Talk:Fountain of Time/Archive 1

Article
I disagree with your unilateral decision to move this article from Fountain of Time to Gallery of Fountain of Time. The article is more than just a gallery and is labelled a stub, with the images only forming a portion of the article. This should be moved back to just Fountain of Time. Shsilver 19:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for future improvement, 2 Mar 2009 COMPLETED

 * The discussion is this section is completed. Please do not modify it. The article has changed substantially since these comments were made; and outstanding issues have been included in the following section. No further edits should be made to this section.

Suggestions for improving the article.

During GA review, I made notes of things that, whilst not stopping the article from passing GA, could be used to improve it. I leave the list here for future eds to pick up on; apologies that the notes are a bit rough.


 * Updating my suggestions --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * First pic; could this be formatted better by showing part of the pic, ie make the ratio better and show a clearer image but still link to that nice panorama pic?
 * I shrunk it to 400px.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine now --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The head is a bit choppy and short sentences, and could summarise the article better.
 * Did you take care of this with your re-write?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Partly; I'll go through it again - I guess prose can always be improved--  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * mention "It has its own ventilation system to balance humidity and temperature inside and out to avoid condensation." somewhere BEFORE getting on to the restoration.
 * Which source are you talking about?
 * OK now; before it talked about phases 1 and 2 of the ventillation before mentioning it; now, it's mentioned before. --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Infobox - any way to get rid of the trailing comma after "illinois" (due to line break?) Also, maybe the park should be above the city, as per a standard address, and (outdoor) is prob unnecessary due to pic?
 * Thanks for making me rething that.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Better now --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "it was the first finished art piece made out of concrete" - I know this is taken from the ref, but it makes me wonder why they put the caveat 'finished' (changed during review to 'completed', but the q remains)
 * I like it as it reads in the text. I'll live with the current version of the WP:LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The maps could be improved, and should be a JPEG not a GIF.
 * I saved the image by right clicking on the source file. That is what I got.  You can go to the source and download it and do anything fancy you want to the file.  I am not an expert on image file manipulation.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I will look into that. (I can do graphics stuff) --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw your commentary. I am fine with the map.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Would "Refurbishment" be better than "Restoration" as section title?
 * I think restoration is more commonly used.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, but, I'm now wondering if the title 'Details' is an unnecessary level? I think it is, ie the main sections could be 'Planning','installation', 'design', 'restoration', 'gallery', 'notes', 'external links' - do you agree? --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have followed this suggestion.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe a 'See also' with the sculpter and...?
 * I think that term should be linked in the WP:LEAD. If there is a see also section maybe it should lead to Lorado Taft Midway Studios, which is located on the map at 60th and Ingleside or to other Chicago works such as Fountain of the Great Lakes--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed sculpter is well enough linked within the article --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

"More than 100 figures - including that of Taft in a sculptor's smock - form a crescent made of poured concrete and crushed quartz that wraps around a large reflecting pool." from here (already in refs)
 * Better descr of statues, maybe use "Statues - Soldiers, frolicking children, kissing couples" from here (already in refs), also


 * The words 'statue' and 'fountain' are used throughout; as the fountain (not THE fountain but the fountain) forms part of the whole, perhaps this needs change.
 * I don't understand this point.'
 * I'm concerned that we have used the terms 'statue', 'sculpture' and 'fountain' interchangably, and the word 'fountain' actually only refers to one part of the sculpture - the fact that 'fountain' is in the title is a separate point; so, when we say "the fountain was something", are we using 'fountain' as a short form of 'Fountain of Time', or do we mean the fountain PART of the statue? See what I mean? --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * link from poet?
 * Done (lazily) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 07:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * poem more prominent within the article; more signif given
 * I think the poem is given fair weight in the article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * maybe should mention the other fountains around it, like Crown Fountain does
 * I don't know any other fountains in Washington Park. Jackson Park has a sculpture that is considered important.  I will mention that.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Should I add Lorado Taft Midway Studios to the map?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe. I'll have a look when I look at the pics. --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I added it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "dedicated to the city until November 15, 1922.[2] University of Chicago President Harry Pratt Judson delivered the address at the dedication ceremony at the Midway Plaisance before a short talk by Taft. " improve grammar


 * In Installation, what is Ferguson Trust, and South Park Board ?
 * The trust is described in the preceding section. Will clarify South Park.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Put some pics inline in the article, e.g. to represent the weathering wear on statues etc & taft statue next to related part
 * I think I already did this.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, done --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Make article on Chicago Initiative for links
 * Unclear--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There is currently no article on the Chicago Initiative, and I noticed that there are other WP articles that refer to it; I think it might merit an article, and wondered if the creation of a stub, allowing this article to link to it, might be a good start. --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * gallery maybe better with 2 subsections for before and after, rather than text line to break
 * Not sure what you are saying--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * captions on pics need attention; more meaning on each
 * Is this good?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this needs more attention, if you're going for FA. You improved them to remove the duplication, but 'front left', 'front right' is (IMHO) insufficient. I don't know about your sourcing of the pics, so I don't know how this can be done, but...well, they should really give more detail about each picture
 * I am going to nominate this at WP:MILHIST A-Class review tonight. We can continue this discussion on that talk page.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Remember at the beginning of the GA, I noticed some of the refs where the URL changed when you actually went to the site. I'll fix those. --  Chzz  ►  01:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fix those redirected links
 * Not sure what you are talking about.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * ''The above section is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in the following section. No further edits should be made to this section.

Suggestions for improvement, 14 Mar 2009
Suggestions for improvement


 * The maps could be clearer, and in a better format (ie not GIF). I could perhaps help with that; I can't do SVG, but I can do JPEG; I could take the area colouring from the maps generated and add the names, in a clearer bigger font. I'm sure others could do it better; let me know if you want me to have a go.
 * The optimal map would be one with streets labelled showing the are of the larger map. My online source does not provide streets at this zoom level. If we could get that, we would only need one map.  I have put in a request with the Map Task Force.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:57, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine; I'm quite happy to leave it to the experts, it's fiddly work --  Chzz  ►  16:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope they accept my request. Since it is not for a road article they may not make me a map. I implored them in the name of peace.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe there are ways to improve on the gallery, using DIV so that the number of horizontal tiles is dependent on screen res, rather than fixed. I think that would improve the display. Also something I might be able to try, if you want, let me know.
 * That is an interesting feature, but I think I am going to move the images to commons.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And actually remove them from the article? I think that would be a pity. If you mean hosting them on commons, then that makes no difference to this point.--  Chzz  ►  16:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is going to have trouble at FAC with the gallery.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you sure it's 100 figures, because this site says "more than 100".
 * I am not sure, but other sources say 100. I am not sure what to make of that one.  I need to find a book on Taft.  I may go to the Library on Monday.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I picked up two books at the library.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if it's clear when the article sometimes uses "The Fountain" to refer to "The Fountain Of Time" (e.g. start of 'installation section); it could be misinterpreted to mean "The fountain that is part of the sculpture". This is purely my own view, but I was asked to be picky :-)
 * I have done my best. Another solution would be to use the full name in all instances. I think in the instance you point to since Fountain is capitalized it should be clear.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:11, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the poem should get a quick mention in the Lede as it was responsible for the name and basic design.
 * Done.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm now trying to think of a way to improve the grammar of that bit. I was thinking of changing it to "Inspired by Henry Austin Dobson's poem Paradox of Time, its 100 figures passing before Father Time memorialized 100 years of peace resulting from the Treaty of Ghent in 1814."? In suggesting this, I'm also trying to remove the confusion about the 100 years' issue (ie it wasn't made until over 100 years, etc). If you do prefer that version, feel free to change it, or perhaps you can think of better.--  Chzz  ►  16:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Re. Ferguson - I didn't connect the mention of "funded by Benjamin Ferguson" to the later mention of the Ferguson Trust - could this be cleared up somehow, because in the dedication ceremony section, I didn't know what the Ferguson Trust was (and didn't notice that someone of that name had been mentioned earlier)
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Similarly, I think that 'South Park Board' needs clarification - I don't know what it is
 * I thought this was fixed by the clarification of what South Park was at the time two paragraphs earlier.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I guess 'board' is a fairly generic term; maybe it's ok now. I suppose, ideally, there'd be an article about them. --  Chzz  ►  16:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (From a previous comment) There is currently no article on the Chicagoland Initiative, and I noticed that there are other WP articles that refer to it; I think it might merit an article, and wondered if the creation of a stub, allowing this article to link to it, might be a good start.
 * The captions on the gallery photos could be improved, to give more detail of what each represents, if this were possible.

--  Chzz  ►  17:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I was going to suggest removing the middle two maps as they don't add anything to the article, then discovered this talk string. If they casn be improved great otherwise can I suggest they are deleted --Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a request in a the Maps task force for one map containing the information that I need three maps to describe. However, they mostly do roads, so it will be a long wait if I am ever attended to.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Urban decay?
In the third paragraph there's this sentence: "Time has had to undergo several restorations due to the deterioration and decline caused by the natural elements such as weather and urban decay." This stopped me in my tracks as it makes no sense. How is urban decay a natural element? And how does it directly contribute to the deterioration and decline of the sculpture? I think that what is really meant that is that vandalism increased as its surrounding neighborhood declined. If so, say exactly that, and don't use weasel words like urban decay. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean grime and soot that have led to biological growths, calcium deposits and pollution blackening that have caused deterioration of the sculpture (according to sources). What is a word to describe that?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:20, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

→→Discussion moved to Featured article candidates/Fountain of Time.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)