Talk:Fort Lauderdale, Florida/Archive 2

Infobox City
Does anyone object to the transition to the template Infobox City? As an active member of WikiProject Cities, I am trying to standardize the template on pages I visit. Alan.ca 23:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

bordering cities and private schools
While Cooper City and Weston do not directly border Ft. Lauderdale, neither do Southwest Ranches nor Pembroke Pines. If the purpose of the list to to put actual shared boundaries, then all of these need to go. I think the list (or a new list should be added) should include any city that is part of the "Ft. Lauderdale address system" - that is, if you put on a letter "Ft. Lauderdale" as the city, your letter is still address properly.Butnotthehippo 21:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Dalbury, you also rv'ed my addition of the University School of Nova Southeastern University. This was unwarrented. The lst is for private schools "serving" Ft. Lauderdale. I believe that my addition was a beneficial contribution to the list. Further, Archbisop M. is not in Ft. LauderdaleButnotthehippo 21:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please keep non-bordering cities and universities not located in the city limits out of this article. If Southwest Ranches and Pembroke Pines are in there as bordering cities, and they do not share boundaries with Fort Lauderdale, they should be removed. Two wrongs don't make a right.  Bastiq ▼ e demandez 22:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The list for private school reads "private schools serving Ft. Lauderdale." I added a private school that serves Ft. Lauderdale, and a reference showing its mailing address as such. If the terminology of those lists of educational institutions are changed, then those lists have several items that are not physically in Ft. Lauderdale. I think the "serving" language is more informative and should be left as is. Butnotthehippo 00:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * What is your source for saying that Fort Lauderdale is served by University School? Remember that, per Verifiability, you need to cite published, reputable sources to add that statement back into the article. -- Donald Albury 03:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If an institution provides for a city as its offical mailing address, then I believe that would qualify that institution as "serving" that city. My reference, in no way that I can analyze, fails to meet the requirements for reputable sources. Butnotthehippo 04:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I added more references. I think this is a non-issue. Butnotthehippo 04:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It is still a problem. University School is in Davie, not Fort Lauderdale. Are you going to add University School to the school lists in every other city in Broward County? However, I will not edit war over this point. -- Donald Albury 01:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I couldn't see it. I could not see keeping a Southwest Ranches school in the article and felt compelled to remove the other one as well.  Let's keep this to Fort Lauderdale and districts serving Fort Lauderdale.  Countywide or regional private schools are not appropriate.  Bastiq ▼ e demandez 20:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

If consensus (which in this case right now seems to be 2 versus 1) is that these lists should be less inclusive, then the headings of these lsits must be changed. The description of the list should reflect the content. The word "serve" is broader than wanted. It seems like the angle wanted is for only educational institutions with a physical presence within the city. Therefore, I changed the headings of the lists so the contents are more narrow. (Personally, I think it is reasonable and informative to include other institutions outside the city limits that serve the residents of Fort Lauderdale - For example, sports teams not physically in the city are listed under the sports section. This seems reasonable. Likewise, why shouldn't other institutions be included in other lists. But if consensus is for a narrow list then I have no problem with that as long as the terms of the list are accurately described in a narrow manner.)Butnotthehippo 05:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that was as great compromise. Good idea, Bnth! Bastiq ▼ e demandez 14:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Notable Fort Lauderdale residents, past and present
That is a lot of information to just delete. It is unsourced, but it can be tagged as such and sources can be gathered and referenced. It can also be argued that Wikipedia as a whole is a "vandalism" magnet. I have no idea what you mean by that statement and there hasn't been any such uncontrolable vandalism on this page beyond the norms. If you will notice the last person who added themself was a "registered user" and not an anon IP. If something this large is to be deleted, it should be discussed first since it represents a large amount of collaberative work. Butnotthehippo 22:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and broke down the (huge) list into four general groups, and only removed one person (a porn star whose linked name was the third one of four listed). This list needs a serious evaluation, as a lot of these people are not notable, except for brief careers as professional athletes or for their involvement in adult entertainment. Wikipedia has a tendency to over-emphasize the notability of porn stars; draw your own conclusions.


 * User:Horologium talk - contrib 06:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph
The second sentence stated that Ft. Lauderdale is known for, among other things, "downtown arts and sciences."

RE: "sciences" deletion -- I removed "sciences" because this statement is inaccurate. I was born and raised in Ft. Lauderdale and I love it for a lot of reasons, but let's face it, it's not a science center. I've never heard anyone describe this town as being "known for sciences." This sounds like something that came from the convention and visitors bureau, or other folks who would like it to one day -become- known as a thriving center of scientific activity. I'd like that too, but this is an encyclopedia, not a sales brochure. Please don't replace the "sciences" claim unless you also provide citations backing this up. Cheesebikini 07:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What!?! The signs say "Arts and Sciences district", that's what it's called!!!  Plus, Ft. Lauderdale is a hub for oceanographic sciences.
 * ReignMan 19:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

RE: "downtown" deletion -- I removed this because the meaning of "downtown arts" or "downtown arts and sciences" is unclear. It might mean arts that are created/performed downtown, arts created elsewhere that are exhibited/traded downtown, architecture/urban planning/environmental design that actually make up the downtown, etc. This borders on fuzzy marketing speak rather than clear, concise, descriptive, encyclopedic content. Cheesebikini 07:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section
The first two asterisk-commented points under "Trivia" are, in my opinion, candidates for prompt deletion. It may be good to have some discussion of issues of crime in Fort Lauderdale, but statements like "The east side of fort lauderdale is crime riddin, and very notorious for drug trafficking, and gun violence," are, I think, not of enclopedia quality. Such discussion might go elsewhere than trivia, also. Malawi craig 05:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * All of the trivia should be removed, with the possible exception of the first, which *is* notable, albeit less than desirable. None of the other junk is sourced, and most appears to be cruft. I'm going to add the trivia tag, and note citations required for some of the trivia, and see if any reasonable cites are generated as a result. If there are no changes after a week, I'm going to nuke the uncited trivia and move the remaining stuff elsewhere in the article.


 * User:Horologium talk - contrib 05:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Horologium I have tried to find sources for the trivia materials that were added and it all came to no avail. I removed the fluff trivia and I feel the same way you do. I think the remaining things should be incorporated into the article itself and the trivia section should be removed. I am not a fan of trivia sections in an article to start with. They are usually POVs and lend no real value to the subject. I did not remove the tags because I felt it may prompt someone to try and source some of the remaining content. Let me know what you think Junebug52 11:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job. Cary Bass demandez 13:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I just couldn't take it! I kept thinking about the triva section of this article and felt that I had not done my job as an editor by leaving it in there with such shoddy attempts to repair it and bring it up to standards, so, I fixed it. I went back and incorporated the last of the trivia info into the article itself and I did away with the nasty trivia section! If someone would like to look at it and give some feedback as to where I placed the info, I will be glad to listen to any suggestions. But, I think where I have put everything enhances that section and gives it a proper flow. Feedback? Junebug52 18:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I like where you fit it the reference for "Fort Liquordale", which was a better location than where I planned to insert it, and the reference to the film was nicely done too. However, I'm not fond of the "Bermuda Triangle" thing, and it looks a bit clunky where you have placed it. Again, I won't unilaterally delete it, but if it has to remain, let's find a better place for it. I went in and removed some vandalism and tweaked the grammar in a few sections where it was not so nice. I also nuked the external link to a totally non-notable Holiday Inn.


 * I think we're making some progress on this article. We need to look at the "neighborhoods" and the "famous residents" sections, and clean out some of the chaff and outright errors. (Breakwater Surf is a single complex,not a neighborhood of Fort Lauderdale, and "Lofts of Palm-Aire Village" is part of the Palm-Aire neighborhood, not a separate listing.)And while all of the people listed have at least a wikipedia stub, is it really necessary or desirable to point out the six porn stars who at one time or another lived in the city? Horologium talk - contrib 20:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Bermuda Triangle edit all together. I don't think it was a good fit for the article and was certainly not able to be sourced. So all is well in the article known as Ft. Lauderdale Junebug52 12:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing/Subpaging
Somebody tagged a citation requirement for one tidbit in the "History" section. Well, I found a source, but it is a secondary source of unknown reliability, with a bibliography listing the original (book) source. Perhaps someone in Broward County can find it in one of the local libraries, because I'm not going to find it here in Gainesville. The online cite is here and the book referenced is ''Jewel in the Wilderness, Fort Lauderdale From Early Times to 1911. Broward County Comprehensive Survey Phase VIII'', by Paul S. George. Published by Historic Broward County Preservation Board. 1988. If we can verify the citation's accuracy, then we can add it to the refs and remove the citation needed tag.

On a totally unrelated topic, I'd like to take the list of Fort Lauderdale neighborhoods and set up a subpage for listing them, then use a brief narrative discussing the Neighborhood Organization Recognition Program, instead of the huge chunk-o-links that is there now. One of the recommendations for improving articles is to use prose instead of lists when possible, and the rather specific guidelines Fort Lauderdale has specified for defining a neighborhood is something that could be paraphrased into prose. We don't need to list all 90 or so communities on the main page. Again, I'd rather have some sort of consensus rather than just being bold, since that is a really big change to this article's structure. If that works, we should consider doing the same thing with all of the famous people, although Category:People from Fort Lauderdale, Florida already exists, and we could simply link to it. Horologium talk - contrib 06:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Horologium, or should I say my "newest friend" I think your idea of putting these names in a subpage would be a marked improvement to what is there now! The page looks clunky and much too long for the secondary informations that are there. I think that the long lists of communities are not the main focus of what this article should be about, but rather, just a side marker. So I tell ya what... Why don't we work on first finding out which communities are notable and reducing the smaller ones and then placing the larger ones in a subpage? I have a problem with the amount of communities that are listed. I feel they have history, but lets face it, "This is not the White Pages or the Tax Office!" Input? Junebug52 11:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Neighborhoods moved to external page
Okay, I went ahead and moved the neighborhoods to an external page. I went through the list with a fine-tooth comb and a few of them didn't survive. Here's a rundown:
 * Broadview--I am pretty sure this is Broadview Park, which is outside the city limits.
 * Citrus Isles--A little checking with Google indicates that this is part of the River Oaks neighborhood.
 * Riverland-Woodlands--could not find this anywhere. Suspect it is the same as Riverland Woods, which is on the list already.
 * Royal Palm--There is a Royal Palm Ranch near Davie, that is not within the city limits. That was the only neighborhood I could find.
 * Sunland--Sunland Park is part of Durrs, where Sunland Park Elementary is located.
 * Terra Mar Island--This is in Lauderdale-by-the-Sea, not Fort Lauderdale.

Please, please, before adding to that page, bring it up on the discussion page. By using the city website (their Neighborhood Association listing and the map) I was able to locate all of the neighborhoods except for the ones I deleted, and Himmarshee Village, which is the little white space in the center of downtown. One of the reasons that list looked so bad was the continual additions and subtractions without bothering to reorganize. OxyMoronMinusOxy did a nice job of alphabetizing and retabling, but there was just too much information there.

Horologium talk - contrib 05:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Horologium, actually Broadview is a little place right before you get to the Tamarac area. It is actually classified as North Lauderdale. It looks 100% better than it did and my hat is off to you for all of your hard work! As soon as I can get some free time, I will shoot over here and help get this thing in shape. Junebug52 11:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Schools/Sites of Interest
I went through and pulled a few schools off the list. Lynn University is in Boca Raton, Northeast High is in Oakland Park, Boyd Anderson is in Lauderdale Lakes, and Nova is in Davie. I also removed the unlinked St. Mark's Episcopal School because it is K-8 only, does not have a Wikipedia entry, and is not likely to have one (it will get nominated for deletion as non-notable.) All of the high schools serve students in Fort Lauderdale, but they are not located *in* Fort Lauderdale, as indicated in the entry. Addtionally, the link for Cardinal Gibbons was to a school in North Carolina, so I reworded the link. There does not appear to be an article for the CGHS in Fort Lauderdale.

We should also go through and thin out the Sites of Interest; not all of them are really that noteworthy. Lockhart Stadium is going to be bulldozed out of existence, the two churches are primarily of interest only to those who worship in those congregations (although Calvary Chapel is apparently enormous), and some of the other entries are marginal at best. The Swap Shop? Port Everglades? It looks like every museum in the city is listed, except the King-Cromartie House; I'm not sure how notable some of them are, especially those without Wiki entries. Again, I'll wait for a few days, but I'd like to thin out some of the chaff. Eventually, I'd like to see this article reach Good Article status, but it needs some of the fluff pulled out first. Horologium talk - contrib 04:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Invasion
Twice this weekend, I have removed the insertion of the word "invasion" into the history section of this article by another editor, who appears intent on painting the non-"Native American" settlers of Fort Lauderdale in a negative light. I have removed the information because it is patently PoV, and because it is factually shaky. The South Florida area was very thinly populated prior to the 20th century, either by the Tequesta, the Seminoles, or white settlers that arrived later. The several hundred Seminoles who lived in Broward County after the Seminole wars of the Mid 1800s lived primarily on Pine Island, which is located in present-day Davie, not Fort Lauderdale. There was little competition between the Indians and the American settlers, because there was plenty of room to go around. I would like to see a consensus on wording of the history section before the word "invasion" is reintroduced into the article. Horologium t-c 00:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * the white "settlers" did not live there previously, did not own the land, were not native to America and came from outside (or their parents did) therefore the word "invaders" is a perfectly good description of them ... they invaded the land. words like "contact", "settlers" etc are therefore weasel words that avoid the truth ... all of course IMHO. I have put the word "invaders" in at the first opportunity so that this fact is not lost from the article ... of course if there is a consensus for removing it (more than one editor) then naturally I will agree. Abtract 10:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The word "Invasion" in my opinion, seems to show more POV than an accurate display of encyclopedic fact. I have changed the wording so that it is non POV and still makes the same statement. The Seminoles did in fact live in the now known area of Davie which is not Fort Lauderdale. They have always found themselves to be pushed to the Southwest area of the region and even to date, this is where you will find the majority. That is of course unless the Census Bureau has it wrong? Junebug52 11:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't agree thet "invasion" is POV but I do like your edit ... thanks. Abtract 12:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I am satisfied with the current wording of that section. I made a minor change (European's arrival to Europeans' arrival), but the rest of the verbiage works for me. Horologium t-c 19:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I love it when a plan comes together!!! Great work guys Junebug52 21:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Lists
I have been trying to de-listify this article as much as possible (in accordance with the Manual of Style guidelines). The new list on schools directly contradicts that, unless we create another separate subpage (which I will do, if we can get something resembling a consensus). If it is not obvious by now, my intent is to submit this page for a good article nomination, but until we de-listify some of the stuff we currently have, that is not going to happen. The sites of interest, notable residents, and now the education section consist of lists with no (or little) data, which is not something the guidelines recommend. The sister cities section is also bare links, but that might fly, as it is only 15 links.

If we do create a new subpage, List of schools in Fort Lauderdale, Florida or something similar, we can create a section to include schools outside the city that serve part of the city, such as Boyd Anderson High School or Nova High School, but as the article is constructed now, we have excluded them.

As to the other sections that are just lists, can we come up with some suggestions on what is really important and what can be discarded? As I mentioned some time ago, some of the sites of interest aren't very interesting, and some of the notable residents aren't very notable. However, I don't want to start an edit war by deleting someone's favorite place to visit or someone's favorite Playboy model, but those sections need to be trimmed down. Horologium t-c 23:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Horologium I have to say that Boyd Anderson and Nova, are in fact a very important part of the Fort Lauderdale history. Nova because of it's educational values and Boyd Anderson because it was the first high school in the Lauderdale area that integrated the races. That school was the first school to join black and white students. They had to post police officers in the corridors because of racial tensions. Today, black and whites attend with no problems at all and it has one of the best pre college prep agendas. So, I think in fairness these two schools should be included in Fort Lauderdale history. I also feel that all of these lists contained in this article either need to be incorporated into the body of the article or a sub page needs to be created. I do not think it would fit the guidelines yet for a good article nomination. The History section really needs a sentencing restructuring so that it all flows a little better. If I can get some time to work on it, I will be glad to do that. I also want to say that you are doing an awesome job! You deserve cudos all the way around. Junebug52 02:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Getting the red out
I went ahead and delinked a number of redlinked articles, because it is unlikely that anyone is going to create articles for them. North Broward Hospital District and Broward General Medical Center, William Lauderdale, and the Greater Fort Lauderdale Convention and Visitor's Bureau are not flaming hot topics for creation of even a stub. Another editor took care of stubbing up Broward County Transit while pushing the Coral Springs article to B class and a review at WP:GA. With the removal of those and a couple more links, we are down to only three red links on this article: William Cooley, Jim Naugle, and Agogo, Ghana. I will try to throw together a stub on Cooley (since his family's murder resulted in the withdrawal of all of the settlers in the area), but I can't find much useful information on Jim Naugle, the current mayor, which is unquestionably the most important of the three articles. Someone who has access to local media in the Fort Lauderdale area might have more luck than I have here in Gainesville. As for Agogo, Ghana, (one of the city's 15 sister cities) I'll see if I can come up with something on that too. Horologium t-c 03:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agogo, Ghana now has a stub. The German version of Wikipedia had an article, and with a little help from Google translation, I was able to whip up something. It's stubby and ugly, but it's a start, and it eliminates another red link. Horologium t-c 06:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Legionarius has done an outstanding job putting together articles for William Cooley and now Jim Naugle. We have no more redlinks on the page now, which is a sign that the article is getting closer to being ready for reassessment. Legionarius was the prime mover behind getting the Coral Springs, Florida article promoted to Good Article status, so give him a big hand. He was also the editor who created the Broward County Transit stub. Horologium t-c 05:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your kind words. I think Jim Naugle is pretty much done. Surprisingly, there are more good sources for William Cooley than for him (even his official bio is mispelled). The main source was an Interview for the New Times, but all the comments are sourced and NPOV. Things that would be good to have: a better picture and some information about his past elections. I found something, but I concede that all those primaries and pre-primaries are too complicated for me. Legionarius 07:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Famous people subpage needs cites
The new list I set up for famous residents got slapped with an uncited tag 35 minutes after its creation. I spent several hours finding references to 33 of the 36 people on the list. I have found sources for the other three but they are either not reliable (Daisy Berkowitz), not clear if they are actually live in Fort Lauderdale (The Rock) or not suitable for family viewing (Mary Carey). If anyone can come up with some appropriate cites for these three people, have at it. The new list is at List of famous people from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I will wait a week or so before I nuke the uncited names, even if everyone agrees that they belong on the list. They need to be cited. Horologium t-c 05:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Putesky: "Rumor has long persisted in Fort Lauderdale -- where Putesky owns a nice home and can often be spotted in his preferred pastime of doing nothing -- that he was made a millionaire when the suit was settled out of court in 1998."
 * Mary Carey: "Her name is Mary ``Mary Carey'' Cook, a 23-year-old porn star on the ballot ... She's from Florida - grew up in Fort Lauderdale, owns a home in Boca Raton ..."
 * The Rock: "Johnson, a former University of Miami football player, was subpoenaed because he lives in South Florida, Lewis said." He lives in Davie.
 * Not sure if those cites are good enough.--Legionarius 08:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Davie is not Fort Lauderdale :) Cary Bass demandez 14:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * yep Cary, that's what I meant :-)--Legionarius 15:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * They were. Both the source for Putesky and the source for Carey were "genuine" newspapers (although the Carey article is archived), and the appraiser's office source for The Rock convinced me to remove him from the list. I added the cites, removed The Rock, and relisted Putesky under his real name (since that is the name of the Wikipedia article, and the name used more often by the source). Thanks for finding the sources; you are a lot better at digging this stuff up than I am. Horologium t-c 14:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for saying "better" instead of "obsessive" :-D--Legionarius 15:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Las olas pic
I uploaded, but it is not a very good picture.--Legionarius 16:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Languages subhead
I've gone ahead and removed the languages subhead (again) because if and when this article goes up for Good Article status, I expect that there will be a recommendation to remove it, as happened with Coral Springs, Florida earlier this week. GA criterion recommends fewer small sections; that section only comprises two sentences, and fits nicely inside the demographics section without the subhead. For reference see the discussion at the Coral Springs GA nomination here. Horologium t-c 20:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

History
I went in and revised the History area to make it flow better and read easier. I think the order of events are also a little easier to understand to the general reader. Before it seem to me as a group of randon additions. At least now it reads as a chronological guideline. Let me know if it feels good to you.. Junebug52 03:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's better. I am (very slowly) putting together a much more comprehensive history (which I plan to introduce as yet another subpage once it is done), but improving the grammar of the current article has the dual benefit of making the article better now, and providing a more sound base for me to start. (grin) Horologium t-c 03:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

YOU such a sly rabbit! (LOL) Glad I could help! Junebug52 03:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)