really necessary, as the 2020 and 2021 World Championship articles already do this is in far more detail. Kimberly Grey (talk) 14:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The section is WP:RECENTISM. SSSB (talk) 08:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Also agree. There's a large amount of unnecessary detail covering more recent seasons in this article compared to earlier periods, which is WP:UNDUE WP:RECENTISM. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 09:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I also have the same concerns surronding the "new locations initiative" section SSSB (talk) 09:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and removed the section, adding a new paragraph to history instead (the change). By no means thorough, purposefully omitting a few things (Perez, Stroll and Hamilton catching it; the Virtual Grand Prix; probably more) but I wasn't sure how relevant those would be considered in the wider scheme of things. Kimberly Grey (talk) 18:33, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

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Content dispute: where teams are based
I'm quite angry with and his baseless accusations, but I'll try to keep focus on his edits.

First. The main point of my removal is that neither source given actually Haas' UK base, the only one that discusses Haas (a bad one) only says they're based. We're supposed to write articles based on reliable published sources, not what we feel is mostly right/correct. "More right than wrong" is not an excuse, the texts we add should at least try to reflect what sources actually say. Morrover, it's not even true as currently written...

Second. I'll admit the secondary arguments on Red Bull and Alpine are weaker and can be handwaved as "well, that's irrelevant (even if true) and can't be proven through secondary RS, bruh". However, I'll argue that most news articles (even from sources considered RS) discussing the so-called "Motorsport Valley" are not-NPOV and rarely try to depict a complete picture on the entities beyond a British perspective.

Third. The original text was really there to prove how Ferrari is more authentic and special and most of the other teams are just fake English mercenary placeholders (which may be true, but not really NPOV). The sources support the text as written, and were hastily added after its addition was reverted a couple of times. The original text contained gems like conflating team and constructor or saying Ferrari are the only one "which produces road cars and Formula 1 cars at the same site, which is also the company Headquarters" I tried to fix it to be at least factually correct even if not sticking with the supposed "sources", but I gave up...

I'm open to discuss ways to highlight the importance of the British industry on F1. But at least let's try to stick to sources... or at least to the truth.

If this thread has no meaningful responses after a week, other that appealing to a majority "consensus" (consensus≠majority here...), I'll remove the text again. --Urbanoc (talk) 21:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I am quick to apologise when I've done something wrong. In this case I have no idea why you are getting so "quite angry" about this edit summary of mine:
 * "It's more correct than it's not. Your edit summary is full of opinion/original research. Since we've so far got a 2:1 opinion for the status quo, so let's take this to the talk page to agree the way forward".
 * This referred to your edit summary of
 * " thinking more on it, removing the para completely, as it's a can of worms. The only RS source used is really old, and doesn't include Haas (which is very debatable to call UK-based), and doesn't really explains Red Bull (engine supplied from Sakura and synergies with an Italian team) and Alpine (many operations of the team, including some marketing and management activities, are really based in Boulogne-Billancourt and Viry, even if chassis and legal base is in Enston"
 * It excludes Haas due to age of the source, agreed. But Red Bull is demonstrably a UK-centred team (but not by flag of course).  Did McLaren's foreign engines make them non-British (1 of countless examples)?  And do Aston Martin's synergies with Mercedes change their nationality? And Apline is still Enstone-focused and based (no argument that the French operations are also significant however).  Good luck finding a RS for otherwise.  Overall the paragraph definitely needs to be updated, I totally agree.  I just disagree with your heavy-handed approach to removing it altogether. Mark83 (talk) 12:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , I'm keeping what I said off-topic on all over, I see no reason to change my views. As for the on-topic discussion, the content was already accepted in a poor state two times: the first with glaring fallacies and the second admittedly in better form, but still off on the content side (even if you handwave the Red Bull/Alpine thing, which arguably you can do, it's still off...) and with poor sourcing. Content should be reasonably accurate and sourced as soon as it's in the article. But let's run on the premise I was too heavy-handed when insisting on straight removing it (although I tried to improve it, albeit without much success...), and the paragraph at its core has indeed information worthy of Wikipedia. Fair enough, that sounds better a premise than non-arguments and appeals to majorities. So, let's keep it, sure. Let's hope it doesn't stay as it is now, and people take some minutes to fix the info and the sourcing. That's it from my part. --Urbanoc (talk) 00:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Pole Trophy
There are currently no sporting regulations covering the 'Pole Trophy" the last set of sporting regulations I can find to mention the existence of such a trophy awarded at the end of the season for the most pole positions is 2018 with the regulations for 2019 omitting the "Pole Trophy". As such it appears to have been replaced with the wind tunnel tyre awarded after each qualifying event. I have tried to find sources for the winner of the 2019 and 2020 "Pole Trophy" as described, but none can be found. As such I think this needs removing from articles from 2019 onwards as the FIA from the loos of the regulations have scrapped the overall trophy at the end of the season with the Wind Tunnel tyres. The relevant regulation was 6.7 of the sporting code and I have included the 2014 to present Sporting Regulations for reference below: 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 Sparkle1 (talk) 17:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * And yet Formula 1 still awarded Leclerc the Pole Trophy for 2019 (announcement on F1.com), so whether or not it is awarded is not solely determined by regulation. However, I agree with removing it from season infoboxes beginning with 2019 since it seems to be on the same level as the overtake award, pit stop award, etc. 5225C (talk • contributions) 00:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I have moved the discussion to WT:F1 since this does not relate to the Formula One article. 5225C (talk • contributions) 00:42, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2021 and 23 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Natjman11.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

New Locations Initiative
The current New Locations Initiative section seems a bit ambiguous, the cited main aim of this initiative is to "introduce races in countries that have never competed in the sport before". It's my understanding of the current sections that the Miami Grand Prix should be kept in the Future Grands Prix section until the race is complete. However, after that where should it be placed? I think it's important to highlight the newer races but I don't think it fits under the cited aim of the "New Locations Initiative". I tried to find out more information about this initiative but couldn't find much, so it may just be worth renaming the section to "New Races (2008-present)". I also don't quite know why these sections (including the Returning additions section) are limited to 2008-present, maybe we should change it to something a bit more recent (the last 5 or 10 years or something?). FozzieHey (talk) 11:24, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * The biggest problem with this section is that it should be removed. It is blatant WP:RECENTISM and WP:OR (as most of the Grands Prix within this section are not identified as being part of the New Locations Initiative within the sources). SSSB (talk) 11:28, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't object to the section being removed, but I think it is important to highlight the new races in the main article. That might not include a dedicated table but just a couple of sentences detailing the expansion, I think the current List of Formula One Grands Prix article handles quite a lot of that already though. I don't think that would be too WP:RECENTISM because we also have a few sentences detailing the history dating back to the 1950s. FozzieHey (talk) 11:33, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * A handful of sentences explaining how the number of races and variaety of locations are already in the prose (but could be updated, as it currently deals with the 2014 season). Having dedicated sections covering individual periods is WP:UNDUE unless we cover other time periods equally. (i.e. if we have a table for the 15 years to 2023 (which is 2008-2023) we should have another table for 1992-2007 etc.) I would remove the returning additions (2008-present), new locations initive, and future GP sections, and let the prose only handle the most recent addition(s), and future (100% confirmed) races. SSSB (talk) 12:09, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with deleting the Returning additions and New Locations Initiative sections and detailing a short history in prose (the rest is handled in the List of Formula One Grands Prix list). However, I think it's a good idea to keep the Future Grands Prix section, it's not WP:UNDUE as they don't have any coverage elsewhere (neither in the Grands Prix list article nor their respective season articles because the 2023+ season articles don't exist yet). I also think it's more intuitive to handle those races in a simple table (removing the notes section and just showing the introduction year) than it is to handle those in prose. So if we were to just limit the Future Grands Prix section to confirmed races in which a season article doesn't already exist, I think that would be the best course of action. FozzieHey (talk) 12:20, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * This is a quick demo table to try and demonstrate what I'm thinking of. FozzieHey (talk) 14:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable sortable" style="font-size: 95%"

! Race ! Circuit ! Target calendar entry
 * 🇶🇦 Qatar Grand Prix
 * TBC
 * 2023
 * 🇺🇸 Las Vegas Grand Prix
 * Las Vegas Street Circuit
 * 2023
 * }
 * These Grands Prix are already listed in List of Formula One Grand Prix, where it is listed with all the other Grands Prix. If we want a seperate section dedicated to future Grands Prix then the appropriate location would be that article, not here. Even if we did decide to include future races in this article, we don't need a table for two GPs, a simple sentence would do: "The Qatar and Las Vegas Grands Prix are due to join the calendar for the 2023 season. The wikilinks can then be used to find out more information (such as track). But again, a similar sentence is already in the list article. My opinion is that the GPs section in the article should effectely be a summary of the lead of List of Formula One Grand Prix, nothing more. SSSB (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * While I agree that List of Formula One Grands Prix has these two races, it's not very easy to see upcoming races (whereas if you wanted to see a tabled list of races in a given season, you would go to the respective article for that season). What I was thinking of with the simple table above is to effectively provide the differences between the current season's article and the next season. I would support adding an "upcoming" section to the list article (below the current "Active and past races") section and changing this article's section to be a subset of the list articles lead. FozzieHey (talk) 15:48, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * That's what we will do then. I'll wait a bit longer, and if there are no additional comments, I'll be bold and trim it down. SSSB (talk) 10:27, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * These Grands Prix are already listed in List of Formula One Grand Prix, where it is listed with all the other Grands Prix. If we want a seperate section dedicated to future Grands Prix then the appropriate location would be that article, not here. Even if we did decide to include future races in this article, we don't need a table for two GPs, a simple sentence would do: "The Qatar and Las Vegas Grands Prix are due to join the calendar for the 2023 season. The wikilinks can then be used to find out more information (such as track). But again, a similar sentence is already in the list article. My opinion is that the GPs section in the article should effectely be a summary of the lead of List of Formula One Grand Prix, nothing more. SSSB (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * While I agree that List of Formula One Grands Prix has these two races, it's not very easy to see upcoming races (whereas if you wanted to see a tabled list of races in a given season, you would go to the respective article for that season). What I was thinking of with the simple table above is to effectively provide the differences between the current season's article and the next season. I would support adding an "upcoming" section to the list article (below the current "Active and past races") section and changing this article's section to be a subset of the list articles lead. FozzieHey (talk) 15:48, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * That's what we will do then. I'll wait a bit longer, and if there are no additional comments, I'll be bold and trim it down. SSSB (talk) 10:27, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Can Las Vegas and Kyalami be considered "new locations" anyway? F1 has raced at these before. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I think for the purpose of this, new locations can be defined as "Races that are not in the current season, but are included in the next season". That sufficiently differentiates it from the "Active and past races" section. FozzieHey (talk) 20:03, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The Qatar Grand Prix isn't new in any definition though. Am I the only here who remembers we already had a Qatar Grand Prix occuring in 2021?Tvx1 19:46, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I probably shouldn't have used the word "new" there. The additional section we're suggesting in the list article is an "Upcoming" section comprising of races not included in the current season calendar. When that is implemented, we can just drop the race tables in this article. FozzieHey (talk) 19:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)