Talk:Fort Lauderdale, Florida/Archive 1

Area Shopping
Removed the following from Shopping. It reads like the Chamber of Commerce wrote it. Needs to be more "encyclopaedic" before inclusion.

We should include the fact that Sawgrass Mills, while not in the city, is considered an area mall, is the 4th largest in the U.S., what do you think? ReignMan 03:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

-- Bastique &#09660; parler voir 02:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah Bastique, you have read my mind before I even knew what I was thinking!Mad Max 02:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Y'know Mad Max, we update, write, correct, and generally help create a s***load of articles on wikipedia, but Fort Lauderdale...well, as far as I'm concerned, this one is special. There's no place like home... there's no place like home... there's no place like home... Bastique &#09660; parler voir 02:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Andre Stander's death
I removed the following item from the History section on the article page:


 * Fort Lauderdale is also the death place of notable South African bank robber Andre Stander. Stander was shot to death by Fort Lauderdale police in 1984.

I don't think it is pertinent to the history of the city. This is actually a piece of trivia, but I don't like "Trivia" sections in articles. So, here it is. Any thoughts? --  Donald Albury ( Talk )  11:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Andre Stander is who again? :) Bastique &#09660; parler voir 13:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Fort Liquordale"
I removed the following: "The city is also sometimes referred to as "Fort Liquordale" because of its beaches, many bars, nightclubs, strip clubs, and overall party atmosphere."

This nickname is offensive to those of us who live here and is not in common use (save, perhaps, for those who drink too much alcohol). Fort Lauderdale is not the party place it was before the mid-1980s, when steps were taken to reduce the number of spring-break partiers.

It is seriously inappropriate to link to sites that list bars and such in an encyclopedia. THE ABOVE LINK TAKES US DIRECTLY TO A SITE THAT DESCRIBES A SINGLE BAR. People who want to come to Fort Lauderdale and who know how to use a computer can find that information on their own.

--ScottyFLL 23:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ft. Lauderdale is on my birth certificate and in my blood, and I hate this nickname. But to deny that it exists is wrong.  It IS a nickname, and the actions taken to remove it were very harmful to us as a city.  It was a dark hour.

ReignMan 03:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's separate out the issues here. It is against Wikipedia policy to remove something from an article because you do not agree with it or do not like it. That is imposing your POV on the article. However, statements that are not sourced may be challenged and removed. "Fort Liguordale" was in common use in the past, and it's mention in the article would be valid, in the proper context and with a reliable source. As for linking to bars, the guideline at WP:EL would preclude such links in most cases. -- Donald Albury 02:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep the remark as easily sourceable...but get rid of the link to a single bar. This transcends original research, any of us who've been here for any length of time have heard of Fort Liquordale. Bastique &#09660; parler voir 02:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Fort Liquordale" gets 9,890 hits on Google, although most of them appear to be blogs and chat forums. There are a few that I believe can be used as sources. -- Donald Albury 12:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A lot of those hits are to sites that use this very article on their pages.


 * What is the standard, if any, for including nicknames for cities in articles? When might a nickname be deemed to be pejorative -- and how do we determine what is pejorative (which is forbidden by Wikipedia guidelines) without entering into POV?  --ScottyFLL 19:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Perjorative nicknames are not specifically prohibited by Wikipedia guidelines. Nicknames that are commonly known are certainly not prohibited.  Bastique &#09660; parler voir 19:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not easily finding a source other than yourself that states that the City of Fort Lauderdale has an "overall party atmosphere". It appears to be opinion.  --ScottyFLL 20:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I see that Wikipedia has included that Fort Lauderdale is also known as Venice of America, which makes me wonder why they wouldn't include Fort Liquerdale as its nick name also. What the name implies is not up to Wikipedia to determine. Its a fact, its what locals and vacationers call it, thus the reason it should be in the article.

-Mike Mendez —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.65.75.225 (talk • contribs)

"Venice of America" is the official nickname and look at the seal on the front page, what does it show? It seems a stretch to compare an official nickname with party promotion. Look at Atlanta, I'm sure there are a lot of 'hip-hop' names for the city, but they are jargonized and not endorsed by the city.→ R Young {yak ł talk } 18:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

As a Fort Lauderdale native, I've never heard Fort Lauderdale called 'Fort Liquordale' (Wow, really?  How old are you? ReignMan 03:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)). This seems to be a concoction of the nightclub/bar industry, and as such, the 'references' provided are not a newspaper but ads for local bars/nightclubs. Yes, let's tease out the facts:

1. The city is known as 'Venice of America' and marketed as such 2. The 'Fort Liquordale' name is not in common use among either local inhabitants or visitors. 3. Even if it was, it is not appropriate in the lead-in, main heading. 4. 'References' that include a conflict of interest/financial interest are not appropriate. In short, this is an 'encyclopedia' not a 'marketing tool.'

Thus, four reasons for not including it, no reasons for including it. → R Young {yak ł talk } 18:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Fort Liquordale' is indeed well known, and has been for a long time, but what matters for WP is that it is verifiable. It appears to me that keeping this out of the article is an attempt to sanitize the city's image. -- Donald Albury</b> 20:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Fort Liquordale should indeed remain within the article. This is quite well known and verifiable. Bastiq ▼ e demandez 16:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

"Fort Liquordale" is not used by residents of South Florida or tourists. Perhaps during the Spring Break days of the 70s and 80s this nick-name had limited popularity with spring breakers, but it is definitely not in common use anymore, especially since Spring Breakers are no longer welcome. Stating that "Fort Liquordale" used to be a popular nick-name for the city among spring breakers would be more appropriate.Ae01 03:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Spring Break destination
I removed the following: "In the last few years however, Fort Lauderdale has welcomed back spring breakers with open arms, due in part to the large infusion of cash for the local economy they provide. Police for their part have kept problems to a minimum, and the scene is nowhere near the anarchy of the 1970s and 1980s crowds."

It isn't true. Fort Lauderdale does not welcome spring breakers with open arms, or any other way, for the most part. See here [] and here.

--ScottyFLL 00:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph should not mention a specific demographic
I feel it is inappropriate to mention demographics in Fort Lauderdale's opening paragraph. It is especially inappropriate to mention a single demographic. For example, to mention solely that there are a lot of white/black/asian/hispanic/straight/gay/jewish/christian/republican/democrat etc.. is a clear attempt to influence culture. It is true that an author of Rainbow Travel, a sub-website of The Greater Fort Lauderdale Convention and Business Bureau, has the agenda of targeting a single demographic to improve local business. I think that is great, but that agenda should not be placed on the opening paragraph of Fort Lauderdale's description. There is no demographic that dominates the city's culture and population, so that information should be left in the Demographic section along with the others. -RStepp


 * I think it could be appropriate if the notion of ft lauderdale as a gay mecca is sufficiently established. i mean, a city can be known for its place re a specific demographic: eg the role of gays in nearby Wilton Manors, Florida is probably sufficiently notable to appear in the opening paragraph, just as a case can probably be made for mentioning the importance of Atlanta to american black culture (and vice versa) in the opening paragraph of the Atlanta, Georgia article, just as there could be a reasonable case for mentioning the high swedish population of certain towns in Minnesota, etc. The key should be notability (as determined through consensus) and verifiability (as evidenced by reliable sources); we should not be overly hesitant to identify a specific demographic that plays an outward role in creating a city's identity in the opening paragraph for that city. Captaintruth 22:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. If a demographic has a major and dominant contribution to the atmosphere of a city, then it could be considered for the description of the city. As a resident of the city, I can tell you that very many demographics contribute equally. I have lived here many years and enjoyed most every known social venue, and I have yet to experience defining influence of any single culture (I do admit that it's a large city). I feel that, in most cases, all contributing demographics should be mentioned or none at all. In this case, the source was a travel page designed to advertise. I don't blame the author of the website for having an agenda, but I do not feel the quote is worthy for the city's description. I think it should take a large majority of citizens to agree that a single demographic defines a city. -RStepp

I'll accept the compromise move, but I do believe your are simply professing anti-gay bigotry. You mention a lot of groups, but by your actions you only move the "gay" reference. Also, a group may be a minority but be relatively significant. For example, both Chinese and gays in San Francisco are minorities, but culturally are considered an important part of the city heritage. No one said that everyone in Fort Lauderdale is gay. It simply said that it was the top gay tourist destination in the USA, something oft-repeated (and not just by Ft. Lauderdale).→ <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; color:#ff0000;">R <span style="color:#006688; font-family:arial, helvetica;">Young {<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">yak <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica;">ł <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">talk } 13:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * To me the facts that 1) fort lauderdale is the top gay tourist destination in the US combined with the fact that 2) tourism in general is a dominant industry in fort lauderdale economically and has been central to defining what the city is, when combined, start to make a case for sufficient notability of the gay presence to include in the intro paragraph (though I am still torn). I don't agree that the only way one group can be sufficiently notable to mention is by constitutibg a numerical majority/being numerically dominant -- the gay in san francisco example is a great one to demonstrate that numerical majority is not the only bath to notability sufficient for inclusion in the intro paragraph. Captaintruth 22:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I appreciate you accepting the line's move. I am not anti-gay by any means. I honestly welcome all forms of culture with open arms, which is why I live in south fla. Anyway, I am against any particular demographic placed solely in the defining of a city. If any one of my above mentioned demographic groups was placed solely in the defining of fort lauderdale, I would think it inappropriate and a little offensive that everyone wasn't included. Everyone has their own agenda, and mine is only to make the page fair and encyclopedia like. Unlike truly defining and dominating cultures of Atlanta and Wilton Manors, gay citizens and tourists in fort lauderdale are just one of very many welcome cultures. I have actually just looked into some non-south florida based web sites, and I haven't yet seen fort lauderdale placed in destination top ten lists for the country. I think, for now, the gay population of fort lauderdale can be in the demographics section with everyone else! -RStepp


 * I love the gay reference, it says we are open and accepting of gays here, and we are! We love our gay residents, and I like to make sure that the world knows that Broward has civil unions, and that Wilton Manors (my home!) is one of the top 10 gay zip codes in the U.S.  ReignMan 03:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)