Talk:Fort Alcatraz

Requested move 12 February 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover)  SITH   (talk)   14:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Alcatraz Citadel → Fort Alcatraz – This article is about the whole of Fort Alcatraz, yet it is named for a single structure, more or less like naming an article on Washington, DC The White House. Moving will reqire deletion of a redirect. Qwirkle (talk) 08:36, 12 February 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Dekimasu よ! 10:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. В²C ☎ 23:20, 27 February 2019 (UTC)  --Relisting. B dash (talk) 09:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Is not the entire fort referred to as the citadel in sources? Google dictionary says citadel is a synonym for fort.  Can't both "fort" and "citadel" refer to either the particular building or the entire area?  --В²C ☎ 19:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * No, the fort is not refered to properly as the Citadel in any good source. (It does show up in some bad ones, based on this article. (Wiki does that. (A lot.)))


 * While “citadel”, “fort”, “bastion”, “rampart” and so forth can be used metaphorically for any strongpoint, and can be loosely used, or ignorantly confused, they all have particular meanings that diverge. A citadel was, in one usage, the last defense of a fortress, and this was the way it was used here, as it was for many US forts of its era.


 * More importantly, this is an institution that had a proper name, which was Fort Alcatraz, part of which was a building, which had a proper name, The (Alcatraz) Citadel The citadel was a particular structure, quarters above, but below defensible. It was only one of many parts of the fort, and not the most important by any means. Qwirkle (talk) 19:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment, I notice the Military garrison sub-section at Alcatraz Island uses Fortress Alcatraz (redirecting here), and the subsequent Military prison subsection refers to this article as the Main article about that prison. It's confusing.  Is Fortress Alcatraz worth consideration for this title?   --В²C ☎ 19:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * No. Nothing from any of Wiki’s own articles is, and particularly so for this group of them. They are not just confusing, they are confused. Qwirkle (talk) 20:04, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * This is not an area I'm expert in. Barely familiar, really. Haven't even been on Alcatraz. But with my questions I'm trying to eek out some firm basis for this move that others now and in the future can review and verify. Your opinion, however correct it may be, is not that. Thanks --В²C ☎ 20:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Do a Google book search for fort alcatraz during the time it was a US military facilty, 1850-1934. Note that it brings up congressional documents, army official documents, memoirs, histories...


 * Do the same for fortress alcatraz. My results contained two listings, one of which is a false positive, the other of which is mockery. What do you see from it? Qwirkle (talk) 20:42, 27 February 2019 (UTC)


 * , have you had a chance to look at those advanced google book search suggestions? (I’m not linking, because of Google’s unfortunate tendency to “customize” its results.) Qwirkle (talk) 20:08, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Peter K Burian (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. Okay, based on some searches at books.google.com I agree that the citadel generally refers to just the structure, and this article is about the entire fort, so it should be moved as proposed. The proposed title already redirects here, so there are no primary topic or disambiguation issues to resolve. --В²C ☎ 18:36, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Support for the reason discussed by В²C. Yes, the Citadel was just one building at the Fort. Crowning the island near the lighthouse (the first built on the Pacific coast in 1854) was a defensive barracks called the Citadel. The Citadel was the final defense if the island was attacked. https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/civil-war-at-alcatraz.htm
 * Comment, since the original creator of this article is still around, I'd like to check with them as well. --В²C ☎ 23:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.