Talk:Fortriu

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fortriu and Brittones
Could "Fortriu" be cognate with "Britton", "Fort-" ~ "Brit-"?? In the article on the Cruithne / Brittons, it says they were the Picts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 (talk) 23:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, that's phonologically impossible. The Old Celtic form of Fortriu is reconstructible as *Wertur(i)jū, in a Latinised form *Verturiō (n-stem in both languages, i. e., consonantal declination), while the Old Celtic form which Latin Brittones and the like is based on must have been something like *Pritanos or *Pritenos (see Etymology of Britain and Britons): there is no way to connect the two. (Note: What I have called here "Old Celtic" is technically speaking actually an early form of the ancient British language, a kind of P-Celtic, close to the Insular Celtic parent language, and strikingly resembling attested Gaulish. It's roughly what British Celtic would have looked like by the beginning of the Christian era.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:59, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Kings of Fortriu
556-586 Bruide mac Máelchon

Life of St Columba by St Adamnan: "Having said this in presence of Brude, the king, he departed from the royal palace and proceeded to the river Nesa(the Ness);" [Note: St Adamnon transfered St Columba's missionary actives from the river Tay area to the river Nesa area in his version of the Life of St. Columba.]

????-609 Aedan mac Gabhrain?

Vita tripartita Sancti Patricii says: "Patrick received welcome in the district from Erc's twelve sons. And Fergus Mor Mac Erca said to Patrick: "If I am preferred before my brothers in the division of our land, I will offer some to you." And Patrick gave to Bishop Olcan this part—i.e., Airther-Maighe. Patrick said to Fergus: "Though thy esteem with thy brothers is not great to-day, it is thou that shall be king. The kings of this land and of Fortren shall be from thee for ever"; and this is what was fulfilled in Aedan Mac Gabhrain, who possessed Alba by force. Patrick left many cells and establishments in the territory of Dal-Riada."

672-693 Bruide son of Bile, i.e., son of the King of Strathclyde

T686.4 The battle of Dún Nechtain was carried out on the twentieth day of the month of May, a Sunday, in which Ecfrith son of Osu, king of the Saxons, in the 15th year of his rule completed, with magna caterua of his soldiers was killed by Bruide m. Bile king of Fortriu.

T693.2 Bruidhe m. Bile king of Fortriu dies, and Ailpin son of Nechtan.

FA 693 Kl. Bruide son of Bile, king of Foirtriu, died.

U693.1 Bruide son of Bile, king of Foirtriu, dies, and Alphin son of Nechtan

733-761 Oengus mac Fergus

AF727 In this year Aengus, king of Fortrenn, gained three battles over Drust, king of Alban

FA ?733 Áed Alláin son of Fergal defeated Flaithbertach son of Loingsech, king of Ireland, in battle, so Flaithbertach brought a fleet with him from Foirtriu against Cenél Eógain. However, most of that fleet was drowned. Flaithbertach himself died in that year, and the kingship of Ireland was taken from Cenél Conaill for a long time thereafter.

(T733.4 Flaithbeartach led the classem{?} of Dal Riada into Spain and great slaughter was was made of them in the island of Oine, where these men were slaughtered: Conchobhar son of Lochene and Branchu son of Bran and many were drowned in the river called the Bann.)

(Poem by Flann Mainistrech: "The stout battle of Inis Ane against the bearded (?) host of Alba, when there was left, famous exploit, the manning of three hundred boats." AND "The battle of Inis Ane against the hosts of bearded Scots, it was a famous feat, where the men of three hundred galleys were left behind.")

U736.2 The battle of Cnoc Cairpri in Calathros at Etarlinde between Dál Riata and Foirtriu, and Talorgan son of Fergus goes in pursuit of Ainfchellach's son who had taken flight, many nobles falling in this

761-763 Bruide

U763.10 Bruide, king of Foirtriu, dies.

T763.8 Bruidhe king of Fortrenn died.

763-775 Ciniod son of Feredach, of Cenel Loairn?

U768.7 A battle in Foirtriu between Aed and Cinaed

785-820 Constantine son of Fergus

U820.3 Constantine son of Fergus, king of Fortriu, dies.

822-834 Oengus son of Fergus

U834.1 Aengus son of Fergus, king of Foirtriu, dies.

834-836 Drust mac Constantin

Pictish kinglist: "Drest f. Constantin et Talorc f. Uuthoil, 3 years"

836-839 Owen son of Óengus

U839.9 The heathens won a battle against the men of Foirtriu, and Eóganán son of Aengus, Bran son of Óengus, Aed son of Boanta, and others almost innumerable fell there.

Viking attacks continue:

U866.1 Amlaíb and Auisle went with the foreigners of Ireland and Scotland to Fortriu, plundered the entire Pictish country and took away hostages from them.

U904.4 Ímar grandson of Ímar, was killed by the men of Foirtriu, and there was a great slaughter around him.

FA?918 ... the men of Foirtriu and the Norwegians fought a battle. The men of Alba fought this battle steadfastly, moreover, because Colum Cille was assisting them, for they had prayed fervently to him, since he was their apostle, and it was through him that they received faith. For on another occasion, when Imar Conung was a young lad and he came to plunder Alba with three large troops, the men of Alba, lay and clergy alike, fasted and prayed to God and Colum Cille until morning, and beseeched the Lord, and gave profuse alms of food and clothing to the churches and to the poor, and received the Body of the Lord from the hands of their priests, and promised to do every good thing as their clergy would best urge them, and that their battle-standard in the van of every battle would be the Crozier of Colum Cille—and it is on that account that it is called the Cathbuaid 'Battle-Triumph' from then onwards; and the name is fitting, for they have often won victory in battle with it, as they did at that time, relying on Colum Cille. They acted the same way on this occasion. Then this battle was fought hard and fiercely; the men of Alba won victory and triumph, and many of the Norwegians were killed after their defeat, and their king was killed there, namely Oittir son of Iarngna. For a long time after that neither the Danes nor the Norwegians attacked them, and they enjoyed peace and tranquillity. But let us turn to the story that we began.

U918.4 The foreigners of Loch dá Chaech, i.e. Ragnall, king of the dark foreigners, and the two jarls, Oitir and Gragabai, forsook Ireland and proceeded afterwards against the men of Scotland. The men of Scotland, moreover, moved against them and they met on the bank of the Tyne in northern Saxonland. The heathens formed themselves into four battalions: a battalion with Gothfrith grandson of Ímar, a battalion with the two jarls, and a battalion with the young lords. There was also a battalion in ambush with Ragnall, which the men of Scotland did not see. The Scotsmen routed the three battalions which they saw, and made a very great slaughter of the heathens, including Oitir and Gragabai. Ragnall, however, then attacked in the rear of the Scotsmen, and made a slaughter of them, although none of their kings or earls was cut off. Nightfall caused the battle to be broken off.

The Chronicle of the Kings of Alba: "In his 18th. year a battle was fought at Tinemore between Constantine and Rægnald 7, and the Scots won."

Fortriu become at some point the Kingdom of Moray

(In the reign of Maelcolm 943-953) Maelcolam went with his army to Moreb [Moray] and killed Cellach.

Before 1014–1020 Findláech mac Ruaidrí

1020–1029 Máel Coluim mac Máil Brigti

1029-1032 Gille Coemgáin mac Máil Brigti

1032–1057 Mac Bethad mac Findláich

1057-1058 Lulach mac Gille Coemgáin

1058-1078/1085 Máel Snechtai mac Lulaich

????-1130 Óengus

Woolf's argument for Fortrenn being in modern day Moray CANNOT BE SUPPORTED
The first argument is based a miss translation of the line "dar múna i maigh fortrenn". He writes "across the mouth to the plain of Fortriu". However, as those with knowledge of Irish know, that then preposition i followed by the dative form (i.e., maigh) it means 'in' and hence the translation would be "across the mouth in the plain of Fortriu", which is nonsense as the the 'the mounth' is not in a plain. This identifies another problem with his translation. Monadh is used, as commonly found in placenames, can stand for a 'hill'. In this specific case, Sidlaw Hills by Glamis. Hence the first argument does no identify Morayshire with Fortrenn.

The second argument says that Bredei son of Beli’s first appears in the chronicles attacking on Orkney. And so “such an expedition would make sense if Bredei’s heartland lay in the north, than the south of Pictland.” However, Aedan mac Gabhrain’s first appearance in the annals is also an expedition to the Orkneys: AU580.2: Fecht Orc la h-Aedhan mc. Gabrain. Hence this reasoning falls apart.

The third argument claims the OE. Wærteres “the first element of Wertermorum, has been recognized as deriving from a Brittonic development of ancient Uerturiones.” Hence it must mean Fortriu! Yet this placename prefix is common to southern Pictland as well as England and Wales. Whereas ME. Wateres means 'Warder' and underlines why Anglo-Saxon scholars consider OE. Wærteres to mean 'Warder'.

There is no evidence to associate the placement of Fortrenn in Moray-Shire.

Fidach per Sir John Rhys
Sir Rhys points out the place name of Glen-fiddich (as in the whiskey) within the Banffshire, as possibly being related to the Pictish Kingdom of Fiddach. The glen in named for River Fiddich (Scottish Gaelic: Fiodhach / Abhainn Fhiodhaich). Although I suspect Fiodhach is a common enough placename, did Strathearn have a Forrest to rival the Caledonian Forest mentioned by Ptolemy?

Bias Under 'Location' Subheading
Under the 'location' subheading in this article, disproportionate weight is given to the hypothesis that Fortriu existed in the Moray area. The hypothesis that Fortriu existed in the Strathearn area is supported by only a single source. The latter claim should be supported in more detail with additional references to balance the current bias. AdhStreets (talk) 16:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Places associated in the records with the Kings of Fortriu
Dunkeld - "Founded" by Caustantín mac Fergusa, King of Fortriu (d.820)

Dunkeld - Tuathal m. Artgusso, abbot of Dunkeld, was also the chief bishop of Fortriu. (Fortriu is large enough to have more than one Bishop) U865.6: "Tuathal m. Artgusso prim-epscop Fortrenn & abbas Duin Caillenn".

Dundrun in Strathearn, Giric mac Dungal (d.899) attacks it and is slain by the men of Fortriu.

Dupplin Cross (close to Forteviot), with an inscription to Caustantín mac Fergusa, King of Fortriu (d.820) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.235.124 (talk) 18:40, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

St Andrews - "Founded" by Óengus mac Fergusa King of Fortriu, (d.834)

Forteviot - Royal place associated with Óengus mac Fergusa (d.834) and his sons: Eoganán, Nechtan and Finguine Garb.