Talk:Fort McLoughlin

Campbell Island for sure?
I've always heard that the site of Fort McLoughlin has never been precisely determined; only that it was on Milbanke Sound. Is there more recent research?Skookum1 (talk) 16:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That location info comes from Mackie, and he gives a footnote for it, which simply reads: "Simpson, Narrative, 202; Walbran, British Columbia Coast Names, 152, 45-7, 298." Looking in the bibliography the full name for the Simpson cite appears to be: "Simpson, Thomas. Narrative of the Discoveries on the North Coast of America; Afforded by the Officers of the Hudson's Bay Company During the Years 1836-39. London: Richard Bentley 1843." I'm not sure how much of the location info comes from that and how much from Walbran. As for it being part of today's Bella Coola, I assumed that. If it is wrong please remove. ..in fact, I saw on the Bella Coola, British Columbia page the info, "...a Hudson's Bay fur trading post was set up at the mouth of the river (the land granted to the post forms the off-Reserve portion of the present-day "townsite")...", and assumed this must have been Fort McLoughlin. I added a link to Fort McLoughlin on that page. But looking again I'm not so sure. Bella Coola is on the mainland, isn't it? Not Campbell Island? Perhaps my link there should be removed too. Pfly (talk) 04:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed the Bella Coola link just now-- Bella Bella, British Columbia is what I was thinking of, but got confused because Mackie says the Bella Coola people traded the largest quantities of beaver at the fort. But then, the beaver came from the interior, so naturally it would be the people on the coast rather than on the island who would have the best access. I still can't keep my Bellas straight. Pfly (talk) 05:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Both names are Heiltsuk in origin, which doesn't help, and which is why the Bella Coola prefer their own name Nuxalk'mx (the 'mx ending means "people"). Also in Howay or Begg somewhere there's a comment that on the outer coast and especially in the north "beaver" often meant "sea otter"....why the Bella Coola would have more I don't konw, perhaps they were abundant up the Dean Channel and had been hunted out along the Coast (which by the time of Ft McLoughlin's establishment is a good bet, since the marine fur-trade had been going hell-bent since the Nootka Convention (remember we know only about documented/mentioned voyages).  Beaver's not all that common in the coastal regions - the Bella Coola Valley is tiny, although they have access to the Chilcotin and Nechako Plateaus, and many of their furs could have been traded from the Tsilhqot'in and Dakelh....the few Owekeeno observed - Oyala? - are the remnants of a genocidal massacre by the Heiltsuk in relatively recent times; the numbers also reflect smallpox/measles casualties in more exposed areas....Skookum1 (talk) 03:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Beaver was what was meant in the book, not sea otter. By the 1830s the sea otter populations had nearly collapsed and the bulk of fur trading was in beaver from the interior. Due to higher prices on the coast, beaver fur from the interior was being traded through indigenous networks to the coast. That the Americans were then snapping up beaver furs that originated in New Caledonia was all the more reason to establish Fort McLoughlin. There was sea otter traded too, and some comments in Mackie about which peoples from which inlets acquired the most. But the quote about the Bella Coola having the most beaver was distinctly about beaver not otter. The HBC was rather concerned about this "hemorrhaging" of beaver to the coast, and seemed to take pains to be clear about which furs they were writing about, at least for a while there. Pfly (talk) 04:54, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Tribe names
Mackie may cite the Nuxalk as the main group that traded at Fort McLoughlin but that isn't clear from reading Tolmie. Many of the names of people described in Tolmie later amalgamated and are no longer known by the earlier name. The site of the fort is within Heiltsuk Territory and trade was conducted with a wide range of people. I would challenge the notion that the traders were primarily dealing with the Nuxalk. EVanIsdaitxv (talk) 23:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

19th Century tribe names are an eclectic mix of now-archaic spellings and obsolete terms:
 * ''The Nuxálk, or "Bella Coola" people were the main traders at the fort. Aemilius Simpson, the son of George Simpson, wrote that the fort was near a village of about 500 "Ballabollas" (Bella Bellas, known properly as the Heiltsuk. William Fraser Tolmie, who was stationed at the fort during its early years, wrote about "Quaghcuils" (Kwakwaka'wakw), "Kitamats" (Kitimaat, a Haisla subgroup), and "Chimnseyans" (Tsimshians) trading there, in addition to the Nuxálk. Duncan Finlayson wrote in 1836 that indigenous people trading at Fort McLoughlin included the "Bela hoola", the "Wacash tribe of Milbank Sound", the "Oyalla tribe", and the "Chichysh". Charles Ross, who took over command of the fort in 1842, estimated the local "Billbillah" population at 1,500, and the "Bellwhoola" at 650.[2]

I added Kwakwaka'wakw after "Quaghcuils" but in those times the Wuikinuxv were called "Northern Kwakiutl" so it's hard to know who Tolmie is talking about; the particular Kwagu'ł subgroup of the Kwakwaka'wakw could also be meant, rather than all of them. The "Wacash tribe of Milbank Sound" would be, I'm pretty sure, the Heiltsuk rather than the Wuikinuxv but I guess I should look at the map before being so sure of that; "bela hoola" is standard old-style for Bella Coola/Nuxalk. "Oyalla" would have to be the Wuikinuxv (aka Owekeeno, whose language is Ooweykala/Wuikyala). "Chichysh" - now there's one I haven't heard before and can't think of an equivalent; maybe OldManRivers might have a clue on that one; there's a CJ word meaning "knife" that's similar but "Knife Indians" means the Nlaka'pamux who were southern Interior and didnt' have canoes....might be an extinct Haida or Tsimshian group.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding the links you did-- I wasn't able to make the connections. Mackie doesn't provide anything but the quotes from the time, but I thought it worth adding even if it isn't quite clear who is being talked about. Pfly (talk) 04:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Columbia Department template
There might be a tempalte for Hudson's Bay Company posts, and there's no WP:Fur trade (and I don't have the energy to start one), but a Fur trade posts in the Columbia District and New Caledonia seems like a good idea now, or mabye Fur trade posts in the Pacific Northwest so as to include PFC and RAC and items like Fort Defiance. Thoughts?Skookum1 (talk) 16:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

New resource found
This should have something really good on McLoughlin as well as Taku/Durham and Stikine and maybe Tongass and probably Fort Rupert and certainly Ft Simpson: The fur trade in northwestern development, Frederic W. Howay (1917). Enjoy, I'll dig through the Begg and Howay at historica.ca to find stuff on McLoughlin, there's quite a bit; if you happen to come across any mention fo Fort Berens I've started the article; Fort Dallas (Fraser Canyon) could probably also use starting at some point...but likewise Forts Hope and Yale, or at least suitable sections expanded in those town articles; Ovid Allard's quite the character, keep your eyes open, also Francis Ermatinger (sometimes spelled Frances)..Skookum1 (talk) 03:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Those forts, Berens, Dallas, Hope, and Yale, all seem to be outside the scope of Mackie's book (1793-1843). But I'll keep my eyes open. I downloaded the Howay PDF and will perhaps read it on our next imminent long trip (to Boston this time, egads). There's definitely some interesting stuff on Ermatinger in Mackie. Ovid Allard I haven't heard of. If I find the time (this little burst over the last couple of days is very temporary!), I might try to add some stuff from Mackie to the Fort Langley page (the one about the fort not the town). There's lots of interesting stuff, much about non fur-related operations, the exporting salmon and lumber to Hawaii and so on. Apparently the HBC had no particular restriction to dealing only in furs, but up in Ruperts Land had found no other decent export. It was only in the southern Columbia Department, where the fur trade was never great anyway, where they diversified succcessfully, starting up salmon canneries, sawmills, farms, ranches, tanneries, tallow works, etc etc. Mackie's got tons of info on this aspect of the HBC in the decade or two before the Oregon Treaty, but it is a little tricky figuring out where to put it on wikipedia. Fort Langley seems a good place for some, since it was apparently second only to Fort Vancouver as a profit-making salmon exporter. Later.. Pfly (talk) 05:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

other tribes
The "Wacash of Milbank Sound" may refer to an extinct group of Heiltsuk; I've designated the Xaixais but smoe more digging may turn up someone else. It's interesting there's no mention of the Smith Inlet people, but maybe that's the branch of the Owekeeno at that area that's meant by "Oyalla" (which is clearly Wakashan in anture by that -ala ending). What I wanted to note is that nearby to the Fort and/or Bella Bella are the Haida Islands and Athabaskan Island and the Haida Islands. Although BCGNIS says nothing about these name origins, the Haida Islands probably get their name either from a regular encampment in the area, either to trade with Fort McLoughlin or as a resting place on their raiding journeys southward; the Athabaskans might be the Testsaut but I haven't heard of them having their own canoes or venturing outside their home turf (the head of the Portland Canal). No Tsilhqot'in or Carrier/Dakelh peoples that I know of had canoes or could have accessed this area without one (escept as slaves). Somewhere also there's an account of the uneasy relations between the Bella Bellas and the Bella Coolas during this period; the population figures here also shoudl find their way onto the Bella Bella and bella Coola community/reserve pages.Skookum1 (talk) 20:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)